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“Weak” cartridges, but “recommended” for large animals.

Old 07-08-2024, 09:36 PM
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Spike
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Default “Weak” cartridges, but “recommended” for large animals.

I was able to observe that some projectile brands/manufacturers insert images or texts on their packaging "recommending" a certain cartridge, which, despite being of large caliber, has little energy, for large animals.

I can mention for example the classic 45-70, a low energy cartridge (especially after 100m) being recommended for Mooses, Bisons, Elks, etc... While a 7mm RemMag or a 30-06 has much more energy and its recommendation covers smaller animals in addition to medium and large ones.

I would like opinions or clarifications from you (who will read this topic) about why this happens.
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Old 07-09-2024, 02:50 AM
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Don't confuse energy with velocity. The 45-70, in particular, has a massive slug compared to the other cartridges you mentioned. Even slow, it has a lot of momentum and cuts a wide swath. The factory loadings of 45-70 tend to be anemic due to the age and design of a lot of the firearms which are still around chambered for it. In modern weapons, loaded to its potential, it will drop pretty much anything hit by it.
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Old 07-09-2024, 03:00 AM
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The .45-70 is bad news to any critter in North America.

- jake
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Old 07-09-2024, 03:45 AM
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Amen brother! I took my Bison with my 45-70, along with a whole bumch of wild boar and a whole lot of deer. If I had not jammed the rifle by short stroking it the day before my elk hunt I would have taken my elk with it as well, I had to use my guide's o6 for my elk. I wonder it the op has any idea of how many bison were taken with the 45-70 back in the market hunting for Buffalo days. Hornady and Buffalo Bore 45-70 cartridges pack a wallop that will drop pretty much all big game in North America as has been already said. Weak cartridge not suitable for big game,I think not. BTW, the plural for moose is moose, not mooses! PS, the 45-70 will efficiently kill any animal you have in Brazil as well'

Last edited by Oldtimr; 07-09-2024 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 07-09-2024, 02:56 PM
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Don't be fooled by kinetic energy. Kinetic Energy is not conserved in real world, inelastic collisions... However, MOMENTUM is conserved in real world collisions, and momentum is simply mass times velocity - so when a 45-70 reaches 200 yards, it's actually hitting ~20% harder than a 308win...
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Old 07-10-2024, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Wingbone
Don't confuse energy with velocity. The 45-70, in particular, has a massive slug compared to the other cartridges you mentioned. Even slow, it has a lot of momentum and cuts a wide swath. The factory loadings of 45-70 tend to be anemic due to the age and design of a lot of the firearms which are still around chambered for it. In modern weapons, loaded to its potential, it will drop pretty much anything hit by it.
I'm not confusing. Data taken from Federal Premium:

7mm RemMag 175gr: 100 Y (2720j) - 200 Y (2316j) - 300 Y (1961j) - 400 Y (1649j) - 500 Y (1377j)

45-70 GVT 300gr: 100 Y (1731j) - 200 Y (1307j) - 300 Y (1003j) - 400 Y (804j) - 500 Y (681j)

What you mean, however, is that momentum is more important in the lethality of a cartridge than kinetic energy.?
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Old 07-10-2024, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomercy448
Don't be fooled by kinetic energy. Kinetic Energy is not conserved in real world, inelastic collisions... However, MOMENTUM is conserved in real world collisions, and momentum is simply mass times velocity - so when a 45-70 reaches 200 yards, it's actually hitting ~20% harder than a 308win...
It's interesting that you mention "Momentum", I'm a ballistics enthusiast, and I had forgotten about this factor in this area of ​​physics. I'll research more about this.
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Old 07-10-2024, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomercy448
Don't be fooled by kinetic energy. Kinetic Energy is not conserved in real world, inelastic collisions... However, MOMENTUM is conserved in real world collisions, and momentum is simply mass times velocity - so when a 45-70 reaches 200 yards, it's actually hitting ~20% harder than a 308win...
It's interesting that you mention "Momentum", I'm a ballistics enthusiast, and I had forgotten about this factor in this area of ​​physics. I'll research more about this.
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Old 07-11-2024, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DR015
What you mean, however, is that momentum is more important in the lethality of a cartridge than kinetic energy.?
Yes. Kinetic energy has no direction. It defines the energy present when a projectile strikes the target. Momentum is what carries it forward from there. Momentum is governed by mass. A light bullet will calculate out to a lot of kinetic energy. But it dumps a lot of energy on impact. A heavier bullet will retain its energy. A lot of buffalo were killed by heavy, slow, lead bullets.

Last edited by Wingbone; 07-11-2024 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 07-11-2024, 06:46 PM
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Lets put it even more simply. How do you think millions of big game animals such as Elk, Moose, Bison, Caribou, Brown Bear, Black Bear, and so on and so forth were killed before the almighty magnum rounds came into existence? Hell, look at the millions upon millions of other big game across the planet that were killed were killed before the advent of even rifled barrels and smokeless powder! People get too hung up on the latest and greatest speed demon cartridge of the day. You don't think the .50 BMG gets it's power to take out an engine block at over 1000 yards from speed do you? Takes a lot of resistance to slow the momentum of 600+ grains of bullet. You get that kind of weight up over 2000fps and it becomes a freight train,

I'll have to hunt for it but I recently saw video of a guy using sub sonic .458 socom ammo and dropping hogs at over 200 yards and the bullet passing through! And it wasn't a small hog. Was at minimum 220 pounds. Was a boar and it went straight through both shoulders. Can't remember if it was 350 or 400 grain bullets used but whichever it was it was the hammer of Thor dropping it where it stood.
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