JBuck1911

Wow. That's F'ing awesome and impressive! You're my new hero. LOL

homers brother

Unless you're an avid small game hunter, the utility of a .22 will fade after just a couple trips to the range and you'll want to start shooting the centerfire. Unless you're a complete tyro, a .22 probably isn't necessary.

And RR is correct again, long-range shooting is expensive. I'm surprised he'll attach a price to his kit without fear that the household budget officer will discover where all the spare change is going?!

But, his kit illustrates something else as well: Long-range equipment is heavily influenced by its intended use. His is influenced by hunting. Whether you evolve in that direction or take a turn down the "tactical" road, the fundamentals are the same.

GTOHunter

Personally for Your just starting out and if You plan on doing a lot of Shooting/Target Practicing I would start out with a good .223 or a .243.....but if Your set on a .308 then go for it and enjoy.I need to go back to page 1 and see what Rifles You have linked up to see whats available....one of the nicest long range Rifles I have seen several Guys sighting in at the Range was the Remingtons with the Sythetic Stocks and the V-shaped barrels.....not sure what brand they were but they were some really nice shooting Guns!

Sheridan

This is the one I would go with if I didn't want to have to do any additional work on it.


REMINGTON ARMS CO GUNS 84456 700 TACT TGT 308 SYN


Ruger American Rifle "They gave it a 5/5 star review for accuracy and affordability."

This one is every bit of "that", though not in the same class !

Nomercy448

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Savage 10 (Or rather, I prefer the Savage 12, because I prefer stainless rifles over blued). I have owned several Remington 700's, including a few customs, and a 700PSS (Police Sharp Shooter, which has now been replaced by the 700 Police, meaning they gave it a crappier stock and finish), and most recently a Sendero and an SPS, and frankly, they're just rifles.

I have heard good things about a few Howa's, and I've heard a few bad things, never seen enough good or bad to say either side was true (they're just rifles). I personally wouldn't go there, just for the fact they haven't proven it to me yet. I DID however almost carry one of the polymer chassis style "hog hunters" out of Cableas a few weeks ago. Took a minute to get over the looks and remember it's just a Howa.

Every Savage I've played with has been a driver... Absolutely pleasureful to shoot, incredibly accurate, and with Remington's recent reduction in finish quality (and QC in general), frankly, the Savage 10 and 12 are flat nicer looking rifles than the SPS in my book. The nice part about the Savages is that you can do your own barrel (and caliber/cartridge) changes all for the price of a $75 barrel nut wrench and a new barrel. Meaning that as your skills progress, you can upgrade your barrel to a match barrel, or change calibers, for right around $400, rather than investing in an entirely new match grade rifle ($1000-3000).

Personally, I prefer the HS Precision stock on the Savage 10 over the McMillan, but that may just be old experiences dying hard. I've heard that the newer McM's have been improved greatly. Honestly, I'd be looking at the Savage 12's, but I tend to favor laminated wood highly over synthetic.

And there's no way I'd own a 30caliber rifle with a 20" barrel. Short barreled rifles aren't meant for long range play. While I don't necessarily enjoy carrying the 30"+ club rifles, with the added velocity and control on your rifle, it's well worth the extra weight. I'd be looking for a 24" minimum for a long range precision rifle.

Nomercy448

One more item, just as food for thought:

To become a skilled marksman, you need experience. It takes a lot more than a $2000-5000 rig to make 1000yrd shots (or even most 500yrd shots if we're honest).

I'm never one to suggest buying an "entry level rifle" of any kind, so getting into an "affordable" precision rifle isn't necessarily what I'm about to propose, but it won't do you much good to spend $2000 on a long range rig, then not have anything left over to spend on shooting it, or other gear you'll need (sandbags, windmeters, bipods, optics, rangefinder, ammo, ammo, ammo, reloading equipment, more ammo...).

I practice my techniques, everything from "shooting skills", like practicing trigger control, breathing, positional natural point of aim, etc, to practicing fieldcraft techniques, like estimating range, windspeed, working come-ups, and determining ideal shot placement, all with a .22lr rifle, and a .223rem rifle. The .22lr has a ton of drop, so it makes delivering even 100-150yrd shots difficult, and ammo is incredibly cheap. I can go to a 200yrd range and blow $5 worth of ammo and get the same number of shots, i.e. practice, that would cost about $100 and require a 500-800yrd range with a .308win. No, 100yrd shooting is NEVER the same as 800yrd shooting, but lining up dope properly is a universal skillset.

Similarly, with the .223rem, I can practice for about half the price, and have twice the drop compensation over the same range (long range mind you), with much less wear and tear on my shoulder as I might have from a .308win or .300wm.

One thing I learned the hardway growing up through different rifle competitions was that there are 3 interfaces with the rifle: the stock, the trigger, and the scope. The scope is your only visual control parameter. The trigger is your only manual control parameter. The stock is a matter of comfort. These all tie together: If you aren't comfortable with the stock, you may not be properly positioned to either use the scope reliably, or deliver consistent operation of the trigger. So you need a stock that fits. Then if you can't SEE what you're aiming at, you can't aim very well at it, can you? So you need a quality scope that lets you see what you're REALLY looking at (clarity, resolution, and magnification are important, among 100 other factors), otherwise you can't deliver the shot where it needs to go. Finally, now that you're comfortable with the rifle and can see your target, you MUST have a reliable, consistent interface with the trigger that lets you break the shot off without disturbing the rifle. I personally "slap" single stage triggers, so I like 2 stage triggers that let me press a higher weight "take up" to stabilize my hand, but still offer a very light and crisp "snap" for a surprise break of the shot.

On the BULLET's side of things, the barrel is the most substantial interface for the bullet. The barrel MUST impart a stable and properly tuned spin on the bullet, otherwise you're lobbing lame ducks out there. The bolt and receiver are truly secondary in my opinion, behind the barrel, as they are really only important for releasing the bullet properly INTO the barrel. If the action isn't square/true, then it won't present an even pressure on the cartridge case, and it won't release the bullet concentrically into the bore, making it hard for the barrel to do its job properly.

Ammo consistency is critical as well. A box of ammo that runs 1 shot at 2750fps and one shot at 2950fps with the other 18 shots spread out between that will print all over the place. Match grade ammo, or premium ammo, might cost more, but in general, will offer lower Extreme Spread, meaning it's more consistently loaded, and more apt to shoot to the same point of impact.

Moral of all of that is to never skimp on: ammo, scopes, triggers, or barrels. Getting receivers and stocks to suit is critical, but fairly easy. Scopes, triggers, ammo, and barrels are much easier to screw up on, so these need the utmost in attention when selecting.

homers brother

The only OBJECTIVE complaint I've heard about Savage is that, because of design variations, few manufacturers have taken on aftermarket adds. I don't shoot one for that reason. Things like "looks" are all subjective. "Looks" won't win competitions. Form should follow function, not vice-versa. It's a little misleading here to suggest that simply by slapping a match-grade barrel onto a rifle, you now have a match-grade rifle. It's quite a bit more involved. The term itself is misleading. As well, it's also misleading to suggest that barrels on non-Savage actions cannot be replaced. Yes, it's more involved, but it doesn't require purchase of a new rifle. The last barrel I changed on a Remington action cost me $600, including the barrel and the gunsmithing.

Again, your intended use will dictate the setup. Within the small community I compete, non-military calibers are not allowed. One match requires each of us (in teams of five) to pack a precision rifle (OR a shotgun), a carbine primary, and a sidearm secondary (ammo, water, and distributed team gear like spotting scopes, etc.) almost five miles across a timed course. For my uses, weight is a very significant factor. Although most of our targets are less than 1000 yards out, there are guys in upper divisions in that community who are shooting 20" .308s at steel targets a mile away - for no more reason I can see than to disprove statements like the above.

Precision equipment is specialized to its use. Concentrate your efforts on learning how to shoot well. Research the kind of long-range shooting you want to do. Check out some F-class matches at a local range and the equipment guys are using there. Decide how you want to play, then OBJECTIVELY build your equipment package around that use. Try to make it do too many things and it won't do any of them well. Don't let how things look distract you from learning how the interfaces NM very clearly describes in his second post above will affect your shooting.

Nomercy448

Homer, I gotta say I agree with your comments/criticisms, under a few caveat's, mostly based around the type of shooting the kid's doing (he's asking about long range shooting for the sake of long range shooting, not any specific competition):

My only intent by commenting on the looks is that even if I considered the SPS and a Savage 12 to be equal in function, the Savage does actually have better quality control and finish (lately). Personally, I like my rifles to look as good as they shoot. I also don't tend to strap very much to my rifles. If I want a new stock for a Savage, either I have one built, or I work one up myself (I tend to run laminate stocked rifles, unless weight says I need something lighter, gives me the opportunity to buy blanks, have them inlet, and profile them myself). Getting fiberglass stocks for Savages made isn't a challenge, and I'm not looking for tactical rails, etc etc. For my use, the crappy SPS synthetic stock MUST be replaced right out of the gate, while I could "get by" with a Savage Laminate stock (plus glass bedding). Ultimately, my point about "form" was that I personally think the Savage 10/12 will out shoot the 700SPS out of the box, has a better trigger (unless you just HATE 2-stage, or 2-stage "wanna-be" triggers), and looks better doing it to boot.

I didn't say that upgrading to a match grade barrel would turn your factory rifle into a match grade rifle, I said he could upgrade the barrel of his factory rifle to a match grade barrel, rather than forking over the cash for an entire match grade rifle. I concede that it might have been easy to misunderstand that, but my point was that he could upgrade his barrel and squeeze out a bit more accuracy, without forking out the cash to get a specialized match rifle. The kid is just talking about shooting long range for the sake of shooting long range. He doesn't really need a match rifle for that, just a well fit rifle with a good scope, barrel, and trigger.

It was the middle of the night, so I apologize that I forgot to mention it more directly, but my point was that you can change your OWN barrel on Savages (hence me saying "buy a barrel nut wrench..."). I'm sure you've noticed in many of my other posts, I find one advantage of the Savages is that I can change the barrel myself, and keep multiple barrels/bolts in different cartridges on hand. Swapping takes me about an hour to do myself. If I paid $100-200 for a gunsmith to change my barrel, as many times as I have swapped the barrels around on some of my Savages, my gunsmith would be a millionaire.



For that specific competition, I'm absolutely sure the 20" .308's do run, but you have to admit that's a very unique specialty. In my experience in run and gun steel matches, which I'm guessing would be fairly similar to this match, they were incredibly fun, but "long range shooting" was very different than "long range shooting" in precision matches (and as you're well aware, so were the rifles). In 600/1000 F-class or BR, the rifles never have to move, and they're meant to deliver 2-3" groups at 1000yrds. In my Steel and 3gun/multigun experience, like you mentioned, the rifles are made to be mobile, and the targets are much more generously sized. I'm not sure I ever saw anything smaller than a 24" wide target at 1000yrds in "action gun"/steel matches.

But that's not necessarily the type of shooting the kid is asking about. I can agree, that sometimes weight/handling trumps velocity/precision. I run a 24" AR for longer range work, a 16" for fast handling on hogs in brush, and a 20" for multigun and 3gun, to balance my accuracy and speed. As you mentioned, purpose driven design. If the kid is shooting long just for the sake of shooting long, and NOT asking about running 5miles with his rifle at low-ready, I'm hard pressed to suggest a 20" .308.

Couldn't agree more. "A Master of All is a Master of None".

Ultimately, what it SOUNDS like this kid's looking for is something in between a factory HB and a match rifle (ambiguous term). A rifle he can shoot long ranges with no specific purpose, but won't break the bank.

You might also mention how much you have in your 700's (admittedly jealous of your AI chassis), before the kid gets a lot of ideas about upgrading a factory 700. In my experience in building 2 custom 700's from "donor" rifles, it would have been cheaper and faster to start with a custom action in the first place, rather than trying to rebuild the 700's. Buying a $500 "platform rifle" seems great, but then when you look back and realize that you've put another $3500 into one over the last 2-3yrs, it adds perspective.

homers brother

I think we're tracking here.

The AI Chassis is probably one of the least expensive bolt-ons my PR wears. Generally, a phase 1.5 (non-folding) AICS is going to set you back about $900. Add another $300 if you want the compactness the phase 2.0 (folder) will provide. So, at this point, my rifle had about $1400 into it - without optics, etc. In its present state, I probably have close to $4K into it.

Yup, I wanted to start out with an AI AW myself (There's another rifle you can swap barrels on yourself, BTW). Given what I've invested in my present build, I'd be three years and probably one more JUST to purchase the AW itself. Add two more years to put the optics package together. So, I figured about six years by going that route and I'd have EXACTLY what I wanted.

To the contrary, I put this one together in just over two years, and have now been shooting it for almost two years. It'll be ready for a new barrel by the time I'd have saved enough for the AI AW I originally wanted. This is "just" a plain-old M700, but in present form it's good to 1/4 minute to 600 yards, and usually less than 1/2 minute (I become the liability, I think) to 1000.

Cheaper? If it would've been, it wouldn't have been by much. Yes, I think I'd have had MUCH more rifle for the money. Faster? Only if I'd have won the lottery while I was waiting...wishing that I had the rifle. I think it depends on what you want to do with the rifle and what resources you have available to accomplish those things.