“Weak” cartridges, but “recommended” for large animals.
 

I was able to observe that some projectile brands/manufacturers insert images or texts on their packaging "recommending" a certain cartridge, which, despite being of large caliber, has little energy, for large animals.

I can mention for example the classic 45-70, a low energy cartridge (especially after 100m) being recommended for Mooses, Bisons, Elks, etc... While a 7mm RemMag or a 30-06 has much more energy and its recommendation covers smaller animals in addition to medium and large ones.

I would like opinions or clarifications from you (who will read this topic) about why this happens.

Don't confuse energy with velocity. The 45-70, in particular, has a massive slug compared to the other cartridges you mentioned. Even slow, it has a lot of momentum and cuts a wide swath. The factory loadings of 45-70 tend to be anemic due to the age and design of a lot of the firearms which are still around chambered for it. In modern weapons, loaded to its potential, it will drop pretty much anything hit by it.

The .45-70 is bad news to any critter in North America.

- jake

Amen brother! I took my Bison with my 45-70, along with a whole bumch of wild boar and a whole lot of deer. If I had not jammed the rifle by short stroking it the day before my elk hunt I would have taken my elk with it as well, I had to use my guide's o6 for my elk. I wonder it the op has any idea of how many bison were taken with the 45-70 back in the market hunting for Buffalo days. Hornady and Buffalo Bore 45-70 cartridges pack a wallop that will drop pretty much all big game in North America as has been already said. Weak cartridge not suitable for big game,I think not. BTW, the plural for moose is moose, not mooses! PS, the 45-70 will efficiently kill any animal you have in Brazil as well'

Don't be fooled by kinetic energy. Kinetic Energy is not conserved in real world, inelastic collisions... However, MOMENTUM is conserved in real world collisions, and momentum is simply mass times velocity - so when a 45-70 reaches 200 yards, it's actually hitting ~20% harder than a 308win...

I'm not confusing. Data taken from Federal Premium:

7mm RemMag 175gr: 100 Y (2720j) - 200 Y (2316j) - 300 Y (1961j) - 400 Y (1649j) - 500 Y (1377j)

45-70 GVT 300gr: 100 Y (1731j) - 200 Y (1307j) - 300 Y (1003j) - 400 Y (804j) - 500 Y (681j)

What you mean, however, is that momentum is more important in the lethality of a cartridge than kinetic energy.?

It's interesting that you mention "Momentum", I'm a ballistics enthusiast, and I had forgotten about this factor in this area of ​​physics. I'll research more about this.

It's interesting that you mention "Momentum", I'm a ballistics enthusiast, and I had forgotten about this factor in this area of ​​physics. I'll research more about this.

Yes. Kinetic energy has no direction. It defines the energy present when a projectile strikes the target. Momentum is what carries it forward from there. Momentum is governed by mass. A light bullet will calculate out to a lot of kinetic energy. But it dumps a lot of energy on impact. A heavier bullet will retain its energy. A lot of buffalo were killed by heavy, slow, lead bullets.

Lets put it even more simply. How do you think millions of big game animals such as Elk, Moose, Bison, Caribou, Brown Bear, Black Bear, and so on and so forth were killed before the almighty magnum rounds came into existence? Hell, look at the millions upon millions of other big game across the planet that were killed were killed before the advent of even rifled barrels and smokeless powder! People get too hung up on the latest and greatest speed demon cartridge of the day. You don't think the .50 BMG gets it's power to take out an engine block at over 1000 yards from speed do you? Takes a lot of resistance to slow the momentum of 600+ grains of bullet. You get that kind of weight up over 2000fps and it becomes a freight train,

I'll have to hunt for it but I recently saw video of a guy using sub sonic .458 socom ammo and dropping hogs at over 200 yards and the bullet passing through! And it wasn't a small hog. Was at minimum 220 pounds. Was a boar and it went straight through both shoulders. Can't remember if it was 350 or 400 grain bullets used but whichever it was it was the hammer of Thor dropping it where it stood.

Yes, quite directly so. Kinetic Energy is converted into several different things in real world, inelastic collisions - and even LOST. Because Kinetic Energy is NOT conserved in real world, inelastic collisions.

Momentum, alternatively, IS conserved. And unlike Kinetic Energy, momentum does not overvalue velocity over mass by squaring the velocity vector - such high KE rounds can "cheat" their way to high KE by traveling very fast, but a bullet cannot lie about its potential when reviewed in terms of momentum, which equally values mass and velocity.

Momentum is not "governed by mass." But rather, Momentum is NOT governed by velocity, as is Kinetic Energy. Momentum values mass and velocity equally - if we double mass at the same velocity, we double momentum. If we double velocity at the same bullet mass, we double momentum. For kinetic energy, if we double mass at the same velocity, we double KE, but if we double velocity of the same bullet weight, we quadruple the KE... Which might make sense in terms of overall Work potential (KE(in) vs. KE(out)), but again, since KE is converted to a lot of different forms, AND because KE is LOST in inelastic collisions, we can't actually use KE to quantify work done in inelastic collisions, we have to come back to momentum, and then calculate the KE(out)....

not much into the science of terminal ballistics but my 458 socom running a 300 gr hp at around 2000 fps will ruin about anythings day inside of 150 yards.

It pencils out the same. But it's a lot easier and more practical to double the mass than double the velocity.

If you really want to pull the absurdism here, let's talk about how "easy" that really is - It gets pretty hard to double mass while holding velocity constant, just as hard as doubling velocity...

If I can get a 55grn bullet up to 3400fps in a measly little 5.56, what do you have that gets a 110 up to 3400? It's a hell of a lot more powder to get there - a magnum case, typically a long action, eating more than twice as much powder... If I can get a 200grn bullet up to 2600 in a 30-06, what cartridge case do you need to get at 400grn bullet up to 2600? Even a 416 Rigby doesn't get there, eating around twice as much powder... If I want to double velocity, I can start with a 357mag with a 158 at 1250 and swap to a 308win which pushes a 160 to 2500... I can swap from a 300grn 44mag at 1300 to a 375 H&H which pushes a 300 to 2600...I can pick up a 22LR with a 40grn bullet at 1250 and replace it with a 22 Hornet which gets the 40grn bullet up to 2800, or heck, I can stick it into a 223rem case and get a 40grn bullet up to 3750, TRIPLING the velocity for a fixed bullet weight... So we can do either double mass or double velocity, and neither are actually very sensible comparisons...

But the fact remains - momentum equally values mass and velocity, and is not "governed by mass" any more or less than it is "governed" by velocity. Pretty hard to disregard the simplicity of "Mass x velocity"...

Okay, I can now see why Dad always said "I really like that kid but his math brain makes my head hurt"! And considering he was pretty dang smart in math that was saying a lot!

"The Redneck Einstein!"

The trick to reading no mercy's posts is to skip to the end and read the last paragraph or two where he generally summarizes what it all means lol.

- jake

The thing about this thread is that is that there are several people responding that have experience , years worth of experience using these so called "weak cartridges "and understand that the information on the box is not the end of the story . The op apparently has zero experience with them and is using the data on the boxes to make a decision. This issue is a good example of "the proof is in the Pudding not the interpretation of the recipe.! I will add this, I have taken at least 8 deer with my 45-70, I don't do notches or memorial every kill I make so I could be a number or two off either way , every one of those deer went down like it was pole axed including the one I took last season. I have had very few deer go down like that when I was using my .308 or .270. In addition what I have found, meat damage is substantially less with the 45-70 that the other two calibers.

Magazines and other new media don't help either.

They get paid to tout the newest greatest thing. That's where the money is.

- jake

True that!

I couldn't find the video I was speaking of earlier but I did find another one of a guy taking 3 doe with sub sonic 500+ grain lehigh controlled fracturing. All over 100 yards, all pass through with slow motion impact and with the last one he found the slug in the base of the tree that was behind the deer. Just goes to show how you absolutely do NOT need the latest greatest magnum cartridge. All three of these shots, the doe didn't even slow the bullet down. Just punched right through. The first 2 you can see the ground strike behind the deer. It's really all about bullet design more than it is speed. The Lehigh CF bullets have pedals that shear off inside the cavity and the slug (which is most of the weight of the bullet) pounds on through. My sister has dropped a few deer with Bloodlines which if I have been told correctly are pretty much the same design. I know for a fact every deer she has hit with them from 48 yards out to over 200 has fell within 50 yards of impact (most dropped right there) and this was with a .50cal muzzleloader. I tend to make my own conical bullets for my sidelocks and, depending on what hardness I tin them to, I will generally get pass through performance as well. Now If I go with less tin then they are pretty soft and expand quickly, dumping a ton of energy into the deer which causes shock trauma. If I'm anywhere near CNS this is a dropping shot. Anyway, here is the video I found. Maybe actually seeing what we are talking about will inform you.

excellent example of what I see with my so called weak rounds, the 45-70 Lever Evolution bullets

seeing the bullet in flight was pretty cool.

45-70 is one of the best rounds to take any large North America I typically shoot 500 grain HC and have taken everything from bison, elk, bears, deer and all in between down. The other thing it has been around for over 150 years for that reason.

Very good post and answers. I have killed many deer with my 45-70, and it's probably my favorite rifle. I wouldn't be afraid to use it on any N.A. game animal. Also, if I were in a situation where I was being charged by a huge brown bear from close range, I would rather have the 45-70 or a 12 gauge with heavy slugs than a 7mm mag, 30-06 or any other such cartridge.

Ive hunted for decades with mostly 340 wby and 375 H&H rifles, but the camp BACK-UP rifle we packed for decades was a marlin 45/70 loaded with a hard cast 400 grain bullet over 49 grains of IMR 3031 and a 215 fed primer, thats stout but several grains lower that the max listed powder charge.
over several decades many guys found they had fogged scopes or broken scope mounts , etc.
and they were more or less forced to use the camp back up rifle, that 45/70 was sighted in at 3.5" high at 100 yards ... that rifle made a whole bunch of people believers in that 45/70 as an elk and mule deer gun.. enough so that several guys purchased one themselves, after using it and seeing how well it worked in the conifer and aspen where we very seldom saw game past 175 yards.
yes the magazines all promote the newest super wizz bang magnums in 6.5mm, -30 caliber, but most of the experienced hunters, in my group, have seen what cartridges like a 35 Whelan or a 45/70 or 450 marlin have done to deer and elk, in fact I'm the last old geezer , in that group,that still hunts with a magnum 375 H&H sako carbine, almost everyone else has swapped to a 308 win or 358 win blr or a cartridge like a 338/06 or 35 Whelan years ago! my carbine looks very similar to this
https://garage.grumpysperformance.co...d9a652d83ca7bc