co___d and locked question
 

The thread about carrying in condition 1 has gotten me thinking I should get comfortable carrying that way.

I have a Kimber Tactical Ultra with an ambidexterous safety. For now it would be carried in an OWB holster co___ed and locked.

With ambidexterous safeties are there problems with the safety being accidentally disengaged? For example swinging arm motion runs up against the safety and unlocks the safety. Or is that something you need to develop an awareness of...the condition of your slide safety.

Thanks.

I have talked with a lot of glock owners and seem ****ed and looked is the way to go. GLocks have no safety out side the trigger safety. Still torn on it myself, but am going to ****ed and locked for now

I was watching that thread as well....

It will take more than your ambi safety snagging on something to cause that hammer to fall. Nonetheless, the mere fact that you're concerned may be suggesting you that a different firearm would be a better choice for you?

I still keep a full-size 1911, but swapped my Kimber Ultra on a Sig P220 carry elite. It's a bit longer and heavier, but it's a DA and isn't plagued by the spring issues I was having with the Ultra. While I was never uncomfortable safety-wise carrying the Kimber, I don't even think twice about the safety when I'm carrying the Sig.

i would agree, first thing you learn when handling a gun, check to make sure it is unloaded, 2nd thing you learned never put your finger on the trigger unless you want to fire.
Like someone said in my glock thread, unless there is a issue with the gun IE mechanical failure the gun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, I would be less worried about any safety going off even a ambi one. the only one I have concern with it the glock, as it is made to be pulled as you fire, so anything can push the safety and fire. Where with ambi or 1911 it takes two things, something to push the safety(1911) or un click it(ambi type) and something to push the trigger in, where on a glock the one thing can do both. This is why I own a glock over a 99.00 special, I want to know my gun will fire when I tell it to and not fire when it ant done by me (a human error is not the guns fault) guns do not shoot people, people pull the trigger without realizing it or let a holster or object do it for them.

plus when you think about it, you still have the beavertail safety....so even if your safety gets swiped off you still have to be pressing in the beavertail while pulling the trigger

Glocks have three safeties.
Trigger safety that prevents the trigger from being pulled from side pressure on the trigger.

Firing pin block safety prevents the firing pin from moving forward until the trigger is pulled to the rear.

Drop safety that can only disengage when the trigger is pulled.


Though I'm not a ambi safety guy, with the Kimber even if the thumb safety were to be disengaged there are two other safeties still in play. One manually operated and the other internal and automatically operated. The grip safety must be depressed. This will automatically disengage the firing pin block safety (all Kimbers with the "II" designation). So, even if the hammer were to fall somehow with out depressing the grip safety you still have the firing pin block safety.

I carry Glocks and won't buy a defensive gun with a manual safety because that is one more thing I have to do in a defensive situtation and one more potential problem. I carry with one in the chamber because if I have to use it, more then likely I won't have time to chamber a round. If you are not comfortable yet with one in the chamber, carry your gun for a week or more without one and see if your worries are founded. If you need your gun for defense, you may not have time or both hands to chamber around.

Actually my primary carry gun is an SP101. But like most people I am a lot more accurate with the SA 1911. My thinking is that it is better to become educated and proficeint with the 1911 rather than leaving it at home out of fear and ignorance.

I had forgotten about the grip safety. Plus my holsters cover the triggers. So even if the ambi does get accidentally put off safe there is still another safety and a trigger that need to be pulled before the gun will go off.

Thanks for the thoughts guys. When open carrying, I am going to start carrying in condition 1.

My coach used to tell us to "focus on the threat." Everything you do from the point the decision is made to draw to the firing pin striking the primer has to flow smoothly and confidently. Every action deliberately executed and at speed.

He didn't recommend the slide safety at all, particularly on handguns with redundant safety features like the 1911. One more action that must be performed before the weapon will fire. That didn't sit well with most of us, but I absolutely understood his point once we started drawing and firing at speed. There isn't time to think about the thumb break that seemed to make so much sense at the store, whether there's one up the pipe, whether the safety's on or not, where the hammer is, where that target went, ....

Study what makes your 1911 tick, or NOT tick in this case. Try to make the hammer fall without pulling the trigger or depressing the grip safety. I'll bet you can't. If your finger is in a position to pull the trigger and the web of your hand in a position to disengage the grip safety, I'll bet you'll find that you're pretty much in control of that 1911 and where it's pointed. Get up close and personal with that weapon.

A good suggestion for any gun owner. Thanks!

robert i know youre feelings exactly, i think we talked about this in another thread and i went so far as to carry my full sized 1911 for a couple days ****ed and locked (unloaded) as an experiment, and i never had an accident. I have a nice rotation of carry guns but id like to add a small 1911 either in 9mm or 45 one day. If i do ill carry it condition 1. I occasionally carry a glock but if i had one i carried every day i think id add one of the aftermarket safeties to it that you push out with ur trigger finger, its right there and it woudlnt take any time. To me the built in trigger safety is too easily disengaged.

Homer: so was your instructor recommending just relying on the grip safety and leaving the slide safety off?

You guys seriously worry way too much about safeties on a hand gun. Aside from a 1911 (one of the very few handguns with a manual safety that is naturally disengaged with the thumb with out having to think about its operation) I wouldn't have a carry weapon with a manually operated safety.

KEEP YOUR FRIGGIN FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER AND YOUR GUN ISN'T GOING TO FIRE ON ITS OWN! IF YOU CAN'T DO THIS THEN YOU SHOULDN'T BE CARRYING A FIREARM AT ALL!

That was the point he made to me after many drills with and without the slide safety engaged. He reinforced that by demonstrations with an unloaded 1911.

With your unloaded 1911, try the following:

1. Bring the hammer back and without touching the grip safety, pull the trigger as hard as you can and make the hammer fall. This simulates something snagging on or depressing the trigger.

2. Again with the hammer back, the grip safety depressed this time and your thumb on the hammer, pull the trigger just enough to release it and gently follow the hammer forward with your thumb after letting off the trigger. Your hammer will more than likely stop at a half-**** position.

In order for your 1911 to fire, two things must happen: you must depress the grip safety, and the trigger must remain depressed until the primer is struck. If the grip safety is engaged again or you let off pressure on the trigger while the hammer is falling, the hammer will be blocked mid-travel. I can't tell you how important it is to experiment on your own with your unloaded 1911. Think of any manner of "accidents" that might cause that hammer to fall, something snagged, a fall, etc., and then in very slow motion attempt to replicate how the firearm will react.

I've also done this with my exposed-hammer DA and SA autos and revolvers, as well as a Winchester 94 in order to become familiar with each of their safety features Not a single one of my Beretta, Ruger, S&W, Winchester or Sig hammers will fall and contact the firing pin UNLESS the trigger is pulled at the same time. Not only would the hammer have to snag on something or be struck by something, but the trigger would have to snag at the same time and be pulled fully to the rear.

I also have a Ruger MkII. No exposed hammer, none of the above apply. I carry it with the safety engaged.

Most modern handgun safeties today involve something getting between the hammer and the firing pin. You may not even be aware of some of these redundant safeties. Think about how many hunting rifles and shotgun safeties that do nothing more than prevent the trigger from being pulled accidentally? But how many times have you carried them to the field and never given it a second thought?

I much prefer hunting and shooting when I know that the people around me focus far, far more on muzzle awareness (where that weapon's muzzle is pointed) than whether a safety is engaged. An accident or malfunction is always possible.

Get some formal training though. The money you spend to improve not only your "carry confidence" and draw -- but more importantly your judgements of and reactions to situations -- will be far less than the legal fees and inconvenience you'll endure mounting a defense in court.

All Hollywood aside, there's a lot of truth to the idea that one's finger is the only safety one needs. Quite true, BB.

i can only speak for myself, but im not worried about accidentally shooting someone else, im worried about accidentally shooting me. Got a gun tucked in the small of your back, youre getting in and out of cars, you sitting down and getting back up out of chairs, youre scooting past someone or something and your back is hitting the wall or a door......its something else, not my finger, that worries me about a possible discharge.

With the proper holster that is properly designed for how you carry the firearm it is a non issue.

yes i realise this, but sometimes regardless of doing all the right things and having all the proper gear, things happen that are you dont plan on. We call these things "accidents". These "accidents" can occur out of nowhere, and some people like to try and cover every possible angle, to keep these things called "accidents" to a minimum. Somehow you took it that we people who are trying to limit our accidents are incompetent and should keep our fingers off the triggers or not own guns. Thats not the case

That's not what I thought or meant at all. What I am trying to get across to you guys is that if you carry the gun in a proper holster designed for the gun and keep your finger off the trigger the chances of an accidental discharge are so miniscule it isn't worth worrying about...... regardless of the gun brushing up against objects, sitting on it, jumping around, running a marathon, mountain biking, or what ever your doing.

You're thousands of times more likely to kill yourself driving to work than shooting yourself in the leg because you bumped your firearm in the holster.

For a long time while I was in the Army, we called them "accidental discharges." However, within months of being in iraq, and with young and old Soldiers now carrying live ammunition around with them, the investigations into "accidental" firearms deaths were found to contain a common component - "negligence".

In fact, I don't remember a single case where a weapon accidentally discharged, every case involved someone's trigger finger being where it wasn't supposed to be.

I don't mean to be harsh, but the most important part of a firearm's function resides between our ears. You're obviously concerned about accidents. My advice to you is NOT to carry until you're more confident in your equipment - to the point that you aren't so concerned about accidents and instead can focus on the threat and making the correct judgement.

I'm not saying you shouldn't own guns. I AM suggesting that you may not be ready YET to carry for defensive purposes.

I guess I am the odd man out?
I simply can not see a valid reason for a person to ever carry a pistol with a round in the chamber???

It takes too long to chamber a round - in a genuine life or death situation it really does.

i can see your point, but i think you are comparing apples and oranges here....that being soliders walking around in an armed situation, and civilians carrying concealed.

As far as accidental discharges, what about the recent deal with the remington bolt actions going off? We arent really talking about a gun just going off, or at least i wasnt. My point is you are walking around with a loaded weapon on your person and the possibility of something unforseen activating it and discharging it. If you read my other posts, you see that i do adovcate carrying a weapon in condition one with a round in the chamber, i was just agreeing with robert that initially this made me feel uneasy with the 1911 until i tried it out for myself.

Actually im quite comfortable with my weapons and carrying them, ive been thru all the ccw training and have been carrying for the better part of 15 years and shooting for 30. Ive never had an accidental discharge, and ive only had to pull my weapon on one occasion. Am i some kind of expert, no. I guess its up to each individual to decide but i submit that being overcautious about a firearm would be better than not.

ok my mistake, i misunderstood.

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that a Soldier walking around with a weapon at condition one is somehow different than a civilian walking around with a weapon at condition one? If that's what you're saying, then I beg to differ.

"We aren't really talking about a gun just going off", were talking about the "possibility of something unforeseen activating it and discharging it." You lost me. Are you suggesting that a gun doesn't just go off by itself, but something unforeseen could cause it to just go off by itself? What do you mean by "unforeseen"? "I didn't intend to pull the trigger"?

That's just a little bit scary. I've carried M700s for 33 years. None of them have ever discharged without some kind of human intervention. I'm sad that family lost their little boy, but unless Mom was wanting to shoot their horsetrailer (was it?) she was violating a very simple rule: "Never point a firearm at something you don't want to kill"

No, I don't place a lot of stock in the news show's expose'.

In the sporting roles most of us carry firearms in, I would agree.

However, having had the intense and haunting occasion to employ small arms at close range in a defensive role, there tend to be only two kinds of people left at the end of the engagement - the quick, and the dead. If you can be overcautious without becoming hesitant, maybe you'll be counted among the former?

im not trying to get into a peeing contest over the internet, people who do usually end up looking like an idiot. I think where this convo has gone sideways is, im basically talking about modes of carry and the possibility of a gun going off accidentally while carrying...for example, youre carrying sob and youre getting into your car and a seatbelt of something snags ur gun. I dont know how Plaxico Burress shot himself in that nightclub, but clearly something went wrong with his mode of carry.

Thats where my talk over being overcautious was going, just making sure i have a secured weapon on me, etc. Im not talking about being overcautious in the sense of, do i pull my weapon or dont i. If ive determined theres a threat and i cant talk or walk my way out of it....then yes by all means fastest gun wins and theres no time to hesitate.

If the only way you feel comfortable carrying is to have your equipment fully safed, then by all means do that. I'm certainly not going to stop you.

If you're looking to a professional athlete who carried an unlicensed firearm illegally into a New York nightclub, while drinking, only to have it slip down his pants leg and go off when he fumbled trying to catch it as a reason for you to be concerned about modes of carry -- then good luck.

I can't spend any more time on this thread. This conversation hasn't gone sideways, we simply aren't going to reach an agreement here. I'm going to keep my finger away from the trigger as I have for over 20 years and not worry about mode of carry. You can worry about mode of carry all you want.

works for me

oddly when I went to one in the chamber a few days ago I forgot about it, I gave thought when inserting it in the holster, and when removing it or going in for the night I would clear the chamber, my house is big enough if you came in the door I would know but still have time to rack the slide. Besides 90% of robberies and if you knew me you would avoid my room

I haven't read the rest of the responses to this thread, but I thought I might offer my answer to the original question...

For ambidexterous safeties in concealed carry, I would recommend an extended holster, so the safety is protected on both sides of the pistol. For polymer holsters, you're mostly out of luck, but custom leather holsters can be made to properly guard an ambidexterous safety. A proper saddler could even likely extend your OLD leather holster, if you so choose. Personally, I'd just buy a new holster.

It doesn't matter how big your house is, don't take for granted that you'd know that someone was in your house. Breaking glass is much quieter than hollywood movies or the ADT commercials would let you believe, and to be honest, most windows aren't THAT hard to pry open (remember, lock or no lock, it's still just aluminum framing). People rely on dogs and/or alarm systems way too much. If someone wants in, they'll get in, and if they don't want you to know about it, then you won't.

My point is, never count on knowing your "about to be in danger". If there's an attacker in my living room, I'm not in danger. But if I forget to lock the front door while I'm in the shower and someone surprises me in my bedroom, things will get hairy. If someone hollers at me from across a parking lot, I'm not in danger, but what happens when the sliding door of the van parked next to my car opens suddenly behind me as I'm loading groceries in the back seat? I'm in no danger if I'm walking down the sidewalk across the street from some thugs at night, but what happens when an attacker steps out right in front of me as I walk past an alleyway? What happens when an attacker comes out of a stall in the men's room behind me while I'm standing at a urinal?

I started actively practicing different scenarios about 10yrs ago to help my own peace of mind. If I'm going to carry a gun, or even just keep one on the nightstand, I want to know I'll be able to use it. Having your own gun turned on you leaves you worse off than if you had been unarmed.

Following a CCW range day, I challenged the instructor (a state patrolman of over 20yrs, a firearms and CQB trainer for several years, and a close personal friend) that within 10ft, he couldn't clip me with an airsoft pistol before I disarmed him. He's 6'3" and 255-265, and I'm 5'9" and 185lbs, but from 10ft with a shot timer to signal the start, even with his training and experience and DRAWING FROM HIS DUTY HOLSTER, he couldn't land the shot before I made contact and deflected his muzzle.

One of the drills that my fiancee and I regularly practice is the "waking up to a figure over the bed". When we first started running this drill, we learned a LOT about what would likely REALLY transpire in that situation.

Consider everything that has to happen in that situation: I need to wake up, recognize and process the danger, move to reach for my weapon, draw the weapon, ready the weapon, move back to engage the target, re-aquire the target, and fire. If "ready the weapon", includes insert magazine and rack the slide, this might be a 2-3sec sequence.

The intruder only has to close the gap and gain physical control of my arm to deflect the muzzle to prevet me from landing a shot. This is a 1-2 sec sequence.

After the first few drills, by trial and error, we found out the best solution is to dive for the floor. Staying on the bed makes it too easy to pin you down. Diving for the floor and drawing the weapon makes it a unidirectional move, instead of roll left, draw, roll right. It also makes the intruder have to work harder to close the gap.

In other situations, not surprisingly, sometimes it is MUCH more effective to spend time moving your body to escape and generate distance before drawing your weapon. Drawing your weapon within arms reach of an attacker leaves too much risk. In the second it takes you to draw your weapon, you could create enough distance to make the draw MUCH more safe, which increases your odds to successfully defend yourself.

For my carry preference, I want a double action or striker fired weapon without a manual safety, with one in the tube, and a friction lock holster that covers the trigger guard properly, with the pistol stuck either in the back or front of my jeans.

Compare the sequence of actions that have to happen between "oh $hit" and "bang" if you carried a 1911 with the hammer down on an empty chamber and a snapped hammer thong over the top of the pistol, in a shoulder holster under a partially zipped coat to carrying a glock with one in the pipe tucked in the front of your jeans.

Once I recognize danger, I have to move my arms together, one opening my jacket and holding the holster, the other reach into my jacket to unsnap the holster and draw the weapon, then move both arms together to rack the slide, then engage the target.

For the glock in the front of my jeans, I move ONE ARM, draw the pistol, and move ONE ARM to engage the target.

The "21ft" rule has been widely used for decades. The principle being that inside of 21ft, an attacker with a slicing weapon (knife, sword, hatchet, shiv, etc) has BETTER odds than a defender with a gun. The idea being that inside of 21ft, it is more likely that the attacker can close the gap and make a lethal attack FASTER than the gun-toting defender can land the shots required to debilitate the attacker.

Moral of the story...

Simple rules for concealed carry...

Rule number 1: LESS IS MORE
Rule number 2: Easy functioning, reliable pistol
Rule number 3: Easily accessible holster
Rule number 4: Practice, Practice, Practice.