Well, your full of it because we have all proved you are. You said I said for example that all BARs are submoa. I challenge you to show me where I said that. I either said it and am wrong about you, or your a full of crap liar. Liars are horrible people that have agendas.

Your full of it when you say, "friends or family", but do not own or extensively test out said "product".

I mean could you imagine John Barsness, writing in handloader, that he read on the internet, or heard from frieinds about a particular product? He would lose all his creditibility.

From what you have posted, the majority of your experience is "hear say". There is a reason why hear say can raise an objection in the court of law. This type of orange army gas station k owledge is not accepted well here.

Lots of submoa shooters can be found like you the internet. What cracks me up is you do not understand why littlerly no-one takes you serious on here.

With all these friends, can you name one person on here that knows you personally and maybe knows your riflery knowledge?

I know for me, I don't have a ton of friends like you claim, but personally know 10-12 people on this forum, many I actually hunt with. One, I am on a bow league with. Two, I graduated college with. One is my brother. I mean if all these friends you claim, you would think at least one could vouch for you.

Most of what you claim I'm full of it on, I've actually owned.

I've actually owned a Leupold VX-I and had plenty of experience with it as well as several other similar priced scopes to compare it to. I've actually owned a second VX-I that was broken when I bought it. I got it fixed from Leupold, compared the glass to the first one and saw it was no better. I sold this one without ever mounting it, but I did experience the glass in it and see it was still not up to par with other scopes in that price range. I also got to see first hand how it went from working great and being on a friends gun that shot great group one day, to not even being on target the next. I got to see him try to dial it back in only to see it move every shot. He was so fed up to me he sold it to me cheap. I've also owned a Leupold Vari-X II which I also felt the same about the glass. However, I never mounted this one either so I can't comment on how it functioned. The guy I sold it to says it works great, but that doesn't make up for the fact that the glass is still sub par compared to other scopes in it's price range. Not sure how much more you want me to test it other than testing out the glass in daylight as well as low light. Testing out the tracking, and repeatability on it. Doing a drop test, and seeing how long they hold up in the field. What further testing would you like me to perform?

The Browning BAR, I've not gotten it to shoot any better than 1.5" groups and often times 2" groups with ammo it likes. I've shot it, I've had others that are better shots than me shoot it, and I've tried a ton of ammo along with many suggestions I read online. Only to have it shoot exactly the same for all of us. It's a great deer gun, and is a great quality rifle, however, good accuracy for target shooting it doesn't have.

Those are basically the products you claim I bash, and I've had experience owning and using all of them. I have friends that also own the same products, and theirs are no better. It's not like I'm just going off of how theirs performs. It's when the product I own doesn't perform, so I compare it to a friends to see if the one I got was maybe a lemon. Then seeing that theirs is no better leads me to the conclusion that it's probably how the majority of them. I don't see how owning them and experiencing the problems first hand, as well as seeing others experience the problems makes me inexperienced in it.

Can you honestly say that the VX-I scope are better than others in that price range? If so what makes them better?

Maybe you didn't say they all were sub moa, but you did say that all you owned shot better than 1.5" groups. So what kind of groups do you get from yours?

your answer!!!
IMHO!!
just find a decent used BAR in either 270 or the 308! preferably from private party so they can tell you what ammo it likes! im sure you will be happy with it! i love mine! it likes cheap ammo!and it kills em as dead as dead gets!
like i said b4, ive gotten tighter groups [cloverleafs] with mine, but it likes a cool, clean barrel! brought it to the range just to see if it was still on after stilling for a yr and you can see the second group spead out cuz i rushed it and didnt let it cool!
when hunting ive never had to take the 2nd shot! so, no worries:happy0001:
good luck! hope my post helps!

umm.....dont anyone else here go to the range?
show your advice!!

Also let me ask. Big Country, when you get a product that doesn't perform well do you go out and buy 5 more of them to compare to make sure it's not just a lemon? Or do you read reviews online, or talk to friends that own the same product and ask to compare theirs to yours, or ask their experiences?

So, you have owned a vortex? I see you comment quite a bit on that?

Who cares about your little VX1. It was one scope. Move on. You comment on VXIII's and Mark4's and have yet to own any. Simple, rule, if you don't own it, don't comment on it. Simple.

Exactly, its a 30 year old technology scope that ran its course. Treat it as such.

Because you haven't. Sure read about it, but thats about it.

Nobody said it was a target shooter. But you continue to show how much full of it you are saying, I and others say they all are subMOA shooters. Real simple, quit being a piece of crap liar. Simple

Who cares about VX-I scopes???? They are junk, and I don't own any scope in the 100-150 dollar range.

I have yet to see too many guns I couldn't get to shoot well. Maybe when I was a newbie reloader. I have tweeked my COL and get avg. of 1MOA. Minimal effort really.

Not saying they all would be that easy. But you go on here and make statements like "they are all inaccurate". Or 98% of the people you talk too tell you how bad they are.

So you basically just admitted that you know nothing about the VX-I scopes, yet when I post my experiences with them, you come out saying I'm full of it for bashing Leupold. While I don't own any VX-III's, I've used them and I've compared the glass to others. They are decent scopes, but you can get better glass for the money from other scope companies. With the Mark 4's, you can step up into Nightforces for not much more, and they are tons better scopes. It's not that the Mark 4's are bad, it's just that why would you spend that much on one when for a little extra you could get a scope that was a ton better.

Go ahead and post up your targets of your 1" groups. I'd like to see them. The above target doesn't look like 1" groups to me. I could be wrong, but it looks more like my groups do when I shoot 1.5"-1.75" groups.

I will not waste much of my time on this, but since you have asked you must either truly want to know - or are looking for some excuse to write yet another self serving and verbose post.

1. Trashing another hunter's equipment is offensive. You do this with tiresome regularity.
2. I do not think that you have much actual experience or expertise (not just something you read on another internet forum). Perhaps you have both, but I doubt it. If so, your style of communication must be the thing that is causing substantial doubts.

It might be best to stop the trashing, and participate in a more positive manner.

I make an educated decision. I find the problem. Many ways to do this.

I am fortunate enough to know a good gunsmith, I live close too. Its nice having spare scopes around that you can trust. Simple stuff first, good crowns, even pressure on lugs, borescoping. There is always a reason why a gun is a lemon. Just find out why.

Don't have to spend days on the internet getting equal crummy opinions from folks who did the same thing you did feeding off "friends experience".

Well, I'm not going to recommend something that's got a well known design flaw to a poster on this forum asking for recommendations just because another member owns it and might get offended. Just like I wouldn't want other members to come on here and recommend crap to me just because they are afraid if they tell me that's it's crap they might offend another poster.

As for the BAR I should also point out that I've shot 1" groups with mine and even under 1" groups, but it won't do it on a regular basis. However, if you fire enough groups you are bound to get one that's small.

So what would posting up 1" targets do for you? I am really not the one here that needs to defend my opinion. Just saying.

Do you understand what working up a load is? I couldn't imagine taking pictures of every target I shoot. Only reason I took the picture of the one I did for you was, you asked.

Since then, you have proved yourself a real hoser.

I do understand what working a load up is, and if you tinker with it enough maybe you can find a load that will shoot 1" groups. That being said the majority of guys asking about these guns don't reload and don't plan to. So instead of telling them these guns shoot 1" moa have them be disappointed when they realize that's not with factory ammo, maybe you should just tell them the truth and that 1.5"-2" is about what they normally shoot with most factory ammo. If you tell them they normally shoot 2" groups like I do or Browning does, and they get lucky and for some reason get one that shoots better they are thrilled. If they don't get one that shoots any better than that which is most likely going to be the case they knew what they were getting, so they didn't buy it expecting 1" groups.

The BAR's are great guns. They have beautiful wood and bluing, they are plenty accurate to kill deer, they are super reliable, they just are great guns, but the accuracy of them is not great and I'm not going to mislead someone asking about them into thinking it is.

BTW looking back and finding the thread you posted with pictures of the targets, doesn't look like yours shoots so well either.
These are no where close to the 1" groups you claim. With the exception of the one group that appears right over 1" the rest are closer to 2".

It is past time to stop the B.S. and end this thread.

Have you ever heard of working up a load genius. Really, are you that dumb? First time out with this gun, just a shot in the dark with powders and bullets. Are you really stupid enough to think that a reloader just stops there?

Guys like you are not worth the time. Seriously

I don't know, I wouldn't buy factory ammo. All I can post is what I can or cannot do.

I tell them, this is with so and so load and this is with so and so COL. I couldn't tell you what any of my guns do with factory ammos besides a 22LR.

Although I am unsure as to what minute of angle (all) 7400's or 7600's are capable of producing. I have shot some that shoot 3" groups and ones that shoot 1.5" Either way I have yet to find one that shoots like a good bolt action rifle does. But seeing that the original poster was Inquiring ONLY about a good semi auto OR pump, I dont see why there is an argument at all about a semi auto shooting MOA groups. All he asked for was advice about a good semi auto or pump rifle, and from the looks of Larry Benoit's walls and not to metion his son's success the Remington 760's have laid down their fair share of venison for them. I am sure you have heard of that family, and their favorite rifles just happen to be the 760 pump. And based on their method of hunting style, not only are those rifles accurate enough for deer hunting, but apparently they have time and time again proven to be accurate enough to kill running deer. As that is how most of the Benoits end up shooting their deer. The Bar, the 7600, and 7400 might not be minute of angle guns, but they have proven by many to kill deer from year to year. And if I remember correctly, thats all the original poster inquired about. " a good deer hunting rifle, either semi auto or pump." He never said he was going to be competing out west in a 600 meter shootout.

You do realize that when you started beating on the 740/742 you were beating on rifles that aren't even manufactured anymore, don't you?

Sconyhunter stated that they had experience with a 742 and you jumped all over them about the design defects.

Have you ever owned or even shot a 740/742? Just curious.

I've owned both the 742 and BAR and loved both. I like the pointing characteristics of the 742 over the BAR, but love the BAR's accuracy over the 742. I have some basis from first hand experience.

I am seeing what Bigcountry, Big Uncle, and others are saying. Thanks guys, this thread has been informative.

I've posted several times in this thread already that I've never owned a 740 or 742. However, I've read plenty about their design flaw. I wasn't saying don't buy one, or don't use one, I was saying if you do buy one check the rails out to make sure they aren't chewed up. If they are chewed up you will have a gun that jams all the time.

No, this is what you said.

Yes, and I would stay away from them. However, you insist that they are fine, so I told him that if he does decide he wants one to just make sure he checks out the rails. We've covered this several times in this thread already. Go on a gun forum and ask what the opinions of these guns are. Let me know back the answers you get. When they work they may be great guns, but they do have a design flaw which the 7400's fix.

Just to prove my point, a very quick Google search brought up these threads on the 742's.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=83506

http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch.../t-399119.html

http://ingunowners.com/forums/long_g...r_30-06_a.html

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...42-Woodsmaster

I could go on and on with threads on various gun forums of guys having these problems. Sorry, but I just had to point it out.

So, your source of information is other people on the internet? Do you know any of these personally? Are any of these people posting this information on these forums happen to be you?

Again, it sounds like you have no experience beyond the internet with the 740/742, i.e. no first hand experience to comment.

Most of us wouldn't comment about a product without first hand experience, but whatever floats your boat.

Why would I buy one when so many people have bad experiences? Several gun stores won't even take them on trade in due to these problems. I'm sure as hell not going to buy one so that it can break on me. You seem to not want to believe the facts. Since you don't believe me why don't you call around to your local gun smiths or gun stores even and ask them how the reliability of a 742 is? Let us know what they say.

If it was just one post I'd read online I might would chalk it off as a bad one or someone not knowing what they are doing. However, it's a ton of posts about this problem on just about every gun site I go to. I don't think there would be so many people complaining of this issue if it wasn't really a problem. Not to mention I've talked to several people in person that haven't been on the internet that have had these experiences with the 742's. Some of these are guys who don't even have computers, so I know they didn't read it on the internet.

So many people? I saw some comments from people that claimed to have bad experiences and some by people just making general comments like yours without qualifiers as to whether they used them or not. Again, would these people admit whether they maintained them correctly or not on an internet forum?

Why would I call a gun store and ask someone that may or may not have even used one what their opinion is? Why would I call a gun smith that may or may not have worked on one what their opinion is?

Again, I have one, have fired several, and have several owners in my family and hunting group to actually compare first hand. You can believe what you want based on internet information. I will continue to use my 742 to kill deer.

I will believe what I want, and you believe what you want. I just hope someone like the op looking for a semi auto rifle, doesn't get suckered into one based on someone like you recommending one, but I guess it's nothing I can do to change that.

You know I had my 7400 for almost 2 decades. I would listen to people tell me how bad they were. Even on here. But It kept chuggin. I would worry about reports on the internet using slow powders, but year after year, it kept shooting. Killed countless number of deer. I always kept worrying about the jamming and the rails. I would check them to make sure they wasn't bent or trashed.

The internet has its uses, but most of the time, it just gets people in an uproar.

I am guilty of it more than anyone. Right now, I own a 2010 tundra. There is all this talk about AIP (induction pump) going bad and it costs 3K and not covered. Part of me says don't worry. I have a 99 roadking, and I got myself in a tizzy over the cam bearing falling apart. All these stories on the internet. 45K miles and I worried to death about nothing. Could it happen? You bet.

Take the internet for what its worth.