Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Now, I want to be sure I put this up front - I' m not talking about taking them off the market, but why anyone would choose to use a semiauto rifle over the other options available to him? Is it the jamming? The poorer accuracy? The only reason I can conceive of (and that I' ve heard ad nauseum), is a faster second shot. I don' t believe that' s true at all, actually. Unless you' re shooting a gun that doesn' t kick at all, I would bet money that I can get an aimed second shot off just as fast with my bolt action.

Obviously, there are going to be people who simply like semiautos for no real reason, and I' m not saying you shouldn' t be able to do it, by all means.. but I honestly can' t see any benefit. I' d get a single-shot rifle before a semiauto - at least they' re a little more accurate than a bolt (theoretically).

Yeah, it' s late, I just want to talk. :)

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Well you started off making 3 assumptions that are off base . One is that a single shot is more accurate than a bolt action . Number 2 is that semi-autos are inaccurate or not as accurate as a bolt. Number 3 is that an operator of a bolt action could squeeze off lets say 5 rounds as fast and as accurately as a semi-auto. 1) If single shots were more accurate than bolt actions then they would be the weapon of choice of bench rest shooters. I also own Ruger number 1' s and yes they are fun to shoot and an absolute thing of beauty but a good bolt will outshoot them on any given day. 2) I know a lot of people yours truly included that shoot autoloaders(Not Remington) that shoot as well as most bolt actions in fact some are downright scary especially some of the older browning BARS. 3) There is no way someone could squeeze off multiple AIMED rounds with a bolt action faster than I could with a BAR. Another benefit of a semi auto is with larger magnum cartridges the recoil is softer. As far as reliability it depends on who is taking care of the gun and how well it is maintained. I have never ever nor have any of my hunting group and others that have owned BAR' s ever complained about jams etc etc. I cannot say the same about Remingtons in this regard . My personal preference in a rugged hunting situation would be a bolt action but not because I have had any bad experiences with an autoloader. They just balance and point better and generally have a shorter OAL thats just MHO.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

i find my semi BAR shoots just as good and even better than several of my bolt action firearms. also if you take care of your semi it will never jamn. min hasn' t yet

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

FL/GA Hunter is correct in that in general bolts are more accurate than semi autos. I' ve seen a few autos that were very accurate, but in general they don' t have near the accuracy potential of bolts. To draw off oldelkhunter' s example, when I see automatics taking the benchrest matches I' ll become a believer. Single shot are in the same boat. They haven' t been proven to have the accuracy of bolts although I have seen a few very accurate No. 1 Rugers. I once owned a Browning single shot 22-250 that was very accurate, but it was the exception and not the rule.

Many autos will jam, with some designs being worse than others. Of couse there are some designs that seldom if ever jam.

All that being said, it really doesn' t matter in the grand scheme of things. We' re all intitled to shoot what we like. If someone likes a bolt, auto, lever, pump, singleshot, etc, more power to them. I only use bolts for serious work, but I love all guns.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

I haven' t used my 742 to hunt with in several years mainly because of its weight more than my bolts and with age lighter is better for carrying.The only time I can see that a auto would be better is when dog hunting where rifles are used.I have dropped 2 out of 3or4 running on these hunts more than once in my eariler years,with a Rem 742.and actually have taken my longest shot deer with this 742 infront of the dogs,only because thats what I was using at the time.
I think it is personal choice to what one uses especially here where I hunt either one works for deer.
Don' t really think anyone can get off more aimed shots with a bolt compared to someone that shoots a auto regularly bases though.You could compared to me though because I am older and a lot slower.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

In general bolts are more accurate.Some autoloaders are much more reliable than others but I have yet to see one that has never jammed at least once or twice under the harsh conditions that I hunt under in alberta and saskatchewan. It is much harder to keep a semi auto from jamming in -30 temperatures than it is in warmer climates.Having a fast second shot is a poor excuse for a poorly placed first shot.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

I have always believed that bolts were the most accurate around. Why is it that snipers use these exclusively? Less room in the chamber for potential misalignment.

Fla/Ga, I have a Rem 742 semi as well. I inherited it from my father who purchased it back in 1970 for a whopping $ 200. What about yours?

The gun is a beauty. It still looks like new, hits its mark every time. Last year, I had a jamb and this was the first time I pulled it completely apart to find that some pine needles got behind the firing pin. However, it does weigh a ton and the first few days of the season my arms ache from dogging through the bush with it.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

If by NEED you are referring to being necessary for hunting,... then no, there is no real NEED.
But I NEED to buy more guns, therefore I will NEED to buy me a BAR, An M1, A Swedish Lungman, and maybe a FN49. Just cause I have a NEED to shoot many different guns.
I hunt with Bolts now. But before my gun cabinet was so full, I would occaisionally hunt souther Michigan with my old browning A-5 stuffed with buckshot. Worked fine then and would probably work fine now. Never had a jam. Folks with auto' s need to learn that you only need to oil for storage. Clean and DRY is better in the field.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

It' s our RIGHT to buy them. Please don' t give the anti' s ideas on why we NEED them. Some people pefer the semi for their OWN reasons not yours. I like shooting single shots for hunting but for shooting paper I like a good ol' Semi, especially along the lines of a AR-15, AR-10, M1A, FNFAL, etc....

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

If I were to buy a .223, I would choose a competition model AR over a bolt gun any day. They are as accurate if not more accurate than a bolt gun and are alot more fun to shoot[8D]

Semiauto rifles have been used as sniper for a very long time- SVT-40' s, Gewehr 43' s, M1C' s, M1D' s, M14' s, Dragunov' s (built on AK actions), Stoners, (built on AR actions) Barret .50' s, even the .50 Ma Deuce machine gun, not to mention that european forces probably use something based on a FAL or G2 for sniping.

A carefully fitted semiauto will lock up just as tight and true as a bolt action, in fact alot of modern semiautos use a rotating bolt that locks up just like a bolt action.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

My mistake. I never claimed to be an expert.[&:]

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Anyone who claims that a semi-auto is less accurate than a bolt-action hasn' t seen a Les Baer Custom AR-15 in action. I only wish I could afford one, as it would defniately be my choice for a varmint/coyote rifle, as well as just a hyper-accurate fun gun for punching paper. We had a skilled shooter at my local range with one recently with a Baer that was consistantly shooting groups at 100 yards that could be covered by a nickel or less. I' d put it up against any stock or lightly modified bolt-gun I' ve ever seen.

Mike

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Yes, but try to get a stock or lightly modified semiauto to shoot that well. That is the only problem I have with semi' s. The cost difference is quite large.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

In all honesty, just DO NOT tell my fiance this, there is no real need for any gun while deerhunting, there' s probably no need for bows either, I' m sure people have killed deer with a thrown stone, but where' s the fun in that? Why do I NEED a bolt action to hunt deer? because it' s your favorite action type? I' d much prefer a six-shooter .44mag to a bolt gun in any caliber. As far as cartridge arms go, there' s really no need for anything more than a single shot, but when was the last time anyone heard someone trying to ' ban' bolt guns in favor of single shots? Why should I be restricted to not using my gun of choice because it' s not your gun of choice?

As far as hunting goes, semiautos are more than accurate enough to be successful, it varies by arm and user just like any other action, but I don' t really see why I need to shoot better than 6" groups at 200yrds, which is absolutely NOT impossible for almost ANY semiauto I' ve ever shot (I' ve had several that would shoot under 1.5MOA out to 300yrds, and you won' t prove to me that 4.5" groups from a 30-06 won' t kill a deer!). No, the most accurate semiauto won' t outshoot the most accurate bolt gun, but then we' re talking about 1000yrd shooting an splitting hairs, knocking a deer in the dirt at under 300yrds is an entirely different story. I' ve got an SKS that I can shoot better with a 3x42mm glass than a buddy of mine (quite a successful shooter with other guns) can with a Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 featherweight (once offered for at $4500) with a 4xglass, and better than another buddy can with a 16x glass on a 6.5x55swe mauser and a Marlin .30-30 336 with a 16xglass, not all bolts are more accurate than all semiautos, my ruger and my fiance' s .308 mauser blows it away, but it' s a much better shooter than hunting scenarios would ever dictate a need for.

Why do we need to get rid of semiautomatic hunting arms? How does it hurt you that I don' t have to jack a bolt, pump a slide, break a bbl, drop a block, swing a lever? I can have a faster and more accurate second shot (when and if needed) because I don' t have to remove my hands from a shooting position, cycling a bolt requires rebounding from the recoil, removing the hand, cycling the action, replacing the hand and repositioning it into a ' comfort hold' , and aiming then firing, semiauto' s simply require rebounding and re-aiming and firing. I don' t know why it hurts people so bad that other hunters use a self cycling arm? I guess they just don' t like other people having an advantage on them, I can get the same huntability and equivalent field performance in the field from my semiauto arms as I do my bolt guns, but I don' t have to reposition myself after ever shot, I get the same five shots as you do, but I' m at an advantage because I can pull them faster, and I can ' re-aim' faster as well, so I get a 50yrd shot and a 75yrd shot instead of a 50yrd shot and a 100yrd shot.

The reliability issue is valid, you might have to search for a semiauto that won' t let you down, but why would anyone keep a gun that isn' t reliable? I never would, there' s no point in having a gun that you can' t trust your life to if you would need it? How many times have you seen a semiauto jam just lowering the hammer on the first shot?

Just because bolt guns on average are more accurate and more

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Yay! Discussion. :) This is going to take me a while, so I' m probably going to respond to some of you guys in different posts.

First and foremost, I want to respond specifically to the guy who said not to give the antis any more help, and anybody else who had the same sentiment. I tried very carefully in the beginning of the post to say that I was not taking these guns away at all, and if you simply like semiautos, that' s more than fine. I simply like bolt actions, and I' d be resistant to using another type of gun, too. I have no issue with that. I just wanted somebody to convince me that they were better than a bolt or a lever or a single-shot in some important gun category.

[8D]

OK, I' m going to try for responses now... wish me luck. :D

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

First issue: there are some autoloaders that are just as accurate as some bolt actions.

Yes, of course. And there are some very accurate lever actions, too. But I' m pretty sure that as long as you guys were being really honest, if I told you ' bet your life on which gun is more accurate' and showed you a bolt and a semiauto side-by-side, as long as the bolt wasn' t a piece of crap, and as long as the semiauto wasn' t a $5000 gun, you' d take the bolt. That' s what I' m saying, in general. In general, two guns of similar quality will produce better accuracy in the bolt action.

The guys who say ' you just have to take really good care of it, and it won' t jam' :

Yes, of course. But that' s a lot more effort than a bolt. If you had to take one of two guns with you, and you knew that for two weeks you' d be away from cleaning supplies, etc, and in harsh conditions, which would you trust more - a standard semi, or a standard bolt? Taking all emotion and knowledge of specific guns out of the equation, a bolt is generally more predictable and more dependable.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Briman and drift,

Why snipers sometimes choose semiauto sniper rifles: #1, they have free access to some of the best, and most expensive semiautos in the world, which will of course be of better quality and decent accuracy, and #2, they' re still soldiers. If you were going to take a rifle to be a military sniper, and had to defend yourself, as well as take the standard sniper shots, you' d pick a semiauto for it' s more rapid-fire ability.

If you watch the sniper competition that' s held at Ft. Benning every year, though, you' ll see something very interesting: when it' s time to simply hit targets, every last sniper carries a bolt-action rifle.

I will agree that a $5000 semiauto will outshoot a good bolt action. That' s not convincing me to get a semiauto, though. :)

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

My first hunting rifle was a .44 mag semiauto from Ruger. Never jammed, and it shot reasonably well... it was enough range for a ten year old with buck fever. [8D]

I' ll agree with getting semiautos to punch paper - in fact, talking to you guys has made me want to go get a good crisp rifle to play with.

The other people in this thread brought up something I wasn' t even thinking about - semis are even heavier guns. Guess I' m definitely not getting one to take out West.

Yes, I will actually bet money that I can work a bolt fast enough to get a second shot off with you guys and your semis. Don' t laugh until you' ve seen it, I promise. :)

Nomercy, you had a good post going - you should come back and pick up where you left off! Thanks to everybody for the discussion... It' s still summertime, and I needed a little gun talk.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

When you look at both guns and action other then the gas sytem which gets cleaned once a year or before a big hunt...maintenance is very similiar to that with a bolt action...I mean you have to clean out the locking lug recesses on a bolt gun don' t you why wouldn' t you do it on a semiauto.? The bolt has to be stripped down and cleaned occasionally and oiled etc etc very similiar maintenance. I am down in your neck of the woods a couple of times a year if you care to follow up on your bet....

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Are you talking about hunting in my neck of the woods, or do you just come down here for family/work/other? As an ' old elk hunter' , I' d actually be up to visiting you come bugling season. :D

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

I read your post and got your not wanting to take away. But the title of the topic gives any Anti plenty of fuel. Yes there is a need. You might not have the need and that' s fine, I don' t have the need for a double rifle in .460 but what the heck... go buy one if you want :D

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

FLA/GA nope I have family there ...the heat and mosquitoes are a little more than I can take come hunting season. Lived down there 10 years and hunted GA and Out WEst every single year just to keep things interesting. I usually head down there Thanksgiving and Easter and sometimes during the summer to do some offshore fishing.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

BTW the only ELk you' ll find around here are either in Zoo' s or in the Smokies...Hopefully in my lifetime I' ll draw a permit and get one in Kentucky or even here in NC...

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Ahhh... NC. Gotcha. My family used to vacation there every summer... I loved making the drive across the border to Cade' s Cove. God, there are a lot of deer there.

TScottW99 - Absolutely... but I can actually make a case for buying a .460 (yeah, I' m going hunting in Africa for a month, going to get a water buffalo), whereas I really couldn' t point to a reason I' d ever buy a semiauto. (personal tastes and ' just cuz I wanna' aside ;))

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Here' s an semiauot advantage that most people don' t realize-
When sound of the bolt cycling is covered up by the muzzle report. If you were to need a quick follow up shot without spooking game before the shot like say for instance if you somehow had a hornet sting you on the back of the neck causing you to jerk your shot causing you to miss a record book buck, cycling the bolt on a bolt action will make enough noise to draw the animals attention to where you are at, whereas the game will never hear your action cylcling with a semiauto.

The first muzzle report alone will not draw attention to you because down range the animal will hear the loud splat of the bullet hitting, brush, trees, or mud in one direction and hear a loud boom coming from another.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

You get what you pay for as with anything. A semiauto has alot more moving parts than a bolt action. Producing a semiauto like a remington 7400 or an SKS for the same price as a moderate quality bolt gun isn' t going to get you much in the way of accuracy, or even functionality as in the case of the Remington. A semi auto is a great technological advancement over a bolt rifle and with technological advances comes a higher price for quality. Its almost like comparing a motorcycle to a bicycle.;)


Shooting from a stack of sandbags will give a well made bolt action a huge edge over any semiauto, but in the real world, not too many shoot their guns like that out in the field. From my bit of highpower rifle experience, I' ve been shooting a carefullly assembled 03A3 Springfield this year, and I have shot nothing but bolt actions in the past, except for using Garands a few times. The 03 is easily as accurate if not more accurate than most of the semi-auto' s including m1a' s and AR-15' s that are not match tuned- I simply cannot compete with them because cycling the bolt in rapid fire requires me to break my cheek weld and reset my position after each shot, whereas semi shooters just ride out the recoil and allow their rifle to come back down to their natural point of aim.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

I wouldn' t be afraid to put my stock factory 40xbks up against any semi auto reguardless of the cost as far as accuracy is concerned and it only cost me $1600 canadian when I bought it several years ago..

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

:D;)[:o][:-]:eek: I would think that the reason that people chose the semiauto is that they can waste more ammo.... If you are a good hunter you have no real reason for a second ..... I have shot all my deer with one thought in mind "
1 shot 1 kill.... If I can not completly sure that the shot is a 100% kill shot then chances are I will not take the shot.... But then that is me ..... :)[8D][&:]:eek::D[:o][:-][&o]

The reason for all the faces is to my daughter { MEGAN .... She is 4 and wanted to see them }....

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

My cousin is 86 years old and suffers from arthritis, and is considered a mobility Impaired Hunter. He still hunts but has a hard time working a bolt action, so he now uses a semi-auto. If it was not for the semi-auto, he might not be able to hunt anymore. Good luck.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Awesome reason. Thanks, handloader.

And Daffy, good thing you put in that p.s.... :D I was beginning to think you were schizo.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

The way I got my 742 was many years ago,one of my hunting buddies had it,and was sort of careless with it.He put it in his van(glad I wasn' t with him at the time) and he didn' t unload it so It went off and shot a hole through his van,after him telling me a bout that I just had to get it away from him if I was going to hunt with him so I traded him a bolt 30/06 for it.He couldn' t hit a bull in the a-- with it anyway.
It was a used one when he got it and I don' t really know if it jamed any with him but since I have had it (and killed many deer with it) have never had it to jam,I haven' t even shot it in many years.Think I need to get it out and shoot it if I ever get time,have so many others I shoot.
oldelkhunter where you located I live in Newton,NC
you might get to hunt elk here if you live long enough,they turned some loose a few years back.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Sure there are some folks buliding very accruate autos, but when I see then winning benchrest competitions I' ll become a true believer. Till then I' ll stick with bolts when looking for tack driving rifles.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Herman, I live in Kernersville...

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

You seemed to have answered everyone but me [:' (]. There was yourself and another person on this board who owned a 742 and some comment would be great :D

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

That is an excellent point Briman ...my brother uses a BAR and whenever he missed a shot noticed that the Deer just milled around unaware of where the shot came from.

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

LOL. No, actually, I don' t own a 742... I think you got me mixed up with another post that immediately followed it. My comment about my first rifle being a Ruger .44 Mag was directed towards you, because I didn' t have anything else to contribute. Sorry, Taxdude! ;)

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

Fla/Ga hunter did you like that Ruger carbine? I bought one new in the early 80' s and the gunshop that sold it to me said that the early production models were much better built...like to have one again...that was a handy little gun...

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

WoW, that must have been some great stuff I was smoking :eek:

My comments were actually supposed to be sent to Herman.

So, how bout it Herm? [:-]

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[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Convince me there is a real NEED for a semi
 

I like semi' s. Especially in this day and age where property lines are so disputed. Some of the places I hunt in MD are very small lots, and you really need to get them down before they cross the property boundries.