The truth about guns and loads.
 

Over the last several weeks I've read with interest a number of opinions.... some very strong opinions about "which gun" or "which bullet" to use on certain game. I'd like to express what I feel is the truth on the subject.
There is presently an almost unlimited selection of combinations of caliber, powder, bullet, brass and primers out there. Many but not all of these combinations overlap at a certain distances and under certain conditions. To argue for more than 30 seconds over which is best is a waste of time and breath. What it should be about is how well you and your selected combination perform at the time you squeeze the trigger.
Most big game calibers will make whatever you're hunting.... dead.... as long as you place the bullet in the right location. Bullet placement has always been and will always be the single most important factor in taking whichever animal we hunt. We should spend less time searching for the magic combination and spend far more time on the range learning to shoot that rifle as well as we possibly can.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Hi cdr4thBn,

Welcome to the forum! You couldn't be more correct....that the person behind the gun is usually much more important than the specifics of the caliber, make/model gun, load, etc. But....if you hang out here more than a month or two.....you are going to hear these "arguments" so often that you will eventually do like everyone else:

- Get tired of it...and leave the forum.
- Not feel like "arguing" that particular day...and skip the thread.
- Feel "frisky" that day.....and join the melee.
- Having a "bad day" and lay it on thick.
- Just laugh and join in anyway.

I think those cover most of the options;)!

Anyhow....glad to see you here!

Dave (aka.....akbound)

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

AK,
That is an accurate assessment of the decision process. I had to laugh as I worked my way down the list. IMHO, the smartest folks stick with Number Two. :D
-----------------------------

cdr4thBn,

It is always hard to argue with good shooting however if one makes hunting a "one variable endeavor" then it gets real simplistic, especially given that everyone on an internet forum is an absolute "crack shot."
Before, I put your version of the “truth” on file as my hunting reality, please fill me in a little:

** What is your definition of “big game” and your experience taking said “big game”?

** What is your definition “big game” calibers (cartridges) and what range (low to high) does your (owned or previously owned) “big game” calibers cover?

If we're talking deer, yeah, you can knock them over with a stick. If we're talking big game, then the leeway in the discussion gets considerably smaller. Just looking for a little "experience/objectivity" cross-check before I consider selling the bulk of my rifles and returning to "placing bullets" with my childhood 30-30 that I haven't used for 36 years. :)

Thanks
EKM

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Hey ELKampMaster,

I agree with you about #2....but sometimes we just "can't help ourselves":D! Besides it's a good way to resist the boredoom.

Dave

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Cdr4thBn
You say "Bullet placement is the single most important factor". I agree that it is a very important "factor" and then what are the other "factors" and how important are they?

If you are shooting solid non-expanding 50 gr. bullets from a .223 and you hit a deer in the chest at 200 yards. You have great "bullet placement" but the other "factors" are pretty dismal. The same shot with a 7mm mag and a good 150 grain bullet will give high marks for all "factors" and result in a very dead deer. (not that a 7mm mag. or 150 grain bullet, is needed or the "best" cartridge in this situation).

I think we would all agree that the ability to hit vital organs is very imoprtant. So when we get into cartridge and bullet discussions we are interested in 1. the ability to hit vital organs at long ranges, 2. power to do devistating damage to those organs when a good hit is made (and perhaps the devistation to the animal when a less tham perfect hit is made) 3. the power to do devistating damage to the annimal when the angle through it to vital organs is through a lot of meat and bone.

When a deer is standing broadside feeding at 60 yards, a 150 gr. bullet from an open sighted 30/30 through the ribs will do him in. If the same deer is walking straight away at 200 yards I would rather have a scoped 7mm mag. and a 165 gr. bullet. I would not take this shot with the 30/30.

Robin

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Hi, again, cdr4thBn,

See how easily it gets started[8D]!?!

P.S. By chance....does that stand for Commander, 4th Battalion? (If so...where and which?) Thanks!

Dave

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Akbound,
Many years ago I learned never to go into a fight with less ammo than the other guy. Somehow, I feel that I now understand what you were trying to say.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Infantry (straight leg..we walked to work) battlion Commander.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

I couldn't agree more thats my two cise

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

EKM,
What constitutes a "big game" rifle is another one of those questions that's leads to more endless discussion. A .243 certainly qualifies as a big game rifle, having seen many deer killed with one. However, what will do the job and what is the best tool for the job is another matter.
I leave home on January 15th to hopefully kill an elk in New Mexico. My selection of rifles runs from a .243 through the 7mm category, into the 30 caliber selections. My choice is a 300 Win Mag using handloaded 180 gr.FailSafe bullets @ app.3100 fps. Why? Because that's the best choice for the particular game I'm hunting with the available rifles at hand.
We read in this forum everyday someone touting a particular rifle/caliber over all others. Well folks, I work for a living as do all my friends. I know no one who has financial wherewithall to buy the number of guns that would be needed to satisfy our unlimited wants. Hell, I have more than I need but not as many as I want. Just like everyone else.
Someone else asked me about my background in one of their posts. I answered some of that already but I'll add just one thing. I think if I had to move all the spent brass I've fired in my lifetime it would take a fairly large vehicle to do so.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Spelling should always count.
Last evening, having returned from a holiday party, I posted a couple of replies that contained a few "typos". One should never play with guns or computers while drinking.:D

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

cdr4thBn,Welcome to the board.If any of this bunch gives you any trouble call me and I'll diddy bop on over and choke them with my " Blue Braid".......J/K Like I told a guy we are all legs once we hit the ground.(spent a whole lot of time at Benning:D;) )This is a really good forum here.Sit back and enjoy the ride.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Hey cdr4thBn,

Thanks for the reply.....was Infantry myself....retired in 1994. Sometimes "straightleg"....sometimes "mech" with some time as Drill Instructor, and even an assignment with Combat Systems Test Activity at Aberdeen....all thrown in for good measure. Was in Alaska at retirement time, (yeah....it took nearly 20 years but I finally pulled that assignment). Was Ops Sgt at a Leadership Academy when I finally called it quits. In "97" we headed back to Pennsylvania for family reasons. But, we're headed back to Alaska this upcoming spring/summer.

In retrospect....may have been the "most rewarding" period of my life...employment wise. Unfortunately, circumstances always seemed to conspire to prevent my ever making it to an "airborne unit". But I did follow that dream with civilian skydiving....after retirement. I know, not the same, but the best alternative...after the fact.

Well, once again, welcome to the forum. Looking forward to future exchanges! (Oh by the way...around here insure you have "interlocking fire" and "cover your deadspaces";)!)

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

cdr4thBn,

I never did ask you for your definition of a "big game rifle". Sorry for the confusion. I did ask for your definition of "big game". Reason being is this site is pretty well over run by folks whose hunting experience "maxes out" at deer hunting and they make some interesting extrapolations about big game hunting based on their experiences hunting deer, a fairly marginal/common game animal.

Is your New Mexico elk trip your first for elk? (What a great state!)

Good choice on the 300WinMag with FailSafes for elk, even with a good set up like that one I think you'll be impressed with how (in most cases) an elk handles a "hit" versus how a deer handles a "hit".

Range of rifle cartridges: 6mm to 7mm to heavy 30 cal. Nice rack, not all bunched up like some.

BTW - as long as you are logged in you can edit your posts (by clicking the icon in the top border of the post), either right away or "the morning after". I hardly ever write a post that I don't edit; figure folks shouldn't have to endure poorly written stuff. Much appreciated that you care about it.

Welcome to the boards,
EKM

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Hey, I like you guys.
Some points ....
1. I never, ever saw the sense in jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft only to have somebody shooting at me when I was coming down. Had a good friend (eventually my brigade commander who promoted me) who got shot down three times in one week in Viet Nam doing dust-offs.
2. No, the New Mexico hunt is not my fiirst but my first in New Mexico. Last year I drew a non-resident archery tag in Area 84 of Colorado without a preference point. It was like winning Lotto. The drought was terrible and temperatures in Sept. were in the 90's even at 8000 feet. Subsequently, there was little rut activity.
The year before in Idaho I spent two days doing SAR (Search & Rescue) with the U.S. Forest Service during an elk hunt there in October of '01. A freak early storm dropped about 3' of snow on us and guys were left out there. That was just after we had stood down from the WTC on 9/11. I was assigned to the 53rd Troop Command in Valhalla, NY and the EOC. I got home in time to go hunting and then go searching. I did shoot a couple of nice deer out there.
Montana the year before saw a good hunt with one bull and two mulie bucks taken by our group.
So, as you can see the last few years have seen a lot of the West, before that I did a lot of hunting in the South (North and South Carolina). I've been fortunate to have had the resources to go places and do things, all the while having a wonderful whitetail population right here near West Point.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

In the Air Force we like to say there is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: cdr4thBn

Hey, I like you guys.
Some points ....
1. I never, ever saw the sense in jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft only to have somebody shooting at me when I was coming down.

But it paid more money.:D


That was what I always worried about ,some smart A$$ like me going to shoot me in the boys.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

As one of Jack O'Connor's old Indian guides used to say, whenever the "white men" began to argue over the merits, or lack thereof, of any given caliber/bullet/load, "ANY GUN GOOD, SHOOT 'UM GOOD!!"

You are, of course, 100% correct! But what fun would IT be, if we stopped arguing about such things??

(When I was in AK in the '60's we had the 4th Bn, 9th Inf. (MANCHU'S) there at Ft. Wainwright, part of the 171st Inf. Bde (Mech) to which I was assigned.... "KEEP UP THE FIRE!!")

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

I believe alot of it has to do with people feel inferior if someone else shoots something they don't. They make statements like, "why do you need that gun", or something really silly like "you get meat damage". The craziness goes on and on.

So they get on here yapping on what you should be shooting. Anything I belive with more than 1000ft/lbs of energy at impact over a .243 will do the job. And do it well. I love all calibers. I just love guns.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

.... and so it goes!

EKM

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

If we gave it some thought we'd understand that shooting accurately is purely mechanical. Like putting in golf, shooting pool, or making foul shots in basketball, mechanics and angles play a critical role in our success. We can practice continously at the range but that practice doesn't duplicate the conditions we'll find when we're in the field.
Those ex-military types out there will attest to having gone through training that was made to feel as close to the real deal as could be achieved. Practice doesn't make perfect but perfect practice helps.
Recently, I shot a deer during the black powder season here in NY from a treestand that I refer to as a "deluxe apartment in the sky". This poor critter had zero chance because he walked into view right under my gun which had a proper rest with me in a perfect seated position. It was a benchrest shot.
Now, under the best conditions, we're often hard pressed to find this situation in the field. Elk hunters especially know that elk can and will change zip codes during the day so you cover a lot of ground. Finding a "proper" rest is often difficult if you can find one at all. I'll confess to not liking shooting sticks but they are better than nothing. Holding steady on an animal using your knee or anything else is problematic at best. Compound it by excitement and oxygen debt and you have a formula for a miss. (Notice I didn't say failure.... getting a shot on a bull elk is success enough.)
Learning to steady the muzzle of a rifle within a few degrees is a skill for which we should strive. I'll shot again this afternoon in preparation for that hunt in N.M. but there won't be a bench around, just a sick buddy who'll create "scenarios" for me. It's kind of like playing "H.O.R.S.E." in basketball....... see if you can make this one..... Of course he's the best shot I've ever met.

RE: The truth about guns and loads.
 

Good simulation for the REAL thing!

Congrats on "escaping" from the bench rest, most "elk hunters" never do.

EKM