Long Range Shooting
 

The other day I was thinking about somthing. The X ring on a target is one minuit of angle. This means that a 500 yard target has a 5" X ring. At a Rifle match, if you want to win you better hope all your shots are in the X ring. Now a deer has about an 18" vital area, maby alittle smaller. Now I am not picking on any one out there. Putting a bullet in a deers vital area at 500 yards does not qualify as expert shooting. I am not saying it is easy to shoot deer at these ranges, quite the oppisite, and unsucessful shots are judged not by lack of crome trophies but by crippled and lost game. With this long range stuff there are some inherant problems. Unless the deer goes right down or you have snow on the ground what are the chances of finding where the deer was and picking up a blood trail?
If you are shooting a 7mm Ultes and you miss judge the wind by about 2 MPH you just paunched or missed. Miss judge the distance, miss or blowen off leg ,maby a hit on the fringes. We also have to think about how far the deer can move during the bullets time of flight.
I shoot thousands of round a year from all types and calibers of rifles and I really do not think I or for that matter any body else has any business taking these long shots. I believe 300 yards with a modern flat shooting rifle is the limit, and even at that distance only if you practice shooting that distance alot.
This 500+yard stuff, I do not know what it is hunting is getting close and personal, kind of like bow hunting. It certanly is not target shooting as a good target shooter would never pick so large a target. Most of all I wonder how many animals are wounded and never found with this long range stuff. It does not impress me, what impresses me is the hunter that shows me the deer with powder burns on its coat.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

I feel the same way way about it. I talked to some of the guys one the long range hunting page, and I don' t have any problems with what they do. I have never tried what they do so who am I to judge. And they claim to be successful. And if so, I say go for it. But I struggle with the wind.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Since most deer only measure 18" or less from the top of the back to the bottom of the belly in the lung area the vital zone is far less than 18" .In reality you should be able to place your bullet into a target area about half that size in order to make quick clean kills.I limit myself to taking shots at game only at ranges that I practise on a regular basis and only then if a solid rest is available and the wind is weak or in a direction that will have little effect on the bullet path.I also use a laser rangefinder to verify the actual distance as it is easy to misjudge.With that being said I regularly take deer and other game at ranges out to 300 yards and will under the right conditions shoot out 400 and in perfect conditions out to 500 yards.Many people are quick to criticize a person that takes long range shots but the irony is that most( but certainly not all) of those criticizing seldom practise and are poor shooters themselves.Many of them shoot larger groups at 200 yards than I and several others at the local club do at 500 yards yet they judge all others by their own limitations.If everyone adopted the practise of never shooting at an animal under any conditions or ranges that they don' t regularly practise at the range there would be far less missed or wounded animals.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

I would have to agree. I shoot high power and the 10 ring is a little over 2moa- we shoot our standing position at 200 yards. On a good day I can score in the high 90' s usually 97-98 from this position, on a bad day I' ll shoot shot somewhere in the high 80' s to low 90' s. This means I' m hitting a target about 1/3 the size of a deers vitals 8 0r 9 shots out of 10. I can shoot better standing with iron sights than most people in the woods can shoot from a benchrest using a scoped sporting rifle. With that said, I wouldn' t take a standing shot on a deer at that range- too much adrenalin, not enough time to make the shot, and not worth risking the shot.

If I were able to shoot prone or from some sort of solid rest with a properly sighted rifle, I wouldn' t have too many qualms about taking shots out to 400-500 yards provided that the deer wasn' t moving and there wasn' t any wind.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

So far I see that in general you guys, girls, agree with me. I run into many people who do not though. I guess for them a wounded deer is a consilation prize. I shoot 200 yards and thus limit my self to 300 or under. Shooting a deer or any other big game animal at even these extended ranges is not what I consider hunting. No offence intended!!!! That is just shooting, I can not help but keep in mind that all of these animals were shot for food with flint locks at very close range. I hate to compair my hunting skills to those of way back, I do not even think I compaire. That was hunting and that is what it is all about!!!!!!!
Thanks for your imput, this sight is great!!!!!!!

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Actually only one of the three replies agreed with you.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

I' ll disagree.

I shoot long ranges very often, I have a 1200yrd private range, use every inch of it from time to time, and have harvested game at half that range, 632yrd coyote, and a 491yrd whitetail have been my maximums thus far, some people can successfully hunt at long ranges, MOST people NEVER SHOULD!!

An 18" vital area, like you mentioned, is being very gracious, it might be that long, but not that tall, 8-12" being the usual height of the heart and lungs within the body, a full 12" is stretching it even quite a bit...I usually call them 8" --->8" diameter disc at 500yrds=2.0MOA, quite a feat at that distance with a sporting rifle. If you want to hunt with a target rifle, I might just let you, as it would be more punishment than pleasure or advantage, they' re God awful heavy! I now own two ' targets only rifles' :D[8D], and a few others that probably would do me well in competitions that have hunting denominations in their names, and have handled who knows how many in the past, and comparing them to a hunting rifle is like comparing apples to oranges, yeah, they' re both fruit, but that' s about the stint of it. Most hunting rifles would be lucky to get 2.0MOA at 100yrds, let alone maintain it at 500yrds. Most of the sporting rifles I' ve owned have taken at least $100 in work to drop below 2.0MOA at 400yrds, if they even got there. Also, shooting on a range is constant conditions, exact ranges are known, buck fever isn' t playing in (most br shooters are cooler than ice), the target isn' t moving, there aren' t trees in between you and your target, you' re sitting at a bench over a sandbag or bipod, wind is either minimal or trajectory affect is known, you' re using a 25x glass (too damn close for game-hunting, other than varmints that is), you' re not freezing your butt off or in a tree. Between having very poor conditions compared to range time, and having a rifle that won' t shoot as good of groups at 100yrds as a target rifle would at 3-400yrds, br shooting and hunting are two completely different animals. I can off-hand shoot a factory M-1Garand at 400yrds on 2MOA targets until I' m blue in the face, hit 90% or better, I know, I' ve done it, but I' ll guarantee that over 90% of hunters have never even fired a shot at a paper at 500yrds, most don' t even know what 400yrds looks like, and good they don' t, as they might try something stupid like shoot at a deer at 500yrds because they know their rifle is dead on at 100yrds, 3" low at 200yrds, and the trajectory tables say it should be 55" low at 500yrds, Thank God these idiots plumb miss most of the time.

Also, there are many cartridge/bullet combinations that make outstanding 300yrd or less deer cartridges that are simply NOT good for taking deer at longer ranges. a 400yrd kill shot with a 30-30WCF is unheard of, even if you can lob the bullet out there that far, it' s not going to be in good shape once it gets there to do the job.

No, from a BR standpoint, making a kill zone MOA shot at any range isn' t difficult, but like I said, apples and oranges, I can throw a .308win round out to 1000yrds and know what I' m hitting, I' m 98.2% hits on a 40" target with my sporterized mauser at that range, about 4MOA, and I' d shoot myself, if someone else didn' t, if I ever took a 1000yrd shot on a deer.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

i think stubblejumper and nomercy said it right.if a shooter-hunter is well practiced (this builds confidence)under all conditions then long range shooting isn' t that big a deal.most shooters don' t have access to a range of 500 yards or even 300 for that matter.but all to often these folks attempt these types of shots with out ever shooting that range.without a full understanding of how wind,temp,humidity,altitude and gravity affect bullet flight.i built my own 500 yard range and like nomercy,have shot every square inch of it under all weather conditions with different bullet wieghts,bullet- powder combo' s all with the same rifle.a rifle thats been bedded and has had a trigger job.would i take a 500 yard shot on a deer?most likly not,but if conditions were perfect(they usauly never are)i would in a heart beat.would i take a 6 or 700 yard shot?ABSOLUTY NOT!!! becouse i have never practiced at those ranges,its that simple.if a shooter-hunter knows his or her limits and has complete confidence in there and there weapons abilty to stay with in those limits,there would be far less wounded game running around the woods.

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my friend is one of them long range shooters.....he killed 2 does at 540 some yards i think....his dad watched through the range finder and swears on his like it happend.....showed me where he sat and you could see the gut pile....with a 243!!!!!!!!! both were just luck shots...both hit the spine way back....its always windy there and they always shoot far....they tell me about how they shoot them on the run at 300....and they do.....but they also pack ATLEAST 2 boxes of ammo a piece for any given day...not a season.......a day.....just for deer hunting.....these guys all line up on a hill where deer run through on a bottom and blast away.....then someone tags it.....their normal deer has well over 5 hits in the bodys of the deer.....and if they dont fall before they are out of site they all must have missed....i dont call that hunting....that wouldnt even be fun....im out there to be close to my game...be in my games bedroom waiting...i like being close to nature...my normal deer shot average would be less then 30yds.....with my rifle...that is hunting....and to me impressive being i can get that close to deer all the time fooling their strong noses ears and eyes...but......to each man his own i guess.....and there are some cases there arent woods and thickets to hunt....like out west and such places where a far shot may be needed.....but i agree you can always keep them under 300 or so....after that way to much can cause problems for you....its just not worth it.....we owe it to the game we are after.....

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Remember all " really" long range hunters worth their powder use MATCH KINGS !;)

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

It is appairent that one of you can shoot, however I would like to see that off hand stint with the M1 Grand. That is impressive and alot better then I could ever do, why not a National Match M1A? I am not picking on you just curious.
Now to the long range needle blowers. Have you ever looked at your down range energy, I doubt it. Think of the time of flight of your bullet, rumor has it a deer can run 30 miles an hour(I would like to see that) this is 44 fps. You fire and the deer moves you got a missed or wounded deer. The target shooter that was posting a while back, I will bet he can tell you time of flight, drop and remaining energy at any range he shoots and I get the idea he will not take super long shots.
I supose if you smell bad or do not know how to hunt you have to take those 500 yard shots. Either that or it is an ego problem after all we are shooting at a living animal and we want a quick and humain kill not a maby. Hunting is not target shooting. We have a responsibility to the sport of hunting and the game we hunt to be ethical. This super long range stuff is like driving a Lamborgini down the highway at 180 mph, It can be done but it is not tha actions of a reasonably, responsible person!!

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

I suppose the most intelligent thing that can be said at this point is that we all hunt in the manner we please( as long as it is within the game laws and is ethical in our own judgement) and not try to tell others how they should hunt.Our hunting conditions vary tremendously as do our shooting skills..Judging others by ones own limitations and making oneself out to be holier than thou are unfortunately human flaws that some people just can' t seem to control so we just have to learn to tolerate them.Good luck to all in their hunting whatever their methods.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

No one out there is trying to be holier then thou, it is just that some of us value a clean kill on a game animal much more then a hit on the fringe, or in the X ring of a paper target. A botched shot is not a hunting storie it is a tale of shame. I have had them as have most of us. It is somthing you live with and it haunts you if you have any compassion for what you hunt. You learn from your failures and make sure it never happen again. If we do not take this attitude, sooner then later one too many tree huggers will see a three legged deer and our hunting will end. Not only this, but next time a deer you shoot at runs off with a hole in its paunch and you can not find it think of the deer. Is the pain and suffering that animal goes through before it dies a day or two later worth it?

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Judson, I believe that is the very definition of ' holier than thou' - to be such and not even realize it. Every person who has disagreed with you on this thread so far has told you exactly how they prepare for these shots, and are not the kind of haphazard long-range shooters you think of. Try to realize that there are people who can pull those shots off, and some of them are talking to you right here.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Most if not all of the people I talk to that practice these " hunting practices" , practice more than I bet 95% of hunters. Instead of looking down so much on these people, I would be more concerned about people who take the running shots, and loses these animals I bet these guys lose alot more than these long range shooters. I see it every year people taking bad shots.

If a person on here says he hasn' t lost game, or put a bad shot on animal, then he is number one: a liar, or two:not done much huntin.

I have did both, and you know what, I learned from it, and am human. Alot of people count on hunting for food. They don' t get into this Ted Nugent spirit of the wild thing. Does it make it wrong? Absolutely not, just a different perspective that is different than others. I am lucky to have the luxery to not be so dependent on game for putting food on the table.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

The Max. Kill Zone on a deer is 12" ; you subtract + or - 2" for error; your pratical kill zone is 8" , and your Max. Point Blank Range (MPBR) is 4" . Now you set your scope so the bullet does not rise higher than 4" at any time. If it drops more than 4" you should then compensate. It is wise to use a range finder for shots over your MPBR. I have used MPBR, and it has never failed me.

For Elk MPBR is 9" but I go with 7" .

For Antelope MPBR is 3" .

If one takes the time to really really pratice using MPBR, they should have no problem at long range shots.

If you can' t make the long range shot don' t do it, but if you have the confidence in your rifle and your self go for it. Good luck.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

I agree with Judson for the most part. I have seen to many people shoot on the shiloutte range where the distance is known. You never know what the wind is doing all the way out to those extreme ranges. There is no way to practice changing winds whirl winds and air currents. There is no way to know if the deer may take a step or even lay down or turn directions. The bullet time in travel allows for to many variables. A poor hit on a target is no loss but we owe more to the game we hunt. One other question I have is why the hell take that kind of a shot? Is taking that deer at any range life or death? If conditions are real good and I know the range and the rifle, I might take a 300 yard shot. However unless a deer is already hit I don,t push the range. No deer is that important to me and I need not prove anything to anyone.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

MPBR,how many hunters know what that means or understand how to use it? you would be surprised at how many don' t.good post handloader1.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Good post James and very true. Now for running shots. If the animal is not already hit I totally agree with that other post concerning running game!! Up here we have lots of hunters with the " When in doubt empty the mag" mentality. One of the more popular rifles here is the Rem 7400 and 742. You know , for when you need those quick second and third shots. I am not alone in wishing that semi autos were not allowed in the woods. The problam with that is what get banned next? Also I know several handicaped people who use them due to their limitations but both know how to shoot, aim and shoot once.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Judson-So if an animal might suddenly run as you fire causing a miss or wound because of travel time for long range high velocity centerfire shots the same could easily happen at normal ranges for muzzleloader,shotgun and archery shots.Wind also has a much greater effect on projectiles from these weapons as well even at much shorter ranges.Would you then suggest that archers ,shotgun and muzzleloader hunters are unethical because they are risking wounding an animal?Perhaps you are in favor of banning those weapons for hunting because of the increased risk of wounding an animal.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Sounds like a ' holier than thou' attitude if I' ve ever heard one. I' m tiring of this thread (moreso of it' s originator), but I' ll bite.

First of all, I will not say that you are a poor shot, I' ve never seen you shoot, but you won' t make me believe that you' re an above average, avid shooter by claiming to shoot ' thousands of rounds a year' , that' s really not much at all, not enough to impress me at any rate; on the year I run about an average of 300-500 centerfire rounds a week at paper/steel/cardboard, more in the summer, and a bit less in the winter, as frequent fire and deer hunting don' t coincide well. (not to mention the play I have weekly with rimfire .22lrs and at least once a month my SKS' s and other semiauto carbines.)

I don' t know exactly what you' re referring to when you call someone a ' needle blower' , I' m assuming someone who runs a 22cal or 7mm or other ' small caliber' and tries it on game at long ranges, I' ve used 7mm on deer, and they are fully capable of very long range shots, 22cals are not good for more than 85yrds where legal. My long range shooting is less done with a .22-250 than with a 30cal, all of my long range big game hunting is done with a 30cal, or larger. I don' t know what size of needles you sew with, but I wouldn' t call a .30-06, .308win or .300win mag a ' needle' , let alone the .416rigby that gave me that 491yrd 187# dressed weight doe.

I' ve taken 87% of my rifle-harvested deer at under 75yrds, and only a handful at 250+, the rest being somewhere in between those, the shortest being 7ft and the longest as mentioned above at 491yrds. Based on these performances, I don' t think my smell has much to do with why I am capable of taking long range hunting. As mentioned above, I own a 1200yrd range, in my serious hunting rifles, and my target rifles, I' ve often used the entire length of it, I have data collected for every shot taken by me on that range over 400yrds, most of my rifles' files contain data for various loads for every 50yrds for the length of it (or at least out to as far as they shoot accurately enough to hit my targets, shortest being 800yrds), for my favorite load in my favorite .30-06 that includes at least 10-5shot groups at 10yrd increments for the entire length of it. I do my homework off-range as well as on-range practicing, looking at a published data card or reading a reloading manual doesn' t count as ' looking at the downrange energy' of your rifle, analyzing your own data, interpreting and correlating it does.

I will never tell a beginner to ever expect to be able to ethically shoot a deer past 250-300yrds, as a beginner never should anyway, and probably 85% of experienced hunters should never surpass this mark, if for no other reason than their equipment limitations. BUT, there is no reason that I should be limited to crawl when I am fully capable and practiced at running, I' m by far not the best shooter in the nation, probably far from it in my state, but I know where my bullet is, and I know what it is capable of out to quite long distances, so why is it unethical to take the shot? Making a close shot isn' t hard, getting close is, I' ve proven time and time again I can get close. Getting within 500yrds of a deer isn' t hard, but analyzing the conditions, and being given the right opportunity to prove that your accuracy and range practice is good for more than just ringing steel is difficult, shooting well at 500yrds on paper on a range isn' t difficult, successfully harvesting a deer at 500yrds in the bush is.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

You get your feelings hurt too easy!!! First you are the exception to the rule, if what you say is true, and I have no reason not to believe you then you prove my point. You say your longest shot was just under 500 yards on a deer. You shoot much further at targets etc and even with your experiance seem alittle hesitant to shoot much beyond that 500 mark. I will bet you know time to target and all that other stuff. I will also bet you have good equipement and have practiced with it. I will also bet that you put in more time at the range shooting then 99.99% of the people who hunt deer. Going along with this you seem to believe that many others are in your league, not true especially up here. If someone hunts they risk wounding and loosing an animal. It is up to us to do everything to minimimize that possiablity. Like I said you are the exception to the rule. I will not shoot at a deer or any other big game animal over 300 yards. Neither should 99+% of the hunters out there. By the way, are you aware of the energy that the Rigby has at that range? I am sure you are, it aint no thurty thurty is it, and alot flatter shooting then most would think. What type of rifle is it. I have to like you, your easy to get going, fun to argue with, in a friendly way and you like 7mm and the .416. By the way us still hunters all covered in cover scent don' t smell to good to people either.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

The rifles I build will shoot 1/2 moa or less but these are hunting rifles for the most part. But I have a question for those that know, really two. Which do you favor, the NM M1A or the tuned up Grand and second part is why. There are pros and cons to both.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Judson-I can' t answer your question but I will ask you to respond to my last post.I think there is a valid point to be addressed.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Quote
I am not alone in wishing that semi autos were not allowed in the woods. The problam with that is what get banned next?

why are busy bodies always worried about what another guy shoots in the woods. I could care less what you shoot, or about the accuracy of your rifles, or how much you practice, or how far you shot to get that deer, or eland. Why not worry about your own game. Worry about your own shot. What difference would it make in your world if they ban semi' s. Have you been inconvienced to the people that take multiple shots? have they robbed you of your pursuit of happiness in any way?

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Judson, if you were to ask roughly the same question another way, you would get a totally different response from the people here. If you were to pose as someone who is new to the board as ask " what kind of rifle should I buy so I can shoot deer out to 500 yards?" You would get a response about ethics, the need to practice more, and all of the uncertainties and difficulties with taking such long shots. I feel you baited people in who are better shooters than most who are skilled enough to know when such shots are appropriate or not, and now you are getting upset with the answers you are getting. You are preaching to the wrong crowd.

AS far as seing people with the semiauto syndrome- I' ve seen alot of those in the woods also. Its alot like driving- you can teach someone to shoot or drive properly, but when you leave them to their own, they might speed along at 100 mph or feel the need to empty their magazine at the first running deer they see. Both are bad behavior, one is illegal in most places, but you wouldn' t ban a semiautorifle from hunting or a car that could do 100 mph, would you?

Can' t say I could tell you the difference between a tuned Garand and M1A, but I would prefer the Garand just because its a nicer looking rifle (in my eyes at least), I' ve shot the garand many times in the past and really like it, don' t care for the cheesey looking fiberglass handguard on the M1A, though I' m always aware of trying to keep my thumb intact when loading the garand.;)
I personally shoot an as-issued Smith Corona 03-A3 in matches, its as accurate as either of the semi-autos,shoots way better than an as-issued garand, didn' t cost me much, though the rear sight leaves a bit to be desired on the elevation adjustment.[8D]

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

I think there has been some good points made by Jud and some from the long range guys.I feel hunting is a big sport with a lot of differing styles,driving,dog hunting,still hunting,stand sitting,and combinations of these.Its all hunting just done in differing styles and methods.The long range guys on this post aren' t advocating 1000-1500yd shooting like the 1000yd Williamsport benchrest guys do with 30# plus guns and benchrests sitting along the road shooting from one mountain to another but instead practice long and hard to make their guns and loads work at these above mentioned very realistic distances of up to 500yds.Thats not unreasonable for a well tuned rifle(heck we used to shoot chucks at 400 yds without sandbags or benches and just a bipod or tripod rest and a deers kill zone is about the size of a small chucks entire body or an adult with just his head sticking out of the hole!) They are just as skilled in their ways as the hunter you sneaks up and kills their deer at 20-30yds its just a different practiced and learned skill.We can all argue about who has the moral highground all day but the bottom line is to hunt legally and ethicly, be good at your chosen method,PRACTICE,and use the proper equipment for the job.

woods

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Sorry I did not mean to neglect your question it is valid. An archer should not go around shooting at deer at for example 50-75 yards, I bow hunt and limit my shots to 25 or less. A person with a smoke pole should not try the 300 yard stuff and so on, you have to accept the limitations of what you hunt with and your abilities. Nomercy stated he would never shoot at a deer at 1,000 yards, and from what he said he is a far more experianced shooter then most out there.
Really this hole debate is not about long range shooting it is about hunting ethics and weather a deer means more to those who push the limits then just being a mere target. I do not care what you hunt with if making the shot is the chalange then shoot paper, if getting to the point where you have the shot is the chalange then more power to you and good luck

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

In some respects it effects all of us. Ever been to a deer yard in early winter? Check one out some time. Ever find a dead deer in the woods in the fall? Do not blame the coyotes. As a matter of fact though alot of guys out there are blasting me on this long range stuff If you notice they are talking about making 1 shot count. Not the first four or five. I am not really against semi autos, not my choice, I want accuracy and reliability. What I am against is the red neck that prays for the legalization of 20 round mags because " 5 ain' t enough for da stinking deer"
Think about it when someone dumps there .308 Rem 7400 at a deer they expended more energy then the average African hunter does with his shot to kill an Elephant with a .700 nitro, As a matter of fact, that .308 released nearly the energy of a .50 BMG, now talk about overkill!!

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Thanks for your reply to my question, and I will keepin mind what you mentioned. I am not angry or anoyed with any of you, you are a great bunch to debate with. Most replies offer facts and opinions, and I must addmitt I am very impressed with the ethics and attitudes of most everyone out there. I wish that more people in the hunting fields/ like you guys. By the way, if you read my posts I am sure all you guys shoot better then I spell.
Yes that plastic hand guard is not nice to look at, neither is the box mag. With the 03 how do you handle the rapid fire string?

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OK lets start again put it another way!!!! What is the greatest distance you would be willing to shoot at deer sized game, assuming good conditions and what equipement do you use? Myself, 12 1/2 pound .366 D.G.W. 300 yards or less, but you knew that I think. I would also use a 10.5 pound 7mm Stw when I get it built.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Good Lord, Judson, how many times are you going to respond to yourself in a row?

To answer your question, if I had a deer/elk/bear/whatever at 350 yards I' d look at it really hard, look at the ground between him and me, debate it in my head for about ten seconds, and if I couldn' t come up with any other solution to the problem, I' d line up the most careful shot I' ve ever made and take it. Anything inside 250 is a gimme.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

I believe if you look at the top of each of Juds posts hes addressing someone different with each reply.

I still have yet to get a shot up here thats much over 100-125yds so I would be ready for a longer shot but doubt where I hunt I would really get one.


woods

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Sorry, I understand he' s responding to quite a few people (truth be told, more people who ask questions should stick around afterward for the discussion like he does), but he could put it all in one big post or something. [8D]

You may not have the most popular opinion on the boards, Judson, but keep up the discussion nonetheless. :)

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Maybe I am unethical. Maybe not. But its just me. I see 30 or 40 deer on the roadside just on the way to Morgantown WV, every fall. Maybe its cause we are so overpopulated with the deer. But it doesn' t break my heart to find deer that noone recovered. I don' t know if the ones I see that wasn' t recovered was shot with a bolt, or a semi. Maybe you can tell the difference. Hey maybe I am unethical.

But there was an incident that really bothered me last year.
I shot at a nice sika deer 6pt last year at 130 yards in the swamps in MD with a coppersolid slug out of my 12ga with rifled barrel and scope. I shot his whole front let off. I waited for the animal to lay down for an hour. Then low and behold, I see this deer hobbling thru the woods behind me. He somehow worked all the way around me. I took a bad shot thru branches, and grass, just to do anything to get him out of his misery. Well of course shooting thru brush at 30 yards is a waste of time. I never could find him. I spent 5 hours searching for him pissing off other hunters by walking near them splashing around. but in swamp water, blood is hard to see. All my hunting buddies, said don' t worry about it. But something about this deer really upset me. I mean I practiced alot at 100 yards. And took a few shots at 150 yards. I knew the bullistics. I was in a tree stand with a great gun rest. All things felt good. maybe I hit a branch. maybe I pulled. But these slugs are very expensive. Hard to do much practicing.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Judson, I feel exactly like you do on this subject. Where is the " yardage" line drawn between hunting and shooting ? What does " Hunter" mean ? On the other hand whether one likes it or not it is perfectly legal to shoot animals at extended ranges. I just hope that if a person is willing to take real long shots that they have the training and ethics to back it up...I am sure some do but I think they really are in the minority. I personally like to be up close and personal with an animal I am about to kill if at all possible if not then it will be at a range where I can expect little to go wrong with the shot. If I am not mistaken there is a ban on .50 bmg rifles for hunting in Idaho because they(Fish and Game) were finding that some hunters were shooting Elk at ungodly distances and not bothering to properly recover animals unless the dead animal was visible from where they shot...

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

big country, I' m with you.

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Judson,
You say that you believe hunting is about getting close like bow hunting.
Following your logic of not taking long range shots due to the possibility of the animal moving or the wind blowing the shot off line you would really have to get close bow hunting, like 10 yards.
Long range shooting isn' t just being able to hit a target, that is the easy part.
A high powered rifle in a caliber with sufficient dowrange energy with a 16x or 20x scope sighted properly is perfectly capable of taking a deer or elk cleanly at 500 yards.
The experience of the man behind the gun is the telling factor in the success or failure of long range shots.
1. he has to know the game well enough to be able to tell when the animal is settle and be confident the animal is not about to move
2. has to know how to achieve a solid rest in the field
3. needs to be able to read the wind conditions
4. needs to know the sight in of his rifle and the bullet drop to his target
5. needs to know the correct yardage to his target

Here is where the experienced rifleman comes in. Unless he has the skills equipment and information listed above he will not attempt the long range shot.
He knows his capabilities and limitations, and will pass on a shot if it is not right.
I will definitely agree inexperienced hunters should not attempt long range shots at game. I would venture a wild guess that no more that 5 or 10 percent of hunters have the experience/knowledge/equipment to be taking 500 yard shots in the field.

As to the feeling that all long range shooters of game are not good hunters then I can only think you have never hunted in the West in the mountains. You either take a long range shot across canyon or risk never seeing the animal again due to the thermals shifting and the fact that it might take you a couple hours to climb down and back up the other side to where you saw the animal and small chance the animal will still be there waiting for you.
Sometimes you have to go all the way back up and over and then down the other side to get to the animal, it sounds easy when you say " just get closer" .

RE: Long Range Shooting
 

Did I I I repeat myself self?? Oh well sorry! Big country the slug guns of today are a far cry from 30 years ago. Out to over 100 yards they can rival rifle accuracy. I do not believe you are unethical You tried your best to find that deer!!! That is my hole point here, things can and do go wrong so it is up to us to do our best to elimate that possibility. When one speaks in generalities he will step on the toes of the exceptions. Where I live we hear alot of the stories of 500 yard + or - shots that start with " I thought I might be able to hit him." These are the people who I am talking about, the same people that will fire a shot, or barrage of shots at a deer and if it does not go down assume a miss.
I am not trying to argumentitive but I believe the average hunter/ shooter has no business shooting at game at over 300 yards. Since I have a range behind my gun shop I see lots of people sighting in and just plane shooting for fun. There are very few that can shoot 1" or less at 100 yards. Kidding alittle, to prove my point look at test results of most gun writers. Maby they can write but most of them can' t shoot. 1 3/4" from a Ruger 77, Same from a A Bolt . That is not my experiance with these guns. Now I said most gun writers so blease be merciful on me!!! Oh yes, If you can' t shoot better then I spell, give up.