1/2 inch all day,if i do my part !
 

I am talking FACTORY rifles,here.
I see this statement often !
After 55 years of shooting i just don't believe this in a factory rifle. to me ,a factory rifle is like a woman,their mood changes from day to day?
I do not make statements such as this ever " Shoots 1/4 or 1/2 inch all day long !" I ain't seen it happen yet!
Have you ever wished you could call a guy out to shoot,on more than 1 or 2 shooting sessions or more, just to see this happen ? I have only seen one rifle come close to making a dummy out of me and it was a SAKO 6mm ppc.
Do you believe in this ?

Factory rifles, no... 1" "all day" is possible I think.

Custom rifles, yes. Most of mine, "if I do my part" will easily shoot 1/2" "all day"...they are capable of more then I am. My best was 1/4" at 105 yards, I had a good day. Can I do it all the time? NOPE!

well I will disagree and agree
after selling 17000 plus guns, and shooting countless amounts of riffles at the range
I have seen a few SUPER factory rifles that are like Unicorns, LOL
that just shot unreal small groups, with what ever you stuck in them, freaks of nature I call them

SO, YES there ARE a some out there
BUT overall
I don't think MOST folks could shoot 1/2 inch groups on the best made rifles in the world all day long.

plus I don't think many folks even know HOW to measure groups RIGHT< or have the tool to do so!

being a bench shooter for many many many yrs, you see a LOT of bullcrap and HOW folks view there groups and rifles

even the media today is a bunch of bullcrap throwers, ever watch a TV hunting.gun show and see there groups and then hear what they say they are, or have done

just like when they shoot a small buck and call it MATURE, when you can plainly see its a YOUNG SMALL BUCK!
or when they shoot a deer in DAY light and don't find it till WAY after dark and they say it ONLY Ran 100 yrs, but took 5 hrs to get there LOL
lots of bull crap being passed around folks!!
calling it all out would run you ragged LOL

I have a Remington Model Seven 7mm-08 that will do 1/2 groups all day if "I do my part" also,...:s4:

I had a Rem. 700BDL in .270 Win that would also consistently shoot 1/2" groups. My load was 54 gr of IMR4350 under a Nosler 130 Ballistic Tip. But like a dumb a$$ I went and sold it to reduce my inventory. Sure wish I had that rifle back! It was a 1970's vintage that came with a hand checkered stock from the factory.
But that wasn't my most accurate rifle. I had a Rem 700BDL with a bull barrel in 7mm-08 that I used for high power silhouette that I shot a 3/8" group at 200 yards (3 times). And I currently have a Savage 7mm-08 in the 11 youth version that has shot 1/4" groups @ 100 on occasion and well under 1" most of the time.
So with the right loads, some factory rifles are capable of shooting right alongside expensive custom jobs. Not all, but some.

Your AVERAGE factory rifle of today, I.E. big box brands, are usually capable of 1" groups for the most part. And you will occasionally get one with better than average craftsmanship that will get to 1/2" C-C grouping. Your higher end rifles tend to be put together with much more attention to tolerances therein making for much better performance. I hear/see sometimes people claiming the rifles of today's manufacturing are better than those of the older times. I have to STRONGLY disagree when it comes to rifles made from around the late 1930's to the mid to late 1960's. Back then your rifle makers paid so much more attention to detail and cared much more for the quality of their work to be seen and appreciated by the customers. I have several old rifles from Winchester and Browning that will all EASILY hold to a 1/2"-3/4" group any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

As Jeep pointed out, I also have many rifles with custom barrels, blue printed actions and all that other jazz that will easily hold 1/2" and under.

More often than not, it's not the rifle but what it's being fed. I've had, and still have a few, rifles that wouldn't shoot factory ammo of ANY brand worth diddly but some work at the loading bench brought out a rifle that is unmatched! Had a few that wouldn't even make for good fence posts they shot so bad until a little love at the loading bench cured them.

Then you have scope bases, rings, and the scopes themselves to consider. Cheap scopes, poorly fitted bases and rings are the bane to many shooters and more often than not it's the rifle that gets the blame. Ran in to a fella at a range in PA once that was about to wrap a really nice old model 70 30-06 around the post. I saw him shooting and could pretty much tell it wasn't bad form or flinching causing a shotgun pattern on his 50 yard target. He jumped up and said "first person to hand me a $100 dollar bill can have this fine looking shotgun!" I whipped out a bill and said SOLD but you can keep that Simmons scope. I took the scope off for him and he said "that's nice of you since I really like that scope" I said "you won't when you put it on another rifle and get the same crappy groups" :D I mounted the scope from my own 30-06 (Nikon Monarch) that I had brought to the range, barrel sighted it (pulled bolt and centered the target down the bore then dialed in the CH's) then proceeded to shoot a one hole 3 shot group at 50 :D Best $100 bucks I'd spent in a long time! Needless to say the fella was a might pissy but I think he learned a lesson that day :D

What are you considering factory? untouched action, trigger, and barrel or completely untouched out of the box rifle. With handloads my savage .270 shoots consistently .500 to .750" with the occasional 5 round group outside of that range, but I have replaced the stock, installed pillars and bedded the action. And that is with handloads. With factory ammo the best I can get on a consistent bases is around 1.250" with a deviation of probably .500" either way.


Many many times I have had buddies claim they had a "tack driver" only to go to the range find 1.500" groups or worse.

Brand/Model?

Cartridge?

I have a Browning BAR .270 win. I think may be belgium made that shoots 1/2" with federal cheap 130gr soft points.

I think there are quite a few factory rifles these days shooting well.
Also I think there are better and more factory cartridge options.

Many rifles guarantee 3 or 5 shots under 1MOA...

Btw you can hunt and kill a lot of game with a rifle that shoots 1.5MOA IMO...

Who was it that was saying 400yds is the new 300yds... but 300 yds is still long range! (to most)...

I bet 90-99% of guys will never kill a game animal past 400...

Yep I have killed yotes past 400 and once a pig but never attempted a deer or turkey. but I love to ring steel out to 800.

1/2" groups
 

Just because you can't shoot 1/2" doesn't mean everyone can't!

PS: I don't appreciate the ads being added to my post!!!

What ads??

He probably doesn't have an ad blocker set up properly on his computer. I never see an ad on this site the way mine is set up.

LOL - OK guys, Ya'll look at my #10 post.

I, too, no longer see the 3 ads that were added at the bottom of that post the moment I wrote it.
However, I now see a large space at the bottom where the 3 ads were added to that post.

What do you see?

Damnit, Now there's one at the bottom of my above post.

Help - What do I need to do with my pop-up blocker?

Everyone on the internet has a 1/2" tack driver. In reality, the average guy can't consistently shoot that well. Some of my factory rifles (Savage 11 243, Browning Abolt 280, Savage 11 youth 7'08) can get there with good hand loads, most are 1 MOA shooters. I'm the weak link. Some days I shoot pretty damn good, others not so much.

Lets get back to my post on 1/2 inch factory guns ?
So far only 2 guys have given a true world answer,Tufrthnails & Jeepkid ! Others have stated that their rifles will do it all day everyday,then go on to say how they worked on their gun and their hand loaded ammo !
I am saying the average fellow,whom lucks onto a 3 shot group of 1/2 or less? Then his gun will do it all day long but,on which day is that ?
As to myself,Mr. Sendero, i am well beyond shooting 1/2 or 1/4 inch groups. I had shot Bench rest,factory class for years, I won many matches and took more second places than i liked! This is where i come up with the deal of factory guns not shooting 1/2 inch or less all day long !I have seen quite a few guys leave the range with broken hearts from a matches !
The variables involved are many? Such as ,how many rounds before it opens up,the temp out side,the wind,the ammo,the barrel fouling and so on.
3 shot groups are fine for the hunting type of men but i always,out of habit,believe in the 5 shot,or more groups !
It has been said that new guns are capable of 1 inch group,out of the box? Could be! But how many hunting type of people know how to care for that new gun to continue the 1 inch or less ability ? It isn't many ! Beside,IMHO,there is not much factory ammo,that these folks will buy,that will shoot 1 inch or less,all day long ?
ALL DAY LONG IF I DO MY PART ? Man,i hate that statement !
Why have the Snipers and other sharp shooters.began shooting center mass instead of head shoots?
Consistency is a fact of shooting! The only thing i know that is consistent is the sun coming up.

First off I never said mine would do it all day long. In my 55+ years of shooting I've had 3 factory rifles that would shoot 1/2" or better if I did my part. Hate that statement or not it's true. Some days you're just into it more than others. One of which I still own and I am going to give to my grandson this year. If you don't believe me - well that's your prerogative. But don't call me a liar.
And while we're on this subject I just remembered that I had a butt ugly H&R Handi Rifle in .223 with a bull barrel that looked like it was finish machined with a bastard file! I had it to a range in FL back around 2000 and after a session on the line, the range officer came walking past and asked how it was shooting. I told him to take a look. After peering through my spotting scope at the ragged hole about 3/4"-1" he asked how many rounds were in there. He was shocked when I told him at least 15 and showed him the empty cases.

What do you mean "snipers started shooting CM rather than HS?" Always been taught to go for CM in just about every situation! The only time HS is recommended is for armed/hostage situations where the target is to be "switched off" and that is 9 times out of 10 in a 40 yards or less target acquisition. And before you go spouting off what you read in some soldier of fortune magazine,my time in SSBC at Lejeune is why I hate Lejeune! So how's about you stick to what you might or might not know with bench guns and leave the SS training to those of use that have been through it!

Also for the record, there are many on here that shoot a hell of a lot more than "your average hunter". I usually send more rounds downrange in a week than a lot of "hunters" do in their lifetime. As does most of the guys who have posted right here on this thread. A lot of you "bench guys" crack me up because a lot of you seem to think you know all there is to know about shooting and the "other shooters" don't know their butts from a hole in the ground. Most of you wouldn't know what to do if you didn't have a 30 pound bulled barrel and a 20 pound stock! Just why is it you seem to think we don't know about barrel heat causing "stringing" or barrel fouling causing groups to open up? Part of when I test a new rifle out is seeing just when the barrel heats up to a point to cause stringing!

In ending, I'll say what's already been said, just because YOU can't do it in no way means others can't!

Bravo Superhunt54...I like that post. Straight, true and to the point.

I never said I can shoot 1/2 groups all day either??
I think most folks fib a little more than they like to admit!

I'm one of those who can shoot 1/2" all day long, If I shoot all day I'll have at least 2 bullets within 1/2 inch of each other
RR

Since snipers have been mentioned along with experience in shooting I am on the verge of contacting several friends to get any answers you may seek. Most information I have gathered over the years points towards the information provided by super above. Might be because most where from the same schooling here on Lejeune as he was.

Take RR up there for example. He is being a bit on the modest side as we all know he is one of the better shots on this forum. While most of his rifles are in the "custom" class, I would imagine he probably has more than a couple rifles that are pretty much factory that will more than easily hold less than an inch groups. He is more like me in that respect as he wouldn't be satisfied with anything less to be in his safe! Now granted, todays rifles are always in need of SOMETHING done to make them better. Bedding job, trigger job, action trued, SOMETHING that in the past would have been done at the factory before the customer ever laid hands on the rifle! As I said previously, manufacturers today, even though they have equipment that is light years ahead of what they had in the 30's-60's, just don't come close to QUALITY in their crafts. It's an age of push button manufacturing and while the machines are CAPABLE of good quality cutting and such, the operators just don't give a damn about the end product! A good rifle, to me anyway, is just as much a work of art as it is a tool. And today's artist suck!

I can't recall the number of rifles I bought that didn't meet up to my standards. Too many IMO. I'm not counting my lever / saddle guns. They were never intended to be tack drivers but more or less meat guns. I will also throw my ARs into this category too because I'm not yet into working with them for utmost accuracy.
Of the handful that did meet my 1.5 MOA or better accuracy I only have 4; A Savage 11 in .223, another in 7-08, a Browning A bolt in 7-08 and a Tikka in 30-06. The only one that need work was the Browning. That needed a bedding job and a good deal of load development to become an MOA rifle.
Either of these rifles will shoot right around MOA all day, every day. The little Savage 7-08 will occasionally put 5 rounds into a ragged hole if conditions and I are in sync. I've done it 3 times with it in the past year or so.

I have to agree... I have a browning abolt with boss that shoots awesome!!! But 1/2" all day long... no it won't... I've shot 5 shot group that you could cover with a nickel with Winchester power point ammo... Last time I shot it I was lucky to shoot a sub MOA ... But in my defense when I shoot the 5 shot group I was shooting off a solid quality shooting bench... The other range session were off my patio table in back yard lol

In my safe are I think 43 rifles, another 17 are tucked away at my moms house, of those 2 of those, there is 1 full house turn key custom, and 1 built from an unfired rifle purchased for a donor action. of those that remain 3 will shoot sub 1/2 moa groups as they came outta the box, 2 will do it with factory ammo the third needs handloads to get it done. only 1 is a bolt action, and its a rimfire, a savage 17 hmr, the other 2 are an AR15 and a ruger #1
I have never got a factory Remington 700 to do it, but with a handful of 100 dollar bills and a good smith they can do much better than 1/2 moa. my old LH rem. 788 6mm took a new stock, pillared and glassed to handily make 1/2" others required a new barrel, some have been totally rebuilt. I have saw a few other factory rifles that would do it, but they are not by any means common.
RR

Geez RR I though I was bad with somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 rifles!
And I thought we were only talking CFs here. I have a Savage 17HMR too that is fun to shoot. Seems like that thing doesn't miss. I took it squirrel hunting and it was just too easy. I started taking only head shots. And even then, off a solid log rest, 75 yards was not a problem. I've also taken 2 turkey with it. I love that little rifle.

maybe its just my luck, wanted to emphasize that my only bolt action that shot 1/2 moa out of the box was a rimfire, I have an ancient rem. 600 that comes close but won't do it all day long, nor every day for that matter, maybe its my poor marksmanship. however my heavy custom hunting rigs can blow your mind, they will do 1/2 moa quite easily to 500 yards and beyond, some of them way beyond.
RR

I've had one Rem in my life that shot 1moa right out of the gate brand spanking new. If memory serves it was right at .850 on a 5 shot run. Had a few Win's that were superior rifles right out of the box from the the very early 60's. Even have 1 Marlin lever gun 30-30 that will hold just a tick under 1moa as long as I take my time after the first 2 shots. She strings a good bit heating up fairly quick. But I also know that rifle well enough to compensate pretty darn well for it's vertical string and adjusting my aim.

As far as AR's go, there are SOOOOOOOO many companies out there now slapping parts together it is dang near funny. But there are a few you can go to to have one built that will fix you up with a dang NICE shooting rig. My 6.8SPC will easily hold between .550-.750 as long as I aint trying to speed demon the trigger. Now my .458 SOCOM while it isn't a serious tack driving machine, it will hold between 1.0-1.5 which all in all is pretty dang sporty for what it is. Then we come to my little gem 7mm-08 AR10 that will consistently print one small ragged hole at 100 yards again as long as I don't try breaking any speed records on trigger time. Now my new .338fed AR that NoMercy helped me acquire I haven't had the chance really to put through any serious loading and testing so far but what little I have fired it, it seems to be a pretty dang good rifle. Another one ragged holer.

Now, like RR, I haven't bought more than 2 or 3 boxes of factory ammo in 45+ years for rifles. I learned WAY early on that factory ammo has the consistency of a 3 year old little boy. Everywhere you DON'T want it to be is exactly where it will be! So many factory rifles, while they might not shoot worth a tinkers dam with factory ammo, might just jump up and surprise you with some tender loving at the reloading bench! You also need to learn the "personality" of your rifles.

Same here with factory ammo. The only stuff I buy is rimfire. I did get a deal on 6 boxes of 7-08 ammo at a recent auction.(something like $5 a box) but only got that for the brass.

My Styer SSG will shoot tight groups with the right ammo (it prefers 167 grn, PSPBT at around 2750 fps.) and letting the barrel cool between shots. The only thing I've done to it was a double set trigger, I didn't like the single set trigger it had. Still shoots well for a forty year old rifle.

The rifle shoots better than I do, most rifles shot better than the shooter. My groups may move around the ten ring a little, atmospherics, air temp. ect. But clover leafs are common.

I'm a hunter and the first shot is usually the only one that counts anyway.

This brings up a point I was trying to drive home with a buddy. we had went to the range and shot a bunch 60+ rounds fairly quickly with his hunting rifle (30-06). He was adjusting his zero the whole time trying to center punch the bull.

I told him he needed to let it sit and completely cool then send a round to verify zero. He said why it's zeroed. I told him his cold barrel would shoot quite a bit different then it did after all the shooting he had done his POI was different. He did listen to me and it was off by 2" at 100yrds.

It's likely different rifle to rife, but my Styer will string the shots vertically when I shoot it hot, MOA isn't unusual with 4 or 5 quick shots. Likely a combination of the barrel moving a little and powder burn rate. I can compensate with hold off, it does it consistently and I know my rifle.

Point is knowing your rifle is important, you can compensate if you know in advance what is likely to happen.

Think the last three posts touched on one of the most important aspects of shooting. Rifles are pretty stable in what they will do and why/how they do it when all variables are kept steady. The variable most unreliable is the shooter and many times are too quick to change other variables. I have either witnessed shooters swapping out to different ammo after just one box or making adjustments to zero as they shoot more and more. For whatever reason there is more need today for shooters to be taught or shown why it is important to sit down one range session at a time and learn their rifle and be as thorough as possible when testing to understand what they are actually doing.

Personal rule for myself is to take the one gun I am wanting to practice and learn about to the range with one type of ammo. I will sit and shoot that one setup for a while learning and understanding what is happening before I make any changes. If no changes are needed and things seem to be pretty steady and consistent then I may take out another couple boxes of another ammo brand to test and see how they perform. Shooters need to have a benchmark to compare sits against and need to learn to adjust the least amount of variables as possible. Consistency will be key

Agreed. I may bring a few rifles so I can let each cool during load testing between groups. I know reloading my own ammo has taught me a whole lot about how a specific rifle acts to the point I somewhat know what to expect with component changes. I can't tell you how many guys have come up to me at the range to ask what my rifle is and how much work have I done to it. And truly it really isn't the rifle it has pretty much been accurate it has may more to the amount of time I have spent getting to know it. Their are a few rifles like my Marlin lever action 30-30 that I just can't figure out how to get it to shoot better then 2MOA and not from lack of trying. Many of my friends shoot their rifles the week before they go hunting and wonder why they can't hit crap. One of the problems that I ran into was going from FL to KY to hunt. I lost around 120 fps on cold bore just going from temps in the 70's to the 20's and 30's. I spent a few weeks up there on the farm last year and took the time to develop a load up there and now I just keep some ammo up there at my cousin's place and build 50 rounds from that data when I get some down time on his gear.

Tufr, About your Marlin, first off let me ask you the year make of it. Marlin went through a pretty tough time about 2 years before the Rem takeover and then about 5 years after the takeover. It was a pretty big gamble on whether or not you would get a good shooting rifle. If your model falls within those years, I would suggest you take it to a good smith that has good experience with lever guns and have him check out the action as well as head spacing and barrel square. Also check out your crown with a Mic to make sure it is concentric. Just a tiny bit off and that will throw your groups to the wind. Another thing you can try since you reload, is try the leverevolution powder and the FTX bullets. I haven't tried the powder yet but I use both the 160gr .30 cal FTX for a couple of my .30-30's and the 265gr for one of my .444 Marlins. The other one doesn't like those FTX's a bit but loves the Interlock. (personality of a rifle, go figure) I do intend to try that LE powder as it is claimed to be about 150-200 fps faster.

I got it used in 06. My brother has it right now at his house (he loves to shoot the thing). I have thought about taking it to a smith, but honestly I am thinking now about making it a bada$$ christmas present for him. He doesn't have any hunting rifles and he has either been using it or his father in laws .270. He makes a lot of sacrifices for his family so I think that is prob going to be the route I go. I may tell him to take it to a smith that I have used in the past to see what he can do. I have heard there were some not so good years so i really just figured it was my luck.

BTW I got my eye on a Henry 45-70 gov! I got to have a levergun in the safe it is unAmerican not too!!!!

Yessireebobby! But before you "gift" it to him, try that load combo I gave you. It might just tighten that puppy up. Then you will be giving him a really good shooter! And give that crown a really good inspection too. Wear from someone cleaning it from the muzzle end can leave a very small wear spot which will effect your grouping. I've had a lot of lever guns come in with just that exact problem. I mean it's not THAT dang hard to drop the lever and extract the bolt on a Marlin! Takes me approximately 1 minute and I'm oldern dirt! But most people just don't think about it with lever guns. They think it takes a smith to break one down when a monkey with a flat head screwdriver can do it!

OK In will throw into the mix a range story
I did a lot of range work over the yrs and way too much seat time at a lot as well

was a bunch of yrs back and at a public range,
I was sighting in some rifles for some customers.

I had my bench , one of 6 , had my complete bench set up with me, good rest spotting scope and basic's to make life easier for doing this!
I was far right side of things, so a lot of room to my left!
when in pulled up a brand new Suburban all loaded up with lift kit and chrome this and that
two guys get out smelling like a cologne factory, gold chains and designer clothing
and right off I see issue's LOL

they got out some very HIGH end gun case's a HUGE spotting scope, and some rolled up rags for a rest? HUMM<
they have them high end Custom wood weatherby rifles, and can hear the yapping to each other loud enough so I HAVE to hear them how they paid SO Much money for them and this and that
not knowing I could care less I guess?


well, I check to make sure there OK I shoot, and they say can I hold on while they run a few targets down range as they plan to sight in a few rifles today

I was OK< I;m in no rush

they take the two benches far left of me, a good say 60+ ft left of me and set up targets accordingly

we both set up to fire,
I shoot, a 3 shot group, and am happy with first riffle I have to do, was a almost a dead on , so got lucky with that one,
do a 5 shot group and then call it good enough for this customer's rifle!
put rifle away, and these morons haven't fired a shot yet??
still bragging to each other about how costly each item they have is??
mean time I am stuck waiting , as there wanting to shoot, just ??

so, I dig out gun number 2 and pt first away

and watch them in action, figuring this should be good
each has 3 rifles!
they proceed to shoot, one rifle, , ONE Shot, and then use next gun and shoot one shot and then third and one shot

I am watching and thinking WTH are they doing??

OK< time out, we go and check targets, I set up a new one for next gun and remove old one and find I have an extra hole in the target than I shot??
NOW I have my attention on them a little better

and again they are talking about HOW Great the one guy shot and how he shot 3 times and only has 2 holes, one must have been in the same hole
, NOPE< you shot my target once??
and I swear it wasn't on purpose

we shoot again, I take 3 shots for a group, and adjust and am good again, with 8 shots fired

I put gun away but don't watch them shot all of there 6 shots with 6 different rifles

again, we check targets and I have this time 2 extra holes and one guy is NOW bragging how he got all 3 of his shots in the same hole
and how his high end rifles are so awesome??

mean time other guy is complaining how his 3 are all over the target??


so this round I sit out shooting, to just watch these guys??
again, they have 3 rifles each and are taking one shot from each rifle and then swapping to different rifle

so when there done, I ask them, why they are shooting like that
first guy looks at me like a moron, and says, WHEN you sight in rifles you should always take a 3 shot group to do so??
HAHA
I should also had befre every shot they are making scope adjustments based on there last 3 shot group
ONLY they are NOT keeping track of where each different rifle shot<
rather using group as a way to adjust all three rifles scopes

I try to explain to them that I am a gun shop owner and shooting instructor and that, they are NOT shooting a 3 shot group doing what there doing, they need to shoot each rifle , ONE rifle at a time for 3 shots and THEN adjust if needed, not , 1 shots from 3 different rifles at same time??

as that is NOT a 3 shot group

well, this sends them into a rant about how they know better than me and that they have been doing this for 20+ yrs and they have killed game all over the world doing this and blah blah
I then, ask them if they realized they had also been shooting at MY target, as I kept getting extra holes in my target, thus why I sat this round out??

this pisses them off even more, saying I am a liar and I need my head examined as they know how to shoot better than I do?

and at this point I remember WHY I never really shoot at public ranges

but WOW< can you imagine shooting a target 50 + ft off and NOT knowing your that far off??

or that using 3 different rifles to shoot a 3 shot group ??

MAN< some of the folks out there with more money than brains, its almost scary

I mean I could see shooting another target as a joke or to screw with them, but these two, honestly I think had NO idea they were, heck the one guy missed his target 2 of his 3 shots and thought they all went in one hole??
and was still making scope adjustments between every shot on every rifle he fired??

SO< I bet if you asked these two, they would both say they have rifles that can shoot 1/2 inch or BETTER groups ALL day!!

OH well, sadly this is a true story, hope you enjoyed
and I also hope you all never hunt any where NEAR these guys! HAHA!
I asked where they hunt in PA< and they told me, Pike County!
I don't hunt there and happy to know that I won't see them in my area!