I shot a buck at 25yds in the shoulder and the deer only ran 50yds. My bullet never exited the deer, which I thought was strange. The entrance hole was massive but bled little at first. I thought the deer should have been dumped, as close as it was.

Now, I was using a Marlin 1895 45/70 with, Rem. 300 GR SJHP and wonder if there is a better load I could try out. I'm going to have my son reload some and do some experimenting with diferent bullets. I really can't shoot the real hot loads cause Of shoulder probs but I do have a Sims recoil pad on it and It is real mild kick at this time. I could go heavier than the Gov't load I am shooting now.

Thanks for any info!

Firearms kill most efficiently when forward motion is converted into hydrostatic shock. You don't necessarily WANT your bullet to exit - any remaining momentum and energy is, at that point, wasted. I'm guessing that your deer ultimately didn't survive the encounter with your bullet?

If you want a blood trail, use a bow.

Sounds like you had a bullet failure.

Bullets for the .45-70 generally are generally designed to expand well, even at modest (or SLOW) velocities. Compared to a similarly designed bullet say in a 30cal, a .458" bullet is often built more "lightly" so it expands under lower speeds, than the 30cal bullet would.

So the bullet basically popped like a balloon upon impact, giving the large entry wound, and poor penetration. (think about doing a cannonball into the pool as a kid, that rebounding "spla-doosh" tall splash is what happened to the surface of your deer's wound).

At a longer range, or a slightly slower velocity, this might not have happened. I have the same issue with my .30-06 and CT Ballistic Silvertips. Under 50yrds, they're just moving too fast, and I've had 2 bullet failures in 10yrs (similar to yours). On the other hand, at 300-600yrds, these bullets are absolutely FANTASTIC.

With a gun like the 45/70, you DO want the bullet to exit. You would also like the bullet to mushroom somewhat, but with a 45 cal bullet that is less important. A deer won't survive a 45 cal hole through its vitals, and two holes leak better than one. Guys smarter than me (like Elmer Keith and others) have debunked the energy dump theory with larger caliber slower moving bullets. Basically, you have not hit the animal as hard as you can until you have driven the bullet through the animal.

I have shot deer with the Remington 300 gr short jacket HP, and at close range they did what yours did. The 405 gr RN would perform better at close range. It is not a heavy recoiling round either. Shot through the lungs/ribs, it may not expand, but who cares? The deer won't be far. If you want to anchor them, shoot through the shoulders with the 405 gr load.

Elmer Keith was the proponent of the cast hollowpoint bullet - AFTER arriving at the conclusion that cast hollow points expanded better than cast solid points.

Years ago, I shot a deer at about 50 yards with a 240 gr JSP from a .44 magnum. The bullet went through one shoulder and exited behind the other. I suppose it's a good thing two holes make a better blood trail, because I needed it to find him. Nicked the heart, holed the lungs. Two years later, I shot another deer under almost the same conditions with a 240 gr "Keith-style" cast hollowpoint. The bullet entered behind one shoulder and was found lodged underneath the other. The deer was DRT. Heart and lungs were jelly. Another deer the next year told the same story.

I think Keith was right about cast hollowpoints. That's the only bullet I'll use for a .44 Magnum anymore if I'm deer hunting. Any claim he made about exit wounds being required are arguable and extremely dependent on impact velocity. Regardless, if the bullet has expanded in the manner it was intended (and Keith was an advocate of expansion too), an exit wound isn't necessary.

The .45-70 worked for well over a century with simple lead bullets on every game animal on this continent, if not the planet. The .30-06 has worked almost as long with simple cup-and-core jacketed bullets. The fact that we haven't always had so many choices of ammunition might be our undoing today when we do have those choices and we're at greater risk of selecting ammunition inappropriate for our use. If I were ever to hunt elk or deer with a .45-70, it'd be with plain-old standard weight cast ammunition, not heavyweight cast, and certainly not jacketed.

It ran 50 yards and died, sounds like it did its job. Doesnt matter what you hit the critter with, sometimes they wont go without a fight. Personally, I stuff my 45/70 marlin with my own reloads, 350gr FP Hornadys in starline brass, WLR primers, and about 45gr of RL7. Thats under max. It kicks like a mule though. Lighter loads with that bullet will still perform great. I, myself, prefer the entry and exit hole strategy. Two holes to bleed out is better then one. A 45/70, since it goes rather slow, doesnt do alot of hydroshock damage as say, an '06 would. Its going thru like a cookie cutter, carving a hole over half an inch around all the way thru the animal. The meat damage around the bullet holes will be evidence of such. Cut a clean hole thru the animal, even if you miss the heart, its gonna bleed like a stuck pig. Now, take a 300RUM, at the same ranges as a 45/70 will shoot a deer at, and look at the damage around one of those holes. Little more meat loss there lol

I should add, I chose the hornady bullet over the remington bullets, after reading alot of negative reports on bullet failure, for both of their bullet weights. I know, its the internet, but plenty of pics to go with it, makes you pay attention. The ultimate 45/70 bullet, would be one from swift, pricey, but picture perfect mushrooms.

I'm happy the bullet did its job and there was an enormous blood trail after 15 yds but suprised the deer wasn't dropped in his tracks. I might add, the chest cavity was like jelly from the shock. Not complainen, just want to work up a better load and I know there are some out there. Love the rifle, wouldn't trade it for nothing. To me it is special to hunt with.

Not looking for blood trails, just looking for a better load if possible.

Thanks for the info!

Mac

Try out the Hornady LeveRevolution 325grn FTX's. I hit a 300lb+ 11pt buck in the heart and lungs at 250yrds this winter, he made it 30yrds and crumpled. My wife hit a 180lb doe at 110yrds that went down DRT. They're fast, flat, very accurate, and hit like a truck. My wife gets 3/4" groups at 100yrds out of her Marlin 1895 Guide Gun (stainless of course).

And to be honest, the .45-70 SEEMS like it would offer a huge hydrostatic shock, but in practice, it really doesn't. It hits pretty hard initially because of it's big diameter, but the temporary cavity (a measure of hydrostatic shock and stopping power) is actually much smaller than that of say a .30-06, even though it has about 40-50% more energy. The .45-70 is moving SLOW, so tissue (the "hydro" part) has more time to move out of the way, rather than accepting damage (the "static" part).

Personally, the only reason I want an exit wound is for blood trail. Arguing that a bullet transfered MORE energy if it exits is simply wrong. Keith's comments were that a bullet that FRAGMENTS, wastes energy. A bullet that fragments is wasting energy. For example, getting hit in the face with 1lb of sand sucks, but doesn't really hurt, getting hit in the face with a 1lb rock pretty much ruins your day. However, simple physics proves that a bullet that exits did NOT transfer more energy than a bullet that stops in the animal. The only difference is how efficiently that energy was transfered, and how much damage resulted FROM the transfer.


What I want from a deer hunting bullet is about 2x diameter expansion, and 80%+ weight retention. In general, that should give me a golfball to tennisball sized exit wound on a heart and lung broadside hit. In general, that range of damage gives me quick drops, but would offer relatively controlled meat loss if I happen to hit the a shoulder. It also means my bullet is HARD/TOUGH enough that if I DO hit the shoulder, it will probably break it, rather than deflecting and "giving up". I have used rounds that gave more AND less exit wound, and frankly, they either did too much meat damage, or didn't drop enough blood trail.

A deer running 50yrds and dying is a good day. There is no reason that getting sudden heart and lung trauma should drop any animal in its tracks. Sudden imobilization is caused by hydrostatic shock, which effects the CNS. If you're using a bullet that's too hard, that drills a hole straight through your target, it won't generate much hydrostatic shock. If you use a bullet that fragments, you won't generate much hydrostatic shock. If you use a bullet that mushrooms to 2x of it's original diameter, but doesn't break apart, it's very likely to exit (penetration is improved due to the good weight retention), and it's very likely to do a LOT of damage along the way, producing a huge temporary cavity and a huge hydrostatic shock wave. Temporary cavity is a big deal for me, that suggests how extreme the hydrostatic shockwave really is. The easy test is shooting gallon jugs of water. The bigger the water spray, the better the hydrostatic shock.

If you reload the .45-70, contact your bullet manufacturer to find the proper velocity range for expasion. Some .45-70 bullets are designed more like handgun bullets, so they'll expand south of 1000fps. The problem is that if you push them up over 2000fps and hit a deer at 20yrds, the bullet is very likely to fragment (bullet failure), and not give very good wound characteristics. But the same bullet at 100yrds might perform flawlessly.

I am not going to take one side or the other about "energy transfer". All I want is a clean kill and then be able to find the darned thing. In my book, an exit wound at the least adds the possibility of an addition "hole" leaking blood. As far as wound, from a 243 Win. up, for sure, ain't no deer in the NA woods that can survive a 2X expansion of a quality hunting bullet if that bullet passes through the engine room. Might run a 100 yards or so, but it'll be as dead as Jimmy Hoffa in only a handful of seconds.

Chest shots with a 45.70 Gov. at 25 yards! Are you kidding me !!! May as well have detonated a grenade in that deer's chest ! That 50 yards was nothing less than a "dead deer running".

If you want to try another factory load, look at the Hornmady Leverlution. I switched to it in my 444 Marlin and am very pleased with the performance.