The Thompson Venture is already bought and paid for. I paid for it on Friday and it's in the mail now. For, ammo I had my sights set on Winchesters ballistic Silvertips but after doing allot more reading on here and other sights it appears that ballistically it's not the best ammo like I thought it was. Additionally the going consensus is that I need to fire a multitude of different manufactured ammo to find what the gun likes best.

Based on this I intend to order these loads and see which ones hold the best group:

Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertip 115 gr
Hornady Superformance 117 gr SST
Federal Nosler Ballistic tip Vital-Shok 100 gr
Remington Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded 115 gr

I got to go down and take a look at where were hunting at in November and while I was told the max range shots would be about 250 -300 yards I found that actually the longest shot will be about 150 yards. The only shots past that range would be if I'm at the top of a hill and shooting down through the tops of trees and other brush (not Ideal). Based on that I'm going with the heavier grained rounds (100gr+). If their were longer shots then I would go with the 85gr loads, but that's not the case.

Can't say which one I will pick until I shoot them all. If anyone can link me some other loads to try I am more than willing?

PS... The barrel length is 22in. Since I could only find one NEW IN BOX thompson venture in 25-06 I couldn't afford to be picky.

Personally, from everything I've read about them I think you would do very well with the Savage Axis. Reports from owners show that they shoot very well and they get better if you at some point in the future would add an adjustable aftermarket trigger.

As othes have said, it's foolish to choose your ammo before your rifle. If you're going to be shooting off the shelf, then buy and try as many brands as you can. Many rifles have a clear preference for a certain load, so if you're interested in maximizing your rifle, use what the rifle likes not what you like.

Grouse

I thought some facts from a recoil chart would be helpful:

Cartridge (Wb@MV) Rifle Weight Recoil energy Recoil velocity [/U]
243 Win. (95 at 3100) 7.25 11.0 9.9

257 Roberts (120 at 2800) 8.0 10.7 9.3

25-06 Rem. (120 at 3000) 8.0 12.5 10.0

6.5x55 Swed (140 at 2650) 9.0 10.6 8.7

260 Rem. (140 at 2750) 8.25 11.9 9.7

7x57 Mauser (139 at 2700) 8.75 11.7 9.3

7mm-08 Rem.(140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1

30-30 Win. (150 at 2400) 7.5 10.6 9.5

30-30 Win. (170 at 2200) 7.5 11.0 9.7

The above were chosen to show similar recoil. As you can see, you can shoot a bigger more effective bullet with the same or similar recoil. Take your choice! Sorry if it looks jumbled. It looks fine when writing it but, the spaces disappear when published.

We've already been there, see OP page 2.

I will now propose a permanent ban on information coming from Chuck Hawks' recoil table. When it finally compares apples to apples (rifles of equal weight), then I might reconsider. Aside from that and just to illustrate a point, my old "needle-and-dial" thermostat seemed to work just fine until I replaced it with a digital. Now those one or two degrees one way or the other (now that she can associate them with a SPECIFIC number) become critically important to my wife, who always insists now that the house is either too warm or too cold. And she has the PROOF now to show me! Ahem.

Recoil energy, in and of itself, is about as practically useful to most of us as that little white spacer sometimes found between the forearm and the sling stud. If I were to put rifles identical but for caliber side-by-side, does anyone here REALLY think they'd be able to tell the difference between the recoil of a .243 and a .257 Bob without looking at a cartridge? I sure don't think I could. Yeah, I could probably tell the difference between a .243 and a .270, not that it matters all that much, the bullet will have already left the barrel.

I don't mean to slam you, BB - my apologies if you feel I have. It's just that I'm a little tired of all the data out there on the internet that often doesn't contribute much to the decision cycle but help split hairs that don't need splitting.

UPDATE * * * * *

I told you all I would post back with my final choice and results. Well here it is. After winning my bid and paying for the gun It took a week for it to get in from ordering (gunbroker.com) and then one more day for my background check to get done and get it picked up (the extra day was my fault for not getting to the store untill right at closing time - work and such).

I ordered the Thompson Center 25-06. I added a slipon limbsaver recoil pad and a Nikon ProStaff 3-9x40 scope with the BDC reticle. I had intended to get the redfield scope but when I got up to Bass pro to buy it they didnt have the one I wanted in stock (Accu-Range reticle 4-12x40) and I didn't much care for the plain jane reticle one so I went with the Nikon Prostaff BDC instead. Glad I did.

I had Bass pro mount the scope and boresight it... they did this for free since I bought the scope there. Took the rifle out to some fields near my grandparents house and the first shot was 5in high and 5 in to the right. Made the adjustments to the scope and it was dead center every shot thereafter.

Gave the rifle over to my son and he shot 15 rounds in about the span of an hour or so and when he was done there was no bullseye left on the target. The target was the 1inch grid type paper target with a 1inch red square in the center and after his 15 rounds there was no 1in red square left, except around the edges.

He loves the gun and I must say I am impressed with his shooting. He was shooting at 100 yards. After he was done and felt confident with it, I gave it a whirl and moved the target stand back to 150 yards and put on a new target. I shot it 5 times and the holes it left in the paper, it was hard to tell were one hole ended and another hole started in one tight little circle about the size of a nickel.

I have to say that this thompson rifle is bad to the bone. I will say that it is loud as hell though. We both had to put in ear plugs after the first shot. The recoil is about the same as a m16a2 or so it seems. I couldn't even feel it recoil and my son never complained.

The rounds we were using were the Hornady Superformace 117gr, the Federal Nosler Ballistic Silvertip 115gr, and the Winchester Supreme Ballistic silvertip 115gr. My son did 5 rounds from each of those 3 and I did 5 rounds from the Hornady ones. We couldn't tell the difference in any of the three different types. None of them shot outside the 1 inch bullseye's square. I guess the rifle like's all three brands?

I am happy with this purchase as is he. Thanks allot for everyones input and advice.

WHEN (not if) he get's his first deer in one month I will be sure to come back and post up a picture of it for all to see. Take care untill then.

Sounds like you got a winner! Maybe all the "homework" helped your selection.

Best of luck to you and your son with the new rifle. I am sure you will enjoy it for years.

My feeling are not hurt. Any sincere discussion is what all of this is about. However, I have to disagree with you.

The point of the chart was to demonstrate that a variety of rounds are available with similar recoil and similar performance. If you notice, I selected those calibers for those qualities. I wanted to give Oakie76 some viable choices.

Like it or not, recoil energy is a objective measure of the effect on a shoulder . Of course, clothing, weight, experience and personal recoil tolerance are variables. It is simply a way of comparing. It tells even the novice that one caliber will recoil more or less than another. In Oakies case, he could look at a chart and know that your 257 Bob would be more comfortable for his son to shoot than a full load '06. It is a tool to help.

Horsepower is a measure of performance but it does not tell the whole story. Same here. As always, a buyer must do their homework and no tool should be dismissed.

You've missed my point - this chart, and many other "tools" like it often achieve little beyond complicating the obvious.

Even you reference a number of variables that upset the very legitimacy of your recoil chart, and to be objective, you've only scratched the surface of all the possibilities.

Further, describing the calibers you listed as of similar performance is a bit of a stretch. While they may possess similar recoil numbers on paper, the applications for which they are appropriate vary. Compare hunting pronghorn with a .243 - or worse, a .25-06 - and a .30-30 and the practical limitations of the latter become quite clear.

And to what degree are the numbers associated with those recoil comparisons useful? Is a difference of half a ft/lb something significant? Two ft/lbs? Six? You tell us. Again, the variables you suggest come into play. In Okie's case, the simple physics behind the fact that the .30-06 throws a heavier bullet at similar velocity ought to be a fairly reliable comparator of recoil. One doesn't need a chart if you stay focused on the fundamentals.

I'm not suggesting that "horsepower" is any more useful in comparing calibers than is "recoil energy". All that "horsepower" has zero effect on target if there's so much recoil that the shooter flinches and misses the target. What you term "tools" are better termed "references", and should never be construed as "recommendations." They might help a novice develop a general sense of what class calibers they're working with or should be looking for, but little beyond that.

I am not saying that this chart that I quickly found is the sum of all information. However, since you pointed out that bullet weight make a difference, you will notice that, with one exception, the bullets are of similar weight.

My point was that, you have to start eliminating alternatives with some objective comparison. If you do not like this chart, it does not make the recoil energy comparison invalid. It is a start to picking a couple of potential calibers. the likely range expected will also eliminate calibers. I would not pick a 30-30 for antelope hunting out west. Oakie mentioned possibly hunting at longer ranges so, the 30-30 might not be his best choice.

Obviously, budget, style, weight, etc., will influence the actual rifle selected. In the end, fit might be a good final decision maker when you come down to 2 or 3 rifles.

I have selected ammo based on ballistic tables and selected calibers and rifles using charts showing their performance with various loads. It takes a bunch of research to narrow things down to the fit and feel time. I have been disappointed once on a muzzleloader. That was due to unreliable ignition; something that could not be predicted.

Well, I told you I would be back in a month for an update of how the hunt went. Day 1 at 07:34 (barely an hour into the hunt this nice eleven pointer stepped out of the woods on the far end of the field. My son saw him first so he got to shoot.

Aimed in and after about 10 seconds.... BAM !

The deer jumped about 3 feet straight up in the air and hoped about 30 yards into the field and then did like a spin kick and his legs went straight up into the air and that's were he stayed. We waited about a half hour to let him die then went down and got him. After field dressing him we found that my son had shot him right through the lungs. The entry wound was so small it was hard to find but the exit wound on the other side was about the size of a baseball. We were using some 85gr Superformance Hornady rounds. (Had planned on using 115gr's but we ended up shooting all those on the range and I had a box of the 85's. Range was about 180 paces from our stand, so I'm guessing about 130 yards. here is the pic of it:



For the next 5 days of the hunt all I saw were doe's. In the county we were hunting it is legal to take a doe any day of the week but I never did. On the sixth day at around 09:30am I watched a buck come into the field from the opposite side of a big thicket about 45 yards wide. He hoped in and never came out. After waiting on him to come out for about an hour i got impatient and got out of the stand and walked down to where he went in. I was doing my best to be sneaky but he heard me coming when I was about 75 yards off (he was laying down right on the edge of the thicket. when he jumped up he ran through the thicket and out the other side.

I thought for sure he was lost so I walked up to the thicket and as I rounded the side of it he was standing about 15 yards from my stand on the side of the field I had just come up. I raised up and took aim and BAM !

When my round struck him, it spun him around completly by the front and he sort of hoped / ran about 20 yards and collapsed. After we get him field dressed I found that it was a heart shot. Here is a pic of mine:



He's got kind of a scrawnty rack compared to my sons, not to mention only 7 points versus my sons 11.

All in all a good first hunt for my boy. He is already talking about next year's hunt