Well the problem is...
 

there are over 15 calibers for deer, and most of them are over 50 years old.
30-06 is over 100 years old. Somebody had to invent something new, except for us old guys.

Sorry to rehash such an old thread, but I was reading back over this. 3 years after I made the original post...my taste has gravitated to the 30-06. The shorter overall length of the .308 I've decided is not worth the trade off in versatility for powder capacity and bullet weight. I now own both a Browning X-bolt chambered in .308 and a Browning BAR chambered in 30-06. The BAR is now my weapon of choice.

NATO rounds

.223/5.56

.308/7.62

Good to have in boltguns and AR platform, I would say !

do not own a 30 cal. rifle, don't have a desire to, have had them before, hunted with them, wasn't impressed.
the 7mm/08 will do anything the 308 can do, with less recoil, the 7 mag will do anything the 30/06 can do and then some, for just deer hunting the 6mm's or a25 is all you could possibly need.
RR

As such a dedicated lover of the '06, 300wm, and 300wsm that I am, it's hard to admit that sometimes. I still haven't fall in love with the 7mm RM over the 300WM or 30-06, but the 284win is creeping ever closer to knocking the 30-06 out of my favor. 7-08 soundly trumps the 308win in my book (small case needs a small bore).

160's and up are over .600 BC in 7mm, for a 30cal to match those aerodynamics, it takes over 200grn. Right off the bat, that's 25% more recoil to match the same trajectory, and the difference in killing power for a 2900fps 200grn pill vs. a 2900fps 160grn pill at 1,000yrds really isn't that much.

It took me a long time own up to never needing more than a 243win to kill whitetails of any size... But I'm not ready to give up on my 30cal's just yet! (Except in the AR-10 platform, can't really think of any use for a 308win AR-10).

Maybe because you want one? Or 10? :s4:

I went moose and bear hunting with a buddy once. He shot a bear with his 7mm RM and we both shot moose--him with his 7mm and me with my 338WM. After looking at the terminal ballistics and performance on putting the moose down, he was seriously thinking about a 338WM. I don't disagree with anything you or RR have said but I don't see myself replacing my 338WM for elk, moose or large bears. I'll always use my 270 on deer although I'm about ready to play with the wife's .243 for deer/long range coyotes just to see how well it works. :D

Not a fan of ANY of the magnums out there. Even own a 300WM barrel for the PH and a couple bolters but I hate shooting them. Killed just about everything (big game wise) on the North American Continent including several Browns without using one. Never had a single one complain that I didn't use some magnum cartridge to kill it. Killed many with the little old 30/30. As far as the .308 goes, they bore me. Simple as that. As Mercy put it, the 7mm/08 is a much better cartridge in my book than the .308 and I have found with my new LR .338fed a better use for the .308 case :D That bigger bore lets me get away with a shorter barrel and STILL using a little slower powder getting great velocities with bullets that have a better sectional density. Hard to beat that combination for an AR patterned rifle!

You will find that .243 works just dandy on whitetail and with the right loads it's a spectacular yote dropper Cal :D

I've been wondering of late, what will the gun and hunting magazines talk about in 20yrs? Will there still be articles about the "tried and true 30-06" or "still 308 WINning, after all these years"?

If we look at trends in recent decades, development has tended to focus on super magnums (used to be shorts, now full lengthers) in middle-ground small bore calibers (6's and 7's) and standard or short length mid-bore cartridges (Ruger RCM's and safari mags, 338's fed & edge, etc), and of course, the proliferation of "MSR cartridges".

But does any given cartridge or class of cartridges have the the market saturation that the 308win or 30-06 (and their families) had through the 20th century? Will the magazine articles 20yrs or 40yrs from now talk about the 7mm WSM or the 26 Nosler as the cartridges of yester-year, the way we talk about the 30-06 or 308win now? Will the 30-06 and 308win only remain with the last few hold-outs stuck in a time loop, regarded in the same light as today's levergun hunters sporting 30-30's or 45-70's? Does any cartridge on the market today enjoy enough popularity that it will be the "cartridge that keeps on giving" and carries through the next generations?

Then again, maybe there won't even be magazines to be read anymore in 40yrs. He11, Playboy already gave up to the internet...

I am quite happy with the 308 in fact its my go too every year during deer season. I would have very little problem hunting something bigger with it as well.

The only thing the 30.06 has on the 308 is bullet weight selection. You can shoot 220gr bullets out of a 30.06 but you won't find much more than 150,165 and 180s for the 308.

the 308 is the best of all worlds IMO. about 3lbs less recoil, short action, slightly lighter rifle and the ammo is the same price as 30.06.

This coming from someone who owns a few 30.06 and 7mm-08 rifle as well. For me its hard to come up with something that much better for the lower 48 than the 308.

the 7mm-08 i have is more stout recoil than my 308 as well. It really has alot to do with the rifle. I know some here say that the 7mm-08 is superior, but its not. Ballistically very close, but ammo is $10 more a box and harder to find. Big disadvantage there.

Honestly Mercy, I think if firearms are still around in 40 years and the Libs haven't succeeded in taking them, the old 06 will still have fans galore. If I'm going on a hunt for something where I will have to have absolute faith in, my old hand always seems to lean towards my old 06 I built years ago. Her and that round has never failed me. The .308, not near as much faith in even though it is a good round. Next year will be the 110th birthday for the old venerable .30/06. It's little brother the .308 will be 60 next year. Both cartridges have a great following but the .308, in my opinion anyway, just never really lived up to the hype.

Like ole' sayings that are spoken over and over again because there is truth in them.

Let's be honest, classic cartridges work even better than they once did.

It is very simple; how many guns are manufactured, sold and still being used in that caliber ?


New is just that, NEW ............................ only time will tell if they can stand the "test of time" !!!

If I'm hunting whitetail or smaller, I personally consider the 7mm08 to be the best all round whitetail cartridge ever designed! If I want 1 rifle for everything including elk the 30-06 is the obvious choice for ME personally. Since I'm not into the extreme long range or tactical game, if a 30-06 won't do the job I figure I have no business shooting at it in the 1st place! If I'm hunting strictly nothing bigger than whitetail, the 7mm08 is plenty and less recoil than the 30-06.

The 308 Win. has been my favorite "deer rifle" cartridge since early 1970's. I'd ssy it is what I carry to the deer woods 80% of the time. My first was a Win. Model 88, which was stolen in the fall of 1978. I have used a Styer Pro Hunter, Mountain in 308 Win. now for decades. It is what I carry to the deer woods 75% of the time. I use a 165 gr. Game King or 165 gr. Nosler Partition in the hand loads I make up. I have been able to find excellent grouping loads for each. Interestingly enough, of the 16 guys I hunt with in a "Hunting Club", only 2 of us use the 308 Win. ... me and my son-in-law.

.308 Win. is a great round and one I have used to years for deer. I did have a problem with it this year though. Gave it to my buddy to use for his hunt. He killed his 7 pt. nicely, but I was using Sierra Pro Hunter 150 gr. bullets. He didn't get a true-n-thru shot. The bullet hit a rib going in and shattered. It took out both lungs, but pieces went down into the ponch and made a mess. I will be looking for a new bullet for future hunts.

As an aside, I didn't over load this round. I used 47.5 grs of IMR4895 if I remember right. That is a mid range load in the Sierra reload book.

A .308 case with a small bullet installed!! It may be a little faster, but that would be splitting hairs when killing a deer.

It's not just a "smaller bullet" that makes it a better round raf. Significantly less recoil offers 2 things. Better option for younger hunters or those that are highly recoil sensitive, and less muzzle rise for faster target re-acquisition. It's flatter shooting and you can get better performance out of a shorter barreled rifle. Fantastic selection of bullets from the 7mm lineup makes for a VERY good cartridge for everything up to and including Elk. I just had a .338fed built to replace my longer range shot rifle in 7mm08 for the simple reason I wanted a bit more authority on impact at 400 yards on Hogs. The 7mm08 performed well but I wanted something with some more "thump" to put those long range hogs on the ground quicker on "vitals" shots. 338fed is yet another cartridge based on a .308 parent case. The case is wonderful but the .308 is mediocre when there can be SOOOOO much more done with that case.

The caliber wars will never end and that's one of the things that keep deer hunting interesting. Deer aren't that difficult to kill so no wonder all the different caliber flavors.
Anyone for a 300 Savage w/modern bullet and powder?

I re-read (for the 900th time) this statement today and for some reason it got me thinking about it... I really don't have an answer for this one, and I'm tempted to do some calling around to see if I can find out...

Are there REALLY more 30-06 or .308win rifles being produced today than other cartridges?

Even if you exclude the dominance of MSR's in the market right now, I don't think I expect that 308win has a dominating sales volume in the market among other cartridges today. I'm not sure that any given cartridge enjoys that station any more.

I'm gonna be sitting in airports tomorrow, monday, and wednesday next week, believe I'll make a few calls to certain manufacturers to see if they're willing to share their relative production numbers for "top selling" cartridges.

It's pretty easy to check in your own area what sells the best by looking at what is stocked the most at your local Walmart and other Big Box stores. I'd have to imagine the top 3 in your Rural Southern areas are still the .30-06, .30-30, and .270. Most all the hunters in my significantly huge family in the Southern states primary goto deer rifles are .30-30 and .30-06. They always tell me "if it aint broke, don't fix it and we been using those for 100 years now". Of course you have your wildcaters like me that was always tinkering with this cartridge or that one just for something to do. I was toying with the 7mm08 years before Remington decided to pick up the round and "claim" it for it's own.

My feelings are that the younger shooter/hunters of today like the idea of "newer" rounds simply because it's "new" technology so they automatically think since it's "new" then it's better. Then you have the brilliant young ones like Mercy that are always tinkering like I did as a lad (still do) because they, as engineers and such, are never satisfied with "good" or "proven over time" and always coming up with fantastic ideas for improvement.

Then of course you have the "magnum" crowds that think whitetail deer have grown kevlar hides and need 10 feet of penetration through solid concrete just to take a scrawny little ole whitetail. Or the folks that can't hunt worth a tinkers damn and have to have 700 yard rifles/cartridge capabilities because they don't have the skills in woodsmanship to get to a reasonable range.

I'll pay closer attention to confirm or disprove this, my wife and I tend to keep a close eye on what's on the rack at Cabela's and Gander near us, and - without exaggeration - I don't recall seeing rifle chambered in 30-06 on a shelf in a few years (before Gander Mountain in Wichita remodeled their store.

Most of the Walmarts in Wichita no longer carry guns, but the one on the West side that I know does stock guns hasn't had a 30-06 that I have seen since they built it (I don't go over there too often though).

That's kinda the curiosity that drove my question - I haven't seen 30-06 or 308win rifles on shelves in a long time, so even though I'd REALLY like to believe they're still popular, I really don't think that's true.

I won't touch the 30-30 notion with a 10ft pole while wearing a rubber glove - it's very clear where leverguns in general stand today. 25yrs from now, unless there's a levergun revival between now and then, the 30-30 might be obsolete!

I'll do some calling over lunch tomorrow and over the holiday week, I'll see what companies, or at least which gun counter guys will share their numbers. While I think I'll be disappointed to confirm the 30-06 and 308win don't hold top spot any more, I really can't decide if I have a good idea what cartridge might hold that title these days.

Nm, another dependable source should be sales of reloading equipment specific to caliber. (Dies,bullets or manuals particulary)

That's the way they used to gauge popularity is sales of reloading tools & components per cartridge/caliber. I do know that after .22 rimfire (.22LR), .30 of various forms is hands down in the USA after the .223/5.56. I think the .223/5.56 (lumping them together), 30-06, 30-30, .308, .270, 7mm rem mag, 300 win mag, .243 and after that I don't know.

I don't know how dated this info is ??


1. .308 Winchester - The .308 is one of the best selling cartridges in North America and the world (#5 on most lists), so it is no surprise that it interests many readers. It is the premier all-around cartridge for short action rifles.

2. .270 Winchester - The thousands of page views garnered by my article "The Great .270 Winchester" shows that interest in this classic all-around cartridge remains high. It is #3 on most North American sales lists, and it is popular all over the world. The .270 has been the standard of comparison for long range hunting cartridges for three quarters of a century, and it may be the best balanced all-around + long range hunting cartridge ever devised.

3. .30-06 Springfield - In sales, this is the most popular hunting cartridge in North America, and it is one of the elite worldwide cartridges. Many experts regard it as the best all-around hunting cartridge in the world. The .30-06 is in use on every continent where big game is hunted, so it is no surprise that its article gets a lot of page views.

4. .45-70 Government - The interest shown in this cartridge by the readers of Guns & Shooting Online came as quite a surprise. My article "The Good Old .45-70" must have been well named, as it has gotten a great many page hits. The .45-70 is, indeed, a very good old cartridge, and the most popular big bore in North America.

5. .30-30 Winchester - The .30-30 is one of the top selling rifle cartridges in North America (#1 to #4 on the sales lists, depending on which list you read). Interest in the cartridge remains high, probably partly due to its romantic association with the Old West, and partly because it is one of the best 200 yard deer and medium game cartridges ever designed.

6. 7mm Remington Magnum - The 7mm Rem. Mag. is the most popular belted cartridge in North America, number 7 on most ammunition sales lists. It is a fine all-around cartridge, deserving of its world-wide popularity. So it is not surprising that my article "Long Range Power: The 7mm Remington Magnum" regularly gets thousands of page views.

7. .223 Remington - This cartridge owes its popularity to its adoption by the USA and NATO as a standard military round. But it is also a fine, accurate, varmint cartridge and a pleasure to shoot at the range. Ammunition is widely distributed and inexpensive. The .223 (5.56mm NATO) is #2 on most sales lists and the top selling .22 centerfire rifle cartridge in the world.

8. .270 WSM - The .270 WSM has apparently taken the lead in the short magnum sweepstakes, at least among the readers of Guns and Shooting Online. This is not a surprise, as it is probably the most useful of the breed, and the only one that isn't simply a duplicate of another cartridge.

9. .300 Win. Mag. - The world's most popular .300 Magnum is the Winchester version, which is in the top 10 on most sales lists. This popularity is evidenced by the strong interest shown in this cartridge by Guns and Shooting Online readers.

10. .243 Winchester - The .243 is one of the lightest recoiling, long range, medium game cartridges in the world. It is also a capable varmint cartridge. The .243 is a very popular cartridge worldwide (number 6 on most lists in North America). It deserves the interest that its article receives.

Note: All of these cartridges are covered in detail on the Rifle Cartridge Page.



http://www.chuckhawks.com/readers_ch...cartridges.htm

Hey pal, don't get me wrong -- I don't want to sound like I'm putting this round down. No way. I've been a firearms instructor for almost 20 years and I understand the recoil factor. And also the ballistics advantage of this round. My comment was targeted at the deer hunting situation.

I was deer hunting the other day and capped a large female coyote, 45 lbs, with a 338 Federal. I love this round and wanted to finally take my Kimber 84M out in the woods. And actually the round was a little over kill on a yote, but would not let this killer go without ending her life.

As to your comments I completely agree!!! Good hunting.

LOL wasn't talking about rifles on the shelves Mercy. Was talking about AMMO being stocked. Rifles on the shelves would be the "new crowd" for the most part while AMMO would be the existing trends.

Don't forget, however, that there are more "new shooters" in the United States from the last 10yrs than there are "old shooters". Surveys have shown that most new rifle purchases are the buyers first rifle - aka, a new shooter - and if you look at annual sales numbers versus the national projection for firearms ownership, guns bought since the year 2000 make up a substantial majority against any other 10-15yr period.

The "new crowd" is who will buy the ammo for their rifles bought off of shelves tomorrow. So when the older generation of guys that loved the 30-06 die off, and enough of the guys that were given a 30-06 or 308win as a kid by the older generation DON'T give a 30-06 or 308win to their own kids - i.e. the people buying the rifles on the shelves today, then the 30-06 and 308win lose favor on the ammo rack too.

I called pretty much everybody making and distributing bolt action hunting rifles today, I got through to two of them, and both confirmed that the 30-06 doesn't hold a top 5 spot for hunting rifle sales. One said if I call back Monday I can get better numbers, but he thought that 308win was probably still in the top 5, but is not the top seller. Both commented that MSR's and 223/5.56 sales command the market - not surprisingly.

Also not surprisingly, both confirmed there is more volatility and more variety in the market. From year to year, their numbers flip-flop, and there are more cartridges with relatively similar, relatively high sales numbers than in the past.

I'll keep following up with these folks, lots of companies to call...

What I would conclude from your initial statements is that the market is more diverse now. More people buy calibers and actions for different reasons, ie, hunting vs home defense or even a combination gun.
My take where hunting arms are concerned is that the usual standards: 30-06, 270, 308, 30-30 300WM and 7mm RM, are well entrenched in the market and are highly recommended. The influence of people known or recommendations by unknown influences considered to have knowledge-such as the recommendation we make on this site- will have a big influence on the buying public for years to come.