Bears--Got Enough Pistol??
 

There was an old 2010 topic about what pistol caliber is enough for bears in this same sub forum. Although that topic was more slanted towards what pistol to wear while bow hunting in bear country, it's also an intriguing topic for hikers, people scouting, riding horseback, bicycles into rough country and those of us who are gutting an animal when rifle hunting and our rifle is leaning against a tree, etc.

With that said, I'll open the ball with the info and link below. What do you think, agree with or don't agree with? No real wrong answers as each of us is going to have an opinion about what level of chance we're willing to take or not. Personally, I like the 44 Mag stats for any bear but would feel comfortable with a 41 mag or 10mm for black bears.

Below quoted stats from article at the link at the bottom.
Dean Weingarten wrote a comprehensive article at Ammoland.com about real world pistol encounters with different kinds of bears and the results. I know we all have our preferences and comfort zones but some of the results might surprise you. I'm writing a summary by caliber but strongly encourage anybody interested to follow the link below and read the individual accounts. Some were black bears, some grizzly and some were brown bears.

9mm--4 cases, all successfully stopped the attacks.
.357 Mag--3 cases. 2 were successful, 1 was not.
.40 caliber--3 cases. All were successful.
10mm--1 cases. It was successful.
41 Mag--2 cases. Both were successful.
44 Mag--12 cases. All were successful.
45 caliber--4 cases. All were successful.
45 Super Pistol--1 case. It was successful.
454 Casull--1 case. It was successful.





https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz7EDZwk600

my 2 cents, you cannot just claim any caliber, and think you will have like success, every case has different variables
from what BULLET was used, which is a HUGE deal when dealing with dangerous game
what condition the animal was in when shot
considering most all bear charges are BLUFF"S, if were being honest here
how many ATTACKS were bluffs and or full on attacks , and WHY were they being attacked, were animals injured, were cubs involved, was bear starving or other wise injured before this attack, or were injuries caused , causing the attack
what SIZE was the bear
there are just so many differences here, no one can say "X" caliber will work 100% of the time!

then add in what experience the shooter has, HOW was the shooter before attack, was gun in hand, was gun in a holster, and so on!

Bears have been killed with 22 caliber guns, some times LUCK plays a BIG role in the outcome more than caliber and experience does, again IF were being honest!

typically the name of the game in dealing with any dangerous game animal, is , simple
you use the biggest caliber , with the best FOR ANIMAL bullet, that you can shoot well and handle recoil well

after that, when in an attack, it sort of comes down to LUCK IMO
adrenaline does a LOT of weird things to humans, including ruining how well we shoot!

as also, keep in mind folks, a bear attack is a super, super rare thing to have happen, even in heavy populated high density bear places!
heck in places like AK and BC< as a FACT, your more likely to get attacked by a Moose than a bear by a LARGE percentage!

and keep in mind, we are human and as such, that means, we can make mistakes and not be ready if when an attack comes, , BLAH BLAH BLAH!
I have read many books on bear attacks as well as talked personally to a few folks that have been in attacks and lived! they all told me LUCK mattered more than there shooting skills did!

and for decades I have been about guns and big game being shot with calibers from tiny .22's to Big 50 bmg and some larger bore calibers! in more than a hobby way!

have seen "X" animal , be it a bear, deer , elk, ???
shot with them BIG guns and run and live a long time, and have seen same animals shot with 22's drop in there tracks
Bullet placement and what it hits matters period, and why archery gear works!

my rule of thumb in big bear country is again using the larger caliber I can handle well, and shoot both with strong and WEAK hand, and its loaded with bullets made for the task!
'd also carry bear spray too!

been in AK and other places with big bears, have been up close and personal with so many bears folks wouldn;t believe me, or all the things I have done with them!(i have crawled into ear dens with sow's and there cubs!)

and to date, NEVER had a single issue with one, using bear SMARTS in BEAR area's , IMO< is one of the best things to learn before you go, into them places
as they knowledge is power,
bears are not out to eat you 99.9 % of the time, to be honest to bears we humans STINK< and they do there best to avoid us
far too many people fear what they don't know , which can lead to BAD results IMO!
I don;r fear bear's, even the BIG one's
I do however RESPECT them!
for what they are
but I spent time learning about them to know what I know! and recommend anyone venturing into BIG bear country to spend there share of time learning about them, over just relying on shooting skills and "X caliber hand guns
lots of ways to AVOID a bear attack, over worrying about being in one IMO!

also, the link you posted, shows results of successful encounters, , doesn't say SQUAT about those really that were not
being I am personal friends with a few bear guides in AK<
I can tell you many of the same calibers listed DIDN:T work , too!
so to me its false leading in a way, that can lead to someone having more confidence than maybe they should with :"X caliber!

Ill add this too, just cause I have time to kill
but many yrs back, (mid 1990") there was a book written where they did a detailed study events on bear attacks in AK, some 100+ attacks,
and the thing that stood out MOST on bear attacks , as to those that survived and those that didn't
came down to the size of the bear
any bear that coudl fit your WHOLE head in its mouth, and shake you, died, those that the bear could get a solid grip on there had lived!
seemed most that the bear g=could get a solid grip on died from broken necks too!
after a 100+
that was the ONLY stand out deal maker or breaker!
also the attacks, were from startling a bear, to injured bears to sows with cubs, to starving one's!
the attacks were all over on WHY!

pepper spray was new but mace and other things were used in some attacks,. , but fighting back, playing dead, shooting or??
there wasn't a one way or the other to survival that stood out, there were as many that died, doing the play dead, fighting back and so on, it didn;t show merit to do any,
YOUR call! LOL
again this was info from the mid/late 90's and was considered at the time, valued info, by many great bear biologists!,
take as you wish!

Those are good points. The state of the animal (agitated or attacking or not) would likely play a big role in what it takes to scare off or kill the bear. While nothing is 100% guaranteed, I would expect to make an educated guess as to what I would prefer to carry. Bear spray would be nice if it worked but I'd want something else if the bear spray didn't work.

I look at the situation a little differently. In a panic situation I'm not looking for a one-shot kill with a pistol. A 30-30 has almost twice the energy as a 44 mag at the muzzle and IMO a 30-30 sure wouldn't be my first choice against a Bear. I consider the 30-30 to be a medium rifle.
The SAS taught the double-tap, at least two rounds to the chest with a 9mm. The Police pretty much train to empty the magazine. The military trains to put at least three in a person with a .556. A Bear is likely a lot harder to stop than a man.
A 44 special has a third of the recoil of a 44 mag. Makes sense you could get more aimed rounds off with a 44 special than a 44 mag in the same amount of time. Probably even more with a 9mm. As the size and velocity of the bullet goes up, the second round shot slows down. The point is I'm not just thinking about the size and energy of the pistol round I'm also thinking about how many hits (or misses :) ) I can get off in the shortest amount of time, 20 MPH is 30 feet a second. I've put a lot of rounds out of a Ruger 44 mag, it would not be my first choice for a quick second shot. Two old sayings come to mind, near misses only count in horseshoes and hand grenades, and as long as it is still wiggling it is still dangerous.
I've only had one bad encounter with a Black Bear and it was more interested in intimidation than actually attacking and two encounters with Cougars. One Cougar attacked and the other was stalking me and my dogs. I put 2x3 (6) number 4 birdshot into that Cougar before I was satisfied it was dead.

I thought this topic was about what pistol would or could kill a bear if needed. Or at least dissuade a bear from attacking further. From your posts mrbb, it sounds like you are talking more about hunting a bear with a pistol specifically which is something entirely different. I agree a large caliber rifle or a 12 gauge with slugs is preferred but this topic seems to be about what to carry if you're only carrying a pistol while hiking, biking, fishing or field dressing an animal and your rifle is not immediately next to you. I guess you can say that a pistol has not always worked against bears. The article above mentioned something like a 3% failure rate of the cases examined. The article didn't say that it only looked for successful cases and not failures. I would imagine one could find cases where bear spray, rifles and shotguns didn't work also. The point I took away is that a pistol can work if you place your shots well and timely. Or you can bring along your personal howitzer.

I'm sorry if you mis took what I posted as I most certainly posted about pistol calibers, or why you think I was talking a bout hunting them as I wasn't at all! as a FACT I only mentioned rifle calibers to show that there is NO magic bullet in them either!
as its NOT just the caliber that matters, not sure why that fact missed you, but the BULLET used makes HUGE difference in how it performs or doesn't on a big hairy thick skinned and boned animal!
a simple example is, if you carry a 9 amm as loaded with personal defense ammo, your not going to be very happy with what it does to a BIG bear unless you get LUCKY, the bullets for self defence are BNOT made for hunting and there are reasons why I stated the BULLET matters maybe more than the caliber, BUT nothing replaced WHERE the bullet ends up!

and to post a information that mostly ONLY shows success can lead folks into bad corners!
I have a ton of time along some of the best bear biologists in the world, so, I have some experience on bears many here don't, I am NOT claiming to be any expert, but I sure have a LOT of experience dealing with bears in many aspects!
I also have personal experience talking to folks that HAVE been attacked by bears,!

I think we did this before. You posted a long couple of posts that go all over the map and then I posted something about the OP topic. You responded that I must have misunderstood you and missed stuff. I posted back about more specifics and it ended up in some kind of draw.

If you want to post some reference material on the OP topic, I will surely read it as this is an interesting subject. But if you're going to continue telling me about your anecdotal information gleaned from all of your contacts in the bear hunting and bear biology world, I'll respectfully pass. I'll give you the part about ammo choice since the OP article didn't state what type of ammo was used. If i were to guess, I'd say the lighter mainly CCW calibers (9mm, 357, 40 smith and 45) prolly used regular CCW carry ammo designed for people. Most of the people I know who carry 10mm's seem to favor the heavy stuff. I don't think there are any lightweight rounds in 41 or 44 mag but I'm sure you'll tell me if that's wrong. although any gun is better than no gun, after reading the article and thinking about the results, I think I'd prefer to carry a 10mm or one of the magnums with appropriate ammo.

The fact of the matter is that anecdotal information is not evidence. If I am going to take information as gospel it has to be information that came from specific testing on the specific animal in question.

well if information from experts in the bear hunting world and bear biology world, do not mean anything to you, SORRY, but ti might to others!
as I already know you don;t like me, and that's OK<no one says you have too!


and I stated the BULLET used matters not just caliber of it!
and its not as easy as saying what caliber, and NOT knowing what ammo was used in the attacks, is a BIG detail that is missing and should be valued as important info if its being sued to recommend a caliber handgun for bear attacks!

as again the 22 rim fire has been PROVEN to kill bears even when in attacks
here is something to read since you asked for links
but I wouldn't suggest to someone to carry a 22 in big bear country for protection, yes better than nothing maybe, but?? even as proven to work in below!



Bear Attacks & 20 Instances of .22 Rimfire Used for Survival

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/10/bea...#axzz7EJT9VmOY

Actually a really good subject, my position is I want the most powerful pistol I can handle with the ability to get off multiple rounds quickly. The reason being is that the most or more powerful pistols are generally pretty tame when to compared to most rifles. IMO the only way you are going to put it down is with multiple shots. I grant you most of my experience is with Hogs and not Bears, but they both can come in XXL and can generally be tough to kill. I've been switching between .357 and 44 special as my hunting sidearm of choice. And have been wondering if there may be a better choice. The Brown Bear is making a come back in the areas where I usually do my vacation hunts. PPPPPP prior planning prevents pizz poor performance :) has always been one of my mantras.

I think you're misreading things now. I don't like you or dislike you. I do read what you post. Some of it is good and some of it wanders like stream of consciousness style writing. A lot of people write that way but it's hard to decide what their final point or conclusion is about anything. And most of the time, you talk about what others have told you instead of your own experiences. If you write about your experiences, I can ask you follow-up questions. If you write about what "others" have told you, well, I have no idea of their knowledge base or experience level and can't very well ask them follow-up questions to determine what exactly they think or not.

I'll read what a biologist has to say about bears because it might give me pointers about how to find them better. I don't read what biologists say about shooting and killing bears because most of them don't hunt or even kill problem bears (a warden usually does that). I'll read what guides and hunters personally say about their experiences in hunting bears and killing them but am careful about people just saying what guides and other hunters told them. If somebody is repeating a hunt or experience as is, I can see the value. If a person is summarizing what guides and hunters think, I don't see as much value.

The info on killing bears with a .22 was interesting, okay it was fascinating, but, I wouldn't risk that personally. From all of the information I've read about killing bears with a pistol, I'd still want at least a 10mm and preferably a 41 or 44 mag. Since the main thrust of the OP article was about using a pistol in bear country for protection (not hunting bears), a pistol in one of those calibers makes sense. They can be worn in a hip or chest holster so there's no excuse not to have your pistol with you whether you're field dressing an animal or fly fishing in a creek somewhere. Those calibers can be shot very accurately within 25+ yards and are capable of punching through a bear skull with heavier loads if the bear is charging you. And if you're carrying a Glock 20 in 10mm, well, you might be surprised at how many rounds you can fire at closer ranges, even if you're shooting the heavier 200-220 grain heavy rounds.

i'VE USED A s&w 10" 44 MAG FOR MOST HANDGUN HUNTS
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/293ss&w.jpg
BUT A SERIOUS STEP UP IS THE dwsm IN 445, WHICH CAN COME VERY CLOSE TO 454 cassul ballistics
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/july18/445rt.jpg
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...evolvers.1992/

Run up, get done up!

Bruin Country:


Grizzly/Brown Country:

Man, this topic is almost like talking about abortion. :lolabove:

NM, is that a Glock 10mm in your picture?

Nope, just a 9x19 G19. Bruins aren’t terribly big, aren’t terribly aggressive, and worse than any aspect of their own, tend to inhabit areas much more frequented by two legged threats.

A black bear cannot take a bullet as well as a whitetail, they are not at all hard to kill.

Thanks Ridge Runner. Kind of what I was looking for. I don't carry a 9 for protection from bears but think some bigger caliber pistols would work, especially since I'm in black bear country.

I will have to disagree, of the 40+(didn;t keep count) or so bears was part of being shot, I seen many take several rifle hits and keep on trucking when NO vitals were hit!
that lead to either a lost bear or a lot of tracking at times and many times more shot/shot's, to finish them off!(again pending shooter, some guys get excited and accuracy goes out the window sadly)

I hunted with a large group of bear hunters that killed 5-7+ bears every yr for many yrs!, granted many took BAD shots at RUNNING bears
but the simple fact it, they were HIt and kept going many times, so will Not call them any less willing to take a bullet over a deer
both can run afar if they get a bad hit on them
seen many bears live for a while with 3 legs and such after being shot or injured from?? and survive
the will to survive isn't any less on bears than deer IMO!

and keep in mind there is a BIG difference in how much body you have to drive a bullet thru , between a 150 lb bear and and a 500+ lb one! add in possible pissed doff animal(as in attaching you)
which will have adrenaline a pumping and a whole different mind set than a bear wondering the woods unaware of a hunter hunting them!

Sounds like ya got it all figured out! bears are really hard to kill if ya hit them wrong?
I can assure you having personally shot 14 myself and watched around a hundred being taken, you put the bullet where it needs to be and its all over for mr. blackie!

It seems like this topic is devolving into each person's personal experiences with which can arguably be different than another person's. For example, in my personal experience, hunting black bears with a 270 works well. I haven't got a bear with the non leaded ammo (TTSX) but have had very good performance with Remington's 270 Core-Lokt 130 grain. I haven't shot a bear with a pistol but am currently looking for a pistol, caliber & ammo that I consider sufficient. I don't plan on hunting blackies with just a pistol but want to have a backup pistol for when I'm field dressing deer, scouting or changing out SD cards in game cameras. At this point, I am thinking a Glock 10mm to begin with and then transition into a Ruger 41 or 44 mag. But that's just me.

I have read a lot of online information from several people who guide and/or hunt a LOT of black bear, some of them over 100 black bear kills. All of those people seem to think a 10mm, 41 or 44 mag are good black bear pistol calibers for hunting. If a black bear was charging me, I like the crumple effect of a 44 mag with heavy bullets (not JHP) but can also see the value of multiple shots from a Glock 10mm platform since I have extensive experience with Glocks in 9, 40 and 45 calibers.

In reading this topic, people are all over the map on calibers and guns. It looked like everybody is talking about black bears since grizzlies/browns would admittedly be a different subject and consideration. Most of the posts appear to be about hunting bears, not stopping bear attacks. The posts don't specify what style of hunting as in spot and stalk, using hounds to tree a bear or ambush from a tree stand, etc. Each of these methods could present a bear more switched on or not. The posts also don't list a breakdown of bears killed by pistols versus rifles. Mrbb brings up the topic of appropriate ammo but with the members who have posted, I honestly don't think any of them are using JHP ammo designed for people. Each of them is a hunter and I would bet money they used the best hunting bullet(s) available.

Mrbb mentioned many of his hunters taking running shots on bears which is kind of iffy since bears run pretty fast and most people suck at running shots (don't ask me how I know that specifically about black bears). He also mentioned many of his hunters' shots didn't hit vitals. That is also a recipe for a wounded bear or pretty much any other animal getting away. I realize mrbb has other bear experiences and obviously did not have personal control over the quality of shots taken by the group he hunted with. None of us really do. But, people who take bad shots, especially at running animals that are obviously in some kind of flight or fight response, aren't representative of or useful to those of us who plan on taking good shots. And if a black bear is running towards me, it's as many shots at the head and torso/chest area as I can manage. And if it's with a Glock, I can get off a lot of well aimed shots in a short amount of time.

RR, I am very curious to hear about each of those 14 black bear kills. Distance, rifle or pistol, ammo used and bear behavior. The blackies in my area don't want anything to do with people which is a good thing. Even the lions keep a wide berth which is good since they're not on the hunting menu anyway.

I mentioned bears being shot at running and poor hits, to just show that bears are NOT easy or easier to kill as to deer!
nothing else, they do Not die easy, or any easier than a deer hit in like places!
bear can be very tough animals, take several hits and keep on going! as can deer when not hit in vitals!
bears when they get larger and have more meat fat and such on them to get thru to hit vitals

as for caliber, the 10 mm is a very capable caliber on bears even grizzly/brown bears(which by the way are the SAME species)
However just be known, that finding GOOD 10 mm ammo even before the shortages was NOT easy to do,a s most 10 mm ammo loaded by most ammo makers is not full loads designed for bears! there are typically only a few specialty ammo company's that even make good loaned ammo in 10 mm!
I own several 10 mm's including Glocks,(owned one since they came out with it and a few others since in glocks as well as several other Makers including a few custom built one's) the Glock 10 mm it was the side arm I carried on most of my time spent in AK back country!, due to my confidence in it with good ammo!

something else to consider in 10 mm's, is a LOT of the guns in 10 mm, can have issue's firing full loads in 10 mm, as they are typically set up from the factory for the lighter rounds,(so have lighter recoil springs in them)
there is a noticeable difference in recoil in using full load 10 mm and nostrum factory ammo you will find!

also, after yrs of having a gun shop and sold millions of rounds of ammo, and spoke to thousands of hunters over the yrs, and MANY carried a hand gun , and many DID use personal defense ammo in there carry guns, many don't know i the ammo they carried, wasn't good for bears and such!
you'd be surprised how many gun owners DON"T know that much about ammo and bullets! and I don;t mean that as a bash to any of them, just a fact I l;earned after spending so much time about hunters. shooters and guns!
yes many have huge amounts of knowledge(like many members here do) but many don't!

This says nothing except you can cripple anything with a bad hit!


Yes they assuredly do, you put a bullet the same place in the vitals of both a deer and a bear, the deer will 100% move farther after the shot than a bear, this is absolute fact!
Have saw 7 stock killing bears die within 10' of POI from a lung shot with a 22 mag, deer will run 60 to 100 yards with the same shot. I have never saw a bear shot in the vitals run more than 20 or so feet.

I believe we both have different options on this subject, but since you state its an absolute FACT< where are you getting this DATA to back up this claim, on it being factual?
as YOUR experiences and mine have been different and I believe we both seen a bunch of bears getting killed,
so where are the FACTS and DATA backing your views as to mine to prove me WRING!/ or are you just claiming your experiences a s WHOLE in how it works and thus a FACT to you??

My own experiences and the expieriences of 3 generations of bear hunters, I need no more than that, but we do not conclude how hard bears are to kill from poor shooting!

so your basing your views on your experiences just as I have, yet you claim I am wrong and you are right?
that isn;'t a FACT!

and I fully agree any animal hit poorly doesn't show anything other than a BAD hit
BUT if were going to claim bears are easier to kill than deer, then ,. YES< a poor hit on a bear should result in easier kill than a deer NO?/
I have tons of bear experience, in more than just hunting , I have worked with bear biologists,
I have done killing of bears in many ways too, and not just from a hunters or hunting views!
I have been part of many killings of bears from crop damage,. hunting, putting down nuisances bears, injured bears and so on! and NOT just by shooting them, either, have been part of using other means to put them down!
I will again state (IMO) I do NOT find bears any easier to kill than a deer! they have just as much will power and desire to survive as a deer does and a vital organ system that works the same way!

YES a deer MAYBE can cover more ground after taking a POOR hit, but by nature a deer is capable of covering more ground faster, due to how they can run and leap/jump
they are also a animal that is more often considered food/prey, and as such, have a habit of putting more ground between them and a perceived danger! , than a bear maybe will, , so an injured bear might NOT run as far simply , as it doesn;t feel the need to, being more or less at the top of the food chain! and not perused like a deer is!
that doesn;'t mean they die any easier!
and since this topic was some what a directed at having enough pistol for defending off a bear, and NOT hunting them,.
there is again a BIG difference in what an attacking animal has going on, than a calm one unaware of a hunter hunting it!.
I f you wish to say bears are NOT hard to kill as a FACT
go talk to some of the folks that were attached by one and see what there opinion is?
I gather it won;'t be they were easy to kill!, or none of the folks I TALKED to personally would say so!, as I have actually talked to folks that were attacked!

You are entitled to be wrong so have at it, Why do you keep talking about poor hits, If you hit both a deer and a bear in the same place in the vitals the bear will dier first......end of story! so go ahead and spread your false info, those who know, know!

well anyways as far as a defense handgun, I would not back down from any black bear under any circumstances in the attack mode, hand to hand combat, whatever, with anything of 357 magnum or larger that you can shoot well and are disciplined enough to put the bullet where it needs to be under duress. have had them by the scruff of the neck when I shot them in tense situations. However I do not carry a defense handgun for a black bear, after hundreds of interactions with them have only had a couple moments that were the slightest bit concerning. have been beside a man once when he killed one with a spear as the bear backed down the tree. Black bears are not the vicious animals you read about in the papers.

your opinion doesn't make MINE wrong that's rather rude and ignorant of you to think so!
if were being honest here!
and Love to know how you figure out a deer vital system, is stronger than that of bears! you must have some magical powers!

and let me ask you this, if bears are SO easy to DIE after being shot
why do so many bear hunters put so much more caution into tracking them
I kn ow very few deer hunters that ever worry about a wounded deer there tracking attacking them!
NOW something I will 100% agree with you on, is, I fully agree, a BLACK bear is no vicious animals trying to attack anyone, odds are they will be long gone before you ever even knew you were near one, and odds of being attacked by one is super rare!
and there is no magic to kill a bear OR a deer, or other living things, put a bullet into there vitals and you will have a end result of a dead animal!

ya ever compare the size of a 150# deer's lungs compared to a 250# bear's? ya ever saw what happens to a 400# bear if his leg is broken? (if you haven't he can't walk, he is too wide to stay off the ground on 1 fron't leg)
Nobody uses any more caution tracking a bear than a deer, at least the hundreds of bear hunters I have been associated with. If not hit in the vitals they will keep running, if they are they do not get out of sight. have not hunted 50 years to not learn anything.

yes I have seen the lungs of bears from cubs to over 600 lbs
so??
I have also seen bears over 500 lbs walking on 3 legs and broken front shoulders as well as broken rear hips!(hit from vehicles) known of one that walked that way over 8 miles before we got to it to put it down!
SO< let me ask you based on this

Nobody uses any more caution tracking a bear than a deer, at least the hundreds of bear hunters I have been associated with. If not hit in the vitals they will keep running, if they are they do not get out of sight. have not hunted 50 years to not learn anything.

so are you saying a BEAR NOT hit in the vital is NOT worth tracking, or unrecoverable??
as I can attest to this for a FACT being wrong based on having tracked dozens of bears wounded from BAD hits that were found, shot again and collected !(I have also tracked some we never found too)
and I can say 100% for a FACT,. many times a bear can be 10 yards away and OUT OF SIGHT!



I know of tons of guides and bear hunters that will totally disagree with you on this, everyone I know that tracks a WOUNDED bear uses more caution than when tracking a deer! due to the FACT a bear has more weapons than a deer has! thats NOT rocket science either! or takes a person 50 yrs to know or learn or should it!!


and just cause one hunts for 50 yrs doesn'rt mean they know everything or are experts on anything!
I know many hunters that have been hunting longer than 50 yrs and are far from even being GOOD at hunting!(and I am NOT saying your Not a skilled experienced hunter here so DON"T take it that way, just stating a fact, yrs doing something alone doesn't mean your a pro at it!)

you win! can't make up better **** than that, have a good day!

Hehehehe. I know how ya feel RR. Bears that walk on broken front shoulders and broken rear hips. Penn must have the toughest bears in the world. Most bear hunters talk about shooting them in a shoulder to break it and anchor the bear. Apparently not in Pennsylvania. and if you break a bear's shoulder in PA, that 3 legged bear will chase you down and attach you, whatever that means. Then there's bear biologists who know how to kill bears best with rifle or pistol. They must have some interesting classes to get their degrees. I get confused reading the posts between what he's personally experienced and what he's been told by other people or read. A person can do a lot in 50 years but selling millions of rounds of ammo, selling apparently numerous guns of every caliber, not to mention owning several Glock 10mms (why stop at one) and all of the hunting and biological forays in Penn, Alaska and who knows how many other states. You're right RR, he wins. Can't make it up better than that. :s3:

see I told you you have a issue with me, ??
and you claim you don't?

the bear that I listed above that was HIT by a vehicle, was video taped, video sent to local warden, warden showed up r and dispatched it, its a documented case not a MADE up story, but doubt you care about REAL info!

you wish to personally attack me on things I post yet you know NOTHING about what I own or don't to have any say in other wise that is also rather rude and ignorant of one to ASSUME SO!
if you feel a need to TALK about what guns I own , maybe you should learn more about me and not ASSUME you know about me!
(I was a Gold stocking Glock dealer, I owned one of VERY model Glock made and several of a few of there models, if you feel the need to know this info, but doubt that means anything to you, as you will just again ASSUME you know more about me than I do!)
as for PA and its BEAR biologist, well, the MAIN bear biologist for PA and was considered one of the b est bear biologist in the world, was ALSO a game warden and a at one time bear hunter! maybe some other fact you know nothing about yet THINK you do! that you some how thing a person that is a EXPERT on bears which includes there make up, WOULDN"T know what and how to kill them, is sad and also ignorant of basic's on what being an expert on a species is about,
HOW do you think they know much of a drug to give to to put them out to tag and gain other info without KILLING them or harming them
or what about treating them for illness's(like mange with is a big problem in black bears right now)

are bears in PA< harder to kill than bears else where, I dopubt it, never claimed they were,
but it is a FACT , bears in PA< do grow and add weight at a faster rate than any where else , pa has a factual history of having the heaviest for AGE bears , go look that up since I am sure you will doubt me! on this too!
and just maybe??
maybe try taking to some folks that work in wildlife rehab centers and ask them how many animals have been able to recover from vehicle hits , with broken bones and such, before you think they cannot!

if you think ever animal that gets hit b y vehicle dies your sadly mistake, many animals live long, before passing and some DON"T pass from from there injuries, same seal on critters shot poorly, many live long and many suffer greatly, the will to survive is rather strong in most living things, and you'd be surprised what they can over come and or how long they will last till things take there ,life!

so, IMO< you and RR can go live with your heads in the sand, if you think you know it all about m,e
and if you BOTH think that just cause someone hunts for 50 yrs that makes them an expert on all things wildlife, your also full of CRAP
just being a HUNTER, doesn't make anyone an expert, it just means they have 50 yrs of UNKNOWN amounts of time spent doing a SPORT many others also do, some at much higher levels of interest in learning and some NOT so much! and before you go ranting about ME again
I NEVER stated I was a EXPERT, I gave my opinions and experiences as did RR, we just had again different results
BUT I also DID add, what I have learned from REAL experts in the bear world!
but some how that fails to mean anything to , to either of you!
you's both also talk facts, yet what have you added??
then you CLAIM I am MAKING things up?? where are YOUR facts to back that up??
guess again your just a known it all! on all things ME! or just maybe a know it all in general!

ELkman, you have complained about ME getting off topic, yet look what your posting?
so go ahead feel free to add more of your issue's with me, I'm sure you will! your ignorance towards me won;'t surprise me!

also, maybe if you two, RR and elkman, have issue's with me, maybe try sending me a PM's rather than polluting a thread with your dislike of ME! but gather you need others to see your magical powers of knowing all about me !
I also will NOT be replying to either if you again on this topic, if you feel a need to PM me
so, YOU can have the WIN back!

1) thread is not about bears darted by the game commission
2) never mentioned the sizes of bears, having hunted bears from va to nh I am aware they come in different sizes
3) have no dislike for you, just stating you ignore the facts prominate to the thread
4) don't like glocks, its a personal choice
5) thread is not about vehicular injured animals receiving medical care at rehab centers
6) why are you the only one who claims to learn from experience?
7) you are on Ignore, because all you want to do is Rant about how nobody likes you, have a great day!

I'll echo what Ridge Runner said except I like Glocks. They serve a useful purpose. I'm also not putting you on ignore as I don't put anybody on ignore. If I disagree with what somebody says, I'll post why. If I don't like what somebody continues to say, at some point I simply stop responding. I don't need an ignore button to not read what somebody says. I don't begrudge people who use the ignore button. I just choose not to and don't feel a need.

You keep stating that I don't like you or "have an issue with you." Like RR, I don't have any dislike for you. I also very pointedly have not said "you're full of crap." And I don't care whether you like me or not. We're not buddies, just 2 guys posting on a forum. You say we should just disagree with you in PMs yet don't offer us the same courtesy. You're missing the point. this is a forum where people post things for others to read. Not some private messenger service where you only share your point of view with a single other person. People read these different points of view to help them decide what they think about a given issue, not to see a bunch of posts telling another member they have mail in a PM. People don't always agree on everything. That's called an adult conversation.

FWIW, I agree with you some of the time and think you make good points and advice--some of the time. Other times, you post stuff like seeing bears walking on broken front shoulders and broken rear hips. Aside from the challenges of walking with broken shoulders and hips, when a hunter shoots a bear in the shoulder and blows it out, that shot usually sends broken shards of bone through the heart, lungs, etc. It's why they refer to it as an anchoring shot. There's often a follow up shot to finish the bear but the bear isn't running away. This topic is about shooting bears with pistols, not bears who get in traffic accidents. And hunters do develop some level of expertise or this forum would be a waste of time.

Ridge Runner mentioned the thread isn't about bears getting rehab at a clinic or darted by a game commission biologist. I agree. It's about people with pistols shooting bears and the results they get. Something biologists don't do very much. It isn't about somebody using a light or frangible load in a pistol; it's about a person shooting a bear with appropriate heavy ammo in a pistol and whether the pistol is enough to stop the bear from attacking. I've met a few biologists that hunt but most of them don't so I don't usually consult them for tips on how to shoot bears. I've met a lot (maybe not tons) of guides that guide and hunt for bears. Their job is to get their client a bear and they usually give great advice and have lots of useful experience. So I'll listen to a biologist on where to look for bears, etc. but I'll listen to guides and other hunters for what it takes to kill one.

You post about knowing tons of biologists and guides. Then act like nobody else does. It's not that hard to run into and talk with a lot of biologists and guides at a hunting show. There are also several biologists and guides who write solid articles about their experiences and observations. As well as numerous hunting accounts that often state caliber, bullet selection, # of shots fired, where the shots hit and how quickly or not the bear died. And last but not least, there's personal experience. I have honestly not shot as many bears as Ridge Runner or several other hunters on the forum but my experience has been similar results to theirs. Bears don't run far if you shoot them where it counts. So again, we disagree. although I notice you finally mentioned that a Glock 20 with good ammo is sufficient for bears. Maybe there's hope.

well anyway, black bears bluff 99.99% of the time, most folks claim they were attacked when witnessing a bluff charge, its a bit unnerving but if you stand your ground they will back off. on the rare occasion a bear commits to a full blown attack, you need a handgun you can shoot well, chest cavity shots will not keep the bear off of you, because the bluff will turn into a real charge at very close range. you must hit the CNS to disable the bruin right now, either a brain or spine shot will be required. a broken shoulder or fron't leg will slow him down giving you a few seconds more to stop him. If I were concerned, I would carry either my 10mm or a 45 commander both in a 1911 model, a blacks skull is not thick, and they have a fairly large brain so you have a 4-8" square target to hit in 3-5 seconds. not a hard feat if you are experienced with your weapon.

I read a thread in Off Season about what happened to this site. This thread is what happened to this site. People attacking another person with stupid crap and that have to be right no matter the cost. Their main goal coming to this site is to try and make someone else look stupid. MRBB is obviously very knowledgeable about bears and is trying his best to share his experiences and you so called members just have to attack him, ruin a great thread and try to prove him wrong. It didn't take long for this site to turn my stomach. Go ahead JW, ban me again and let these guys keep ruining your site.
There is hardly nobody left here! Huntingnet and the mods still let the same few guys run their mouths and at the same time run off the few members they have. Who wants to stick around and read the kind of crap that this thread turned into.

I see you came back and posted in a few topics. You keep complaining about mods and dare one of them to ban you. Yet the same mod you dare is busy trying to mentor some new hunters in the forums and help them get started in hunting. What are you doing again? Oh yeah. Complaining about old stuff. You might reread all of this topic as it got hijacked a bit by mrbb and then he started posting over the top stuff while slamming a couple other members. Nobody told him to leave or even suggested it. He got upset when called on some of his sillier stuff and then took his marbles and went home. It's funny how a lot of people in these forums see the faults of some yet ignore the faults of others. If you had called everybody out, I would get it it even though I would disagree. But you didn't do that. Instead you called out others and left your buddy alone. And then threw shade on a mod for old stuff that nobody wants to waste time looking up. Somehow I don't think you were entirely innocent back then. Just sayin.