280 Remington
09-18-2010, 02:27 PM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Western Nebraska
Posts: 3,393
There is no advantage of buying a .280 Remington over buying a 270 Winchester.
The only difference between the two is that the bullet diameter of the .270 Winchester is .277 and the 280 Remington is .284
You can get both rounds with the exact same bullet construction - and the exact same bullet weights in hand loads.
The only difference between the two is that the bullet diameter of the .270 Winchester is .277 and the 280 Remington is .284
You can get both rounds with the exact same bullet construction - and the exact same bullet weights in hand loads.
This makes a helluva difference if you're elk hunting where the .270 is in the slim side to start with.....adequate maybe but with little extra margin.
Ya want a .280.....don't settle for a .270!!!!!
09-18-2010, 02:29 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Western Nebraska
Posts: 3,393
09-19-2010, 07:05 AM
#13
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ne oklahoma
Posts: 124
Ill have to agree. I love the .280, but it is somewhat a forgotten cal. with the original being named the 7mm Express led to some confusion. I had a earl model Rem semi auto in 280 and loved it. Wish I still had it.
There will always be 270 ammo availability, not so for 280, so unless you plan to reload, I would go with the 270, which guns are still being built.
There will always be 270 ammo availability, not so for 280, so unless you plan to reload, I would go with the 270, which guns are still being built.
09-19-2010, 08:32 AM
#14
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 220
I think that Tedee gets the point and Vapo doesn't.
As I said before, I will reiterate - when the 7MM Remington Express came out, two things happened. First it was not widely accepted as a good hunting round in the USA for two reasons.
The first was that we had just gotten out of a World War and people associated Metric Calibers with the enemy's that we had just fought against. Most patriotic Americans didn't want anything to do with those Metric Calibers or the people we had to fight to keep our freedom. So the 7MM Remington Express never sold well.
The second reason why it never did well was because we already had a .270 and a 30-06 which would both do a excellent job and both rounds were as cheap as or cheaper then the 7MM Remington Express.
Again, you have to remember that the only thing that got the good old USA out of the Great Depression was WW II.
The people who lived through the depression had to learn how to save their money for a rainy day and it didn't make much sense to them to buy something that wasn't any better then what they already had. Most people had only one shotgun and one rifle and one .22 and that was all the guns that they needed.
Firearms manufactures - in order to sell more firearms, has to have some sort of gimmick that will attract new customers, some thing that will convince the customer that this new gun is several times better then what they already have. A must own gun of some sort that will do everything from soup to nuts.
With Remington it was everything from the 25-06 to the 35 Wheelen, which were all based all the 30-06 Govt shell.
By the way either way you look at it. The 30-06 is based off the 50 BMG or the 50 BMG is based off the 30-06 Govt, because if you took a blueprint of either cartridge and enlarged or reduced it - it would be exactly the same from one to the other.
Some of our early rockets and jet aircraft was also modeled after the 50 caliber bullet because we knew that it was capable of traveling faster then the speed of sound.
So the only thing that you need to realize is that when the 7 MM Remington Express came out in 1957, bullet construction was not what it is today. Sometimes you needed a special gun for hunting big game and sometimes you needed a magnum caliber for hunting big game back then. Most peoples thoughts were that if a little bullet was good that a big bullet is even better.
I see that it has not changed much in the past 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_Remington
What you need to realize is that the 30-06 was originally designed for the 220 gr bullet. The reason why they specified such a large bullet was because in 1903 when the gun was being tested and designed, there were people still alive who fought in the war between the states - or as we like to call it, the war of northern aggression. That whole war was fought with big over sized punkin balls which didn't just penetrate human flesh, it removed whole sections of bone - which lead to so many deaths and so many people loosing arms and legs. The only thing that those old timers understood was a large projectile. Later when it was found that better accuracy could be had by reducing the size of the bullet to 150 gr, that became the industry standard.
The same could be said for the .280
If the .270 is known to have its best accuracy using a 130 gr bullet, how much larger of a bullet are you going to have to use in a .280 to get the same accuracy. Probably 140 gr..
Again, someone here is missing the point.
As the bullet gets larger - it has to go someplace, because there is a limit as to how much bullet you can have past the rim of the shell. This forces the re loader to push the bullet back further into the shell which displaces some room inside of the shell which is used to hold the powder. The .280's advantage is that the shoulder was pushed forward so it could not be chambered in either the .270 Winchester or the 30-06 govt. This gave the shell a little bit more room, which along with a different powder gave it the energy it needed, even if you wanted to shoot a 170 gr bullet out of it.
If all we had to work with was a plain old lead ball - this would be a big concern. But because of the newer style bullets which has everything from special gilding materials to special cores which helps the bullet retain its shape and energy - even after it has penetrated the carcass of the animal we are shooting, there is no reason to be loading up with a bigger bullet that isn't going to do anything except make the round less accurate.
As I said before, I will reiterate - when the 7MM Remington Express came out, two things happened. First it was not widely accepted as a good hunting round in the USA for two reasons.
The first was that we had just gotten out of a World War and people associated Metric Calibers with the enemy's that we had just fought against. Most patriotic Americans didn't want anything to do with those Metric Calibers or the people we had to fight to keep our freedom. So the 7MM Remington Express never sold well.
The second reason why it never did well was because we already had a .270 and a 30-06 which would both do a excellent job and both rounds were as cheap as or cheaper then the 7MM Remington Express.
Again, you have to remember that the only thing that got the good old USA out of the Great Depression was WW II.
The people who lived through the depression had to learn how to save their money for a rainy day and it didn't make much sense to them to buy something that wasn't any better then what they already had. Most people had only one shotgun and one rifle and one .22 and that was all the guns that they needed.
Firearms manufactures - in order to sell more firearms, has to have some sort of gimmick that will attract new customers, some thing that will convince the customer that this new gun is several times better then what they already have. A must own gun of some sort that will do everything from soup to nuts.
With Remington it was everything from the 25-06 to the 35 Wheelen, which were all based all the 30-06 Govt shell.
By the way either way you look at it. The 30-06 is based off the 50 BMG or the 50 BMG is based off the 30-06 Govt, because if you took a blueprint of either cartridge and enlarged or reduced it - it would be exactly the same from one to the other.
Some of our early rockets and jet aircraft was also modeled after the 50 caliber bullet because we knew that it was capable of traveling faster then the speed of sound.
So the only thing that you need to realize is that when the 7 MM Remington Express came out in 1957, bullet construction was not what it is today. Sometimes you needed a special gun for hunting big game and sometimes you needed a magnum caliber for hunting big game back then. Most peoples thoughts were that if a little bullet was good that a big bullet is even better.
I see that it has not changed much in the past 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_Remington
What you need to realize is that the 30-06 was originally designed for the 220 gr bullet. The reason why they specified such a large bullet was because in 1903 when the gun was being tested and designed, there were people still alive who fought in the war between the states - or as we like to call it, the war of northern aggression. That whole war was fought with big over sized punkin balls which didn't just penetrate human flesh, it removed whole sections of bone - which lead to so many deaths and so many people loosing arms and legs. The only thing that those old timers understood was a large projectile. Later when it was found that better accuracy could be had by reducing the size of the bullet to 150 gr, that became the industry standard.
The same could be said for the .280
If the .270 is known to have its best accuracy using a 130 gr bullet, how much larger of a bullet are you going to have to use in a .280 to get the same accuracy. Probably 140 gr..
Again, someone here is missing the point.
As the bullet gets larger - it has to go someplace, because there is a limit as to how much bullet you can have past the rim of the shell. This forces the re loader to push the bullet back further into the shell which displaces some room inside of the shell which is used to hold the powder. The .280's advantage is that the shoulder was pushed forward so it could not be chambered in either the .270 Winchester or the 30-06 govt. This gave the shell a little bit more room, which along with a different powder gave it the energy it needed, even if you wanted to shoot a 170 gr bullet out of it.
If all we had to work with was a plain old lead ball - this would be a big concern. But because of the newer style bullets which has everything from special gilding materials to special cores which helps the bullet retain its shape and energy - even after it has penetrated the carcass of the animal we are shooting, there is no reason to be loading up with a bigger bullet that isn't going to do anything except make the round less accurate.
Last edited by Mr. Deer Hunter; 09-19-2010 at 08:43 AM.
09-19-2010, 10:29 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Western Nebraska
Posts: 3,393
I think that Tedee gets the point and Vapo doesn't.
As I said before, I will reiterate - when the 7MM Remington Express came out, two things happened. First it was not widely accepted as a good hunting round in the USA for two reasons.
The first was that we had just gotten out of a World War and people associated Metric Calibers with the enemy's that we had just fought against. Most patriotic Americans didn't want anything to do with those Metric Calibers or the people we had to fight to keep our freedom. So the 7MM Remington Express never sold well.
The second reason why it never did well was because we already had a .270 and a 30-06 which would both do a excellent job and both rounds were as cheap as or cheaper then the 7MM Remington Express.
Again, you have to remember that the only thing that got the good old USA out of the Great Depression was WW II.
The people who lived through the depression had to learn how to save their money for a rainy day and it didn't make much sense to them to buy something that wasn't any better then what they already had. Most people had only one shotgun and one rifle and one .22 and that was all the guns that they needed.
Firearms manufactures - in order to sell more firearms, has to have some sort of gimmick that will attract new customers, some thing that will convince the customer that this new gun is several times better then what they already have. A must own gun of some sort that will do everything from soup to nuts.
With Remington it was everything from the 25-06 to the 35 Wheelen, which were all based all the 30-06 Govt shell.
By the way either way you look at it. The 30-06 is based off the 50 BMG or the 50 BMG is based off the 30-06 Govt, because if you took a blueprint of either cartridge and enlarged or reduced it - it would be exactly the same from one to the other.
Some of our early rockets and jet aircraft was also modeled after the 50 caliber bullet because we knew that it was capable of traveling faster then the speed of sound.
So the only thing that you need to realize is that when the 7 MM Remington Express came out in 1957, bullet construction was not what it is today. Sometimes you needed a special gun for hunting big game and sometimes you needed a magnum caliber for hunting big game back then. Most peoples thoughts were that if a little bullet was good that a big bullet is even better.
I see that it has not changed much in the past 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_Remington
What you need to realize is that the 30-06 was originally designed for the 220 gr bullet. The reason why they specified such a large bullet was because in 1903 when the gun was being tested and designed, there were people still alive who fought in the war between the states - or as we like to call it, the war of northern aggression. That whole war was fought with big over sized punkin balls which didn't just penetrate human flesh, it removed whole sections of bone - which lead to so many deaths and so many people loosing arms and legs. The only thing that those old timers understood was a large projectile. Later when it was found that better accuracy could be had by reducing the size of the bullet to 150 gr, that became the industry standard.
The same could be said for the .280
If the .270 is known to have its best accuracy using a 130 gr bullet, how much larger of a bullet are you going to have to use in a .280 to get the same accuracy. Probably 140 gr..
Again, someone here is missing the point.
As the bullet gets larger - it has to go someplace, because there is a limit as to how much bullet you can have past the rim of the shell. This forces the re loader to push the bullet back further into the shell which displaces some room inside of the shell which is used to hold the powder. The .280's advantage is that the shoulder was pushed forward so it could not be chambered in either the .270 Winchester or the 30-06 govt. This gave the shell a little bit more room, which along with a different powder gave it the energy it needed, even if you wanted to shoot a 170 gr bullet out of it.
If all we had to work with was a plain old lead ball - this would be a big concern. But because of the newer style bullets which has everything from special gilding materials to special cores which helps the bullet retain its shape and energy - even after it has penetrated the carcass of the animal we are shooting, there is no reason to be loading up with a bigger bullet that isn't going to do anything except make the round less accurate.
As I said before, I will reiterate - when the 7MM Remington Express came out, two things happened. First it was not widely accepted as a good hunting round in the USA for two reasons.
The first was that we had just gotten out of a World War and people associated Metric Calibers with the enemy's that we had just fought against. Most patriotic Americans didn't want anything to do with those Metric Calibers or the people we had to fight to keep our freedom. So the 7MM Remington Express never sold well.
The second reason why it never did well was because we already had a .270 and a 30-06 which would both do a excellent job and both rounds were as cheap as or cheaper then the 7MM Remington Express.
Again, you have to remember that the only thing that got the good old USA out of the Great Depression was WW II.
The people who lived through the depression had to learn how to save their money for a rainy day and it didn't make much sense to them to buy something that wasn't any better then what they already had. Most people had only one shotgun and one rifle and one .22 and that was all the guns that they needed.
Firearms manufactures - in order to sell more firearms, has to have some sort of gimmick that will attract new customers, some thing that will convince the customer that this new gun is several times better then what they already have. A must own gun of some sort that will do everything from soup to nuts.
With Remington it was everything from the 25-06 to the 35 Wheelen, which were all based all the 30-06 Govt shell.
By the way either way you look at it. The 30-06 is based off the 50 BMG or the 50 BMG is based off the 30-06 Govt, because if you took a blueprint of either cartridge and enlarged or reduced it - it would be exactly the same from one to the other.
Some of our early rockets and jet aircraft was also modeled after the 50 caliber bullet because we knew that it was capable of traveling faster then the speed of sound.
So the only thing that you need to realize is that when the 7 MM Remington Express came out in 1957, bullet construction was not what it is today. Sometimes you needed a special gun for hunting big game and sometimes you needed a magnum caliber for hunting big game back then. Most peoples thoughts were that if a little bullet was good that a big bullet is even better.
I see that it has not changed much in the past 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_Remington
What you need to realize is that the 30-06 was originally designed for the 220 gr bullet. The reason why they specified such a large bullet was because in 1903 when the gun was being tested and designed, there were people still alive who fought in the war between the states - or as we like to call it, the war of northern aggression. That whole war was fought with big over sized punkin balls which didn't just penetrate human flesh, it removed whole sections of bone - which lead to so many deaths and so many people loosing arms and legs. The only thing that those old timers understood was a large projectile. Later when it was found that better accuracy could be had by reducing the size of the bullet to 150 gr, that became the industry standard.
The same could be said for the .280
If the .270 is known to have its best accuracy using a 130 gr bullet, how much larger of a bullet are you going to have to use in a .280 to get the same accuracy. Probably 140 gr..
Again, someone here is missing the point.
As the bullet gets larger - it has to go someplace, because there is a limit as to how much bullet you can have past the rim of the shell. This forces the re loader to push the bullet back further into the shell which displaces some room inside of the shell which is used to hold the powder. The .280's advantage is that the shoulder was pushed forward so it could not be chambered in either the .270 Winchester or the 30-06 govt. This gave the shell a little bit more room, which along with a different powder gave it the energy it needed, even if you wanted to shoot a 170 gr bullet out of it.
If all we had to work with was a plain old lead ball - this would be a big concern. But because of the newer style bullets which has everything from special gilding materials to special cores which helps the bullet retain its shape and energy - even after it has penetrated the carcass of the animal we are shooting, there is no reason to be loading up with a bigger bullet that isn't going to do anything except make the round less accurate.
09-19-2010, 11:36 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: WY
Posts: 2,056
Uhhh - someone didn't check their facts here. I remember when the .280 Remington's designation changed to be "7mm Remington Express", and that certainly wasn't in 1957. Yes, the .280 came out in 1957, but the nomenclature wasn't changed to "7mm Remington Express" until 1979. My copy of Hodgdon No. 26 says:
"...In 1979, in an attempt to revive their dying cartridge (the .280), Remington changed its name to 7mm Express Remington."
Volumes could be written about Wikipedia's errors....
Now, by the late 1970s, another metric cartridge - the 7mm Remington Magnum - was very firmly extablished as a "favorite" in many AMERICAN hunters' arsenals. So, you get Maggie's Drawers for the suggestion about WWII and metric calibers in the context of and the reason for the 7mm Express's low popularity. If that were true, the 7mm Remington Magnum would have suffered the same fate.
"...In 1979, in an attempt to revive their dying cartridge (the .280), Remington changed its name to 7mm Express Remington."
Volumes could be written about Wikipedia's errors....
Now, by the late 1970s, another metric cartridge - the 7mm Remington Magnum - was very firmly extablished as a "favorite" in many AMERICAN hunters' arsenals. So, you get Maggie's Drawers for the suggestion about WWII and metric calibers in the context of and the reason for the 7mm Express's low popularity. If that were true, the 7mm Remington Magnum would have suffered the same fate.
Last edited by homers brother; 09-19-2010 at 11:45 AM.
09-19-2010, 12:50 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,085
What Homers said....
The .280 Rem was the .280 Rem until 1979..Then it was BRIEFLY stamped as the 7mm Rem Express ( because of Rem's success with the the 7mm Rem Mag).. Then it soon became the .280 Rem again..
It's a fine cartridge, and I have killed everything from woodchucks to 1500 lb. Alaska bull moose with mine, at ranges from point blank to 400 yards..
Of course, I could have done the same thing with a .270, with proper bullets..
The .280 Rem was the .280 Rem until 1979..Then it was BRIEFLY stamped as the 7mm Rem Express ( because of Rem's success with the the 7mm Rem Mag).. Then it soon became the .280 Rem again..
It's a fine cartridge, and I have killed everything from woodchucks to 1500 lb. Alaska bull moose with mine, at ranges from point blank to 400 yards..
Of course, I could have done the same thing with a .270, with proper bullets..
09-19-2010, 02:10 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,085
Mr Deer Hunter must be reading Wilkepedia incorrectly...
I looked up .280 remington...It says ( correctly) that the .280 Rem was introduced in 1957...It also says that in 1979 it was renamed the 7MM Rem Express in an effort to boost sales because of the success of the 7mm Rem mag... It also says that in 1981 it was RE-NAMED the .280 rem because thier ploy did not boost sales...
As far as the 50 BMG being based on the 30-06, I suspect that is a figment of someone's imagination...The only similarities between the two cartridges are that they are are both rimless, bottleneck cases, which could be said about perhaps a couple hundred or more cartridges.. The 30-06s similarity to the 8 x 57 and many other rounds that share the same case head dimensions is much closer...
I looked up .280 remington...It says ( correctly) that the .280 Rem was introduced in 1957...It also says that in 1979 it was renamed the 7MM Rem Express in an effort to boost sales because of the success of the 7mm Rem mag... It also says that in 1981 it was RE-NAMED the .280 rem because thier ploy did not boost sales...
As far as the 50 BMG being based on the 30-06, I suspect that is a figment of someone's imagination...The only similarities between the two cartridges are that they are are both rimless, bottleneck cases, which could be said about perhaps a couple hundred or more cartridges.. The 30-06s similarity to the 8 x 57 and many other rounds that share the same case head dimensions is much closer...
09-19-2010, 02:33 PM
#19
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 220
While you guys were reading Wikipedia - I was around when that cartridge was new,
when most of you were still pooping in your diapers, I was reading books like Shots at Whitetails and books written by Jack O'Connor - such as The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns, The Big Game Animals of North America, The Art of Hunting Big Game in North America, The Complete Book of Shooting, and The Hunting Rifle..
My dad had about every book that Readers Digest offered written by him from the early 60's on.
If you read Jacks books, you would read that he said that the .270 Winchester was about the most perfect gun ever designed and claimed that you could shoot almost anything except the most dangerous game in the world with either a .270 Winchester or a 7X57 Mauser.
Back in his day, the bullets were not the best and he might have been one of the people who was the most responsible for the bullets that you shoot today. I believe at one time he was a bullet tester for Speer.
It's funny ...Deleted by CalHunter...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG
http://campsmoke.wordpress.com/2009/...-a-generation/
http://www.africahunting.com/content...-o-connor-734/
when most of you were still pooping in your diapers, I was reading books like Shots at Whitetails and books written by Jack O'Connor - such as The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns, The Big Game Animals of North America, The Art of Hunting Big Game in North America, The Complete Book of Shooting, and The Hunting Rifle..
My dad had about every book that Readers Digest offered written by him from the early 60's on.
If you read Jacks books, you would read that he said that the .270 Winchester was about the most perfect gun ever designed and claimed that you could shoot almost anything except the most dangerous game in the world with either a .270 Winchester or a 7X57 Mauser.
Back in his day, the bullets were not the best and he might have been one of the people who was the most responsible for the bullets that you shoot today. I believe at one time he was a bullet tester for Speer.
It's funny ...Deleted by CalHunter...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG
http://campsmoke.wordpress.com/2009/...-a-generation/
http://www.africahunting.com/content...-o-connor-734/
Last edited by CalHunter; 09-20-2010 at 11:47 AM. Reason: Rules Violation
09-19-2010, 03:13 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,085
After reading your post, I'll digress on the 50 BMG 30-06 connection... You have informed me about something I was not aware of...Thank you...
However, I'll still maintain that the relationship between the 50 BMG and the 30-06 are no closer than the relationship between the 30-06 and the 8 x 57, which was developed around 1888 and was the parent case head for the 7 x 57, the 30-06 and many other cartridges that are still in use today...
As far as pulling rank on me , I was well past diapers when the .280 was introduced in 1957, and I wouldn't be surprised if I am closer to your Dad's age than your age... I am a big fan of Jack O'Connor myself, and I remember reading his monthly articles in Outdoor Life, rather than Reader's Digest...
However, I'll still maintain that the relationship between the 50 BMG and the 30-06 are no closer than the relationship between the 30-06 and the 8 x 57, which was developed around 1888 and was the parent case head for the 7 x 57, the 30-06 and many other cartridges that are still in use today...
As far as pulling rank on me , I was well past diapers when the .280 was introduced in 1957, and I wouldn't be surprised if I am closer to your Dad's age than your age... I am a big fan of Jack O'Connor myself, and I remember reading his monthly articles in Outdoor Life, rather than Reader's Digest...