RE: 30-30 for deer
 

If I were sitting about 200 yds. away from a nice buck with my .30-30, I' d simply put my crosshairs about 3" below the top if his back and fire. And then I' d go pick my deer up and drag him back to the car.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

If i' m sitting 200 yards away from a deer with my 30-30 then I can' t see him! That' s why I like my 30-30 in certain areas. When you can' t see past 50 - 70 yards in 98% of the places you hunt and past 100 yards in the other 2% then the 30-30 is a nice gun to have for me :D

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

To me putting a scope on a 30/30 is defeating the purpose of it which is quick pointing at close range. If your going to put a scope on it just get a std bottlenecked case from the 243 and up ....MHO

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Oldelkhunter, I did read your post, I pointed out that you said it was an ill advised shot. Your post was a good one that brought up a good point, I was just restating that the 30-30 isn' t capible of reliable clean kills at that range (same as you did in your post).

I didn' t mean for that to come out like I was saying that you didn' t have good ethics, If I did I' m sorry. I was just talking about hunting ethics in general. And giving a few options on what to do if you' re in that position.

Now I will say that one reason someone might hunt with a 30-30 is because it' s more of a challenge. like hunting with a muzzleloader or a bow.

I hunt with a recurve, I could shoot 40 yards with a compound but I would rather my range be limitied to 20 yards and have a more fulfilling hunt.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Kodiakhuntmaster...sorry I jumped the gun on you

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

My 30-30 has a reciever sight and is sighted in dead on at 50 yards I use it only when slalking and expect to walk up to the deer (usually windy days when the deer don' t move much). When I sit (my prefered method) I use a scoped rifle either .243,.270 or the .30-06 ( they take turns) IMHO that' s where the 30-30 shines.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Oldelkhunter, it' s fine. When a thread like this one drags out, posts can start to come off wrong. It' s my fault.


on the subject of inexpencive options other than the 30-30,

A shotgun may be a better choice than a 30-30. It' s much more versatile. A fully rifled barrel (slug gun) and premium sabot slugs work very well. The range is about the same. A fair shotgun can be had for about the same price as a 30-30, and has a whole lot more knockdown power at close ranges.

I still think the best deal on the market is a NEF handi-rifle. They' re a good seventy dollars cheaper than a marlin lever action and they have a MUCH wider variety of calibers available.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

I own a 30-30, a 35, and a 32 special. They are all similiar guns and are right for the type of rifle hunting I do. I hunt in thick woods and sometimes semi open woods, but rarely have a shot over 100 yards. If I do some hunting that is more wide open or long distance, between my dad or brother I can borrow one of theirs, but that is a rare occasion. I' ve shot alot of deer in my years hunting and have never had a problem with the 30-30. If u practice and are comfortable with the gun and take a good shot, wounding a deer wont be a problem. I bet too say there are just as many deer wounded with other calibers and I would venture too say its not the gun, but the hunters fault.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Forestore. You summed it up well and your statement says it all. The 30-30 was a good deer rifle when it came out and nothing developed since takes anything away from it. It is a great country we live in and anyone who does not want to use a 30-30 or does not have what it takes to use it has many other choices. Those of us who have used it for many years with none of the problems discussed here, will continue to use it and it will do the job that it has for over 100 years. New developments do not render old developments useless the old thought that it is out of date is hogwash. Deer are the same now as they ever were. G ood hunters will continue to have good success with the 30-30 and other old calibers in that class. You NEVER HAVE TO TAKE A QUESTIONABLE SHOT.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

In the woods, it is no real feat to put a bullet out of a 30-30 in the boiler room of a deer. When you do, every deer will die quickly. It is really not much more complicated than that.
The only real feat is to put yourself were you need to be, and if you scout your hunting area, deer hunting is an all year sport.

Judging by the success rate of the guys I hunt with who sit on a pipeline with something more powerful than my Marlin in hand looking out across several hundred yards, I would say that it is much harder to hunt the pipeline with the magnum since I always have better luck in the woods with my Marlin.

C. Davis

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Ass/u/me-ing Boywonder can make a 300 yard shot on a woodchuck with a 30-30, just imagine what he could do with a flat shooting gun!
He could likely stop a deer dead in it' s tracks at a mile, maybe a mile and a quarter![&:]:D

As far as the " sitting at the edge of the woods and seeing a good deer at 200+ yards" senario, that is my point exactly! Since there is NO such thing as a " brushbuster" , if you were carrying a good deer caliber and happened to see a shooter at 200+ yards, you would not have to think twice about wether or not to shoot!

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Frank, you are exactly right. A 30-30, or any gun for that matter is not a " brushbuster." That term is a misnomer. I hate when I hear people say that any gun is a good brush gun. All guns require a clear shot.

Frank, has it been hot enough for you? I finally had a day off today to spend out on our deer land. It must have been too hot for the snakes since usually I see at least one cottonmouth in the water holes, but none today.

C. Davis

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

love my leupold m-8 fixed 4x scope on my model 94. has a sleek look and puts my tired ole eyes right on the money. unless its going on a sadle id put a scope on it.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

CD, man it was plenty hot in East Tex today!
Did you see the parade of ATV' s, feeders, and stands going through East Tex today?
I am usually way ahead of the crowd but, this year time has crept up on me!
I spent this morning and last Saturday clearing trails and setting up stands! And I STILL have work to do!
CD, the snakes may have been hiding from the heat today but, the chiggers sure were' nt! Even though I sprayed myself pretty good, I think I brought a few of those pesky little critters home with me! Are you about ready?

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Frank,
You are right about the parade. Every other vehicle in SE Texas is a truck, and right now it seems that every other two has a 4-wheeler attached to it in some way. If you see a brown and tan 83 Bronco with P-Buckshots pulling a little red trailer with an orange suzuki 4-wheeler, it is me.

Most of my scouting is already done. I have found that the most pleasurable time to scout is January-March. It is amazing how open the woods become that part of the year. You can also go all day without being drenched with sweat.

My favorite hunting tactic is to find a good rub line leading to where It opens up nicely for a feeder. Most guys set up to watch the feeder, but I like to get on the thickest part of the rub line that leads to the feeder. I find a good tree, or sometimes I use a tripod, and get about 75 yards looking NE through thin shooting lanes that I usually have to wait until this time of year to cut because the greenery grows incredibly fast in this part of the country. I usually cut 3 thin lanes that look like spokes of a wagon wheel with my stand being the hub. You don' t want your lanes to be too wide, because these ' Piney Wood Bucks' are smart. The theory is that you get a good look at him in the first lane, and you have two more to get a good shot. I have found though that in the thick stuff, a buck can come from any direction, and sometimes they might even use your thin lanes for travel routes. That is exactly what the buck I shot last year was doing.

I think I might have stumbled on to the real reason I like my Marlin. If I used my .270, I' m sure I would be out in this brutal heat cutting 200yd lanes.

C. Davis

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

I haven' t used a 30/30 in many years,haven' t even got one any more,have had a Marlin336,win 94 and a glendfield,and have taken a lot of deer with them and groundhogs on ocassion but used a 22 and 410 on most groundhogs because we ate them.
I hunted in the good old days when 6out of 10 hunters carried a 30/30,3out of 10 carried a single barrel shotgun,1 out of 10 carried a used military rifle.I have helped some track deer they shot even at shot range mostly because they couldn' t hit a bull in the a-- at 25 yds.But the ones that could shoot,they had no problems with the 30/30 and I have seen some including myself make unbelievable shots on groundhogs and deer.If the young fellow says he made those shots I will take his word for it.
What makes me wonder is how long some of the ones that knock the 30/30 so bad have used a 30/30.
And the cheap price of them now,I bought the glenfield for $79 don' t remember what year.but the used ones I have seen for sale they want an arm and leg for.
All in all I don' t think you have a problem with a 30/30 if you learn to shoot it ,if thats what you want to use.Myself have graduated to flater shooting rifles but won' t knock another guys choice.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Just for the fun of it I have decided to add my 2 cents worth. If there is anything you can do with a 150 grain .30 caliber bullet from a .30-06 at 300 yards that you can' t do with 150 grain .30 caliber bullet from a .30-30 at 150 yards.....I would like someone to explain to me, what that might be!?!

Now don' t get me wrong....I enjoy and shoot many different caliber guns, (rifles and handguns). But if the .30-30 is as useless as so many have suggested...I guess I should take my 16.25" barreled Marlin in .44 Magnum and throw it away. (Or put it in some other such useful place!?!) And I' d have a real dilemma about what to do with my recurve and or long bows!

I' ve shot the " Leg Match Course" which involves 200, 300, and 600 yards targets with aperature sights using both accurized M16' s and match grade M14' s. I' ve also taken deer at just over 115 yards using Saboted shotgun slugs. Additionally I' ve shot military .30 caliber (7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester) on 1000 yard lines. What of any of which proves anything you may ask? Simply this.....when a weapon, any weapon, is used in a reasonable manner, by a reasonable person, within its intended limitations it produces satisfactory results. If the only goal was to kill an animal, any animal, at a maximum range then I suppose I would sit on a mountain top using high power optics and laser ranging/marking devices and call in air support. Now before you tell me how ridiculous I am being...consider this. I have just sat here and read four pages (plus or minus) of any number of people....telling other people....how foolish they were for not using " THE" weapon that provided the best possibility of making a " KILL" at whatever range presented itself. Well here is my take on that! If that is YOUR goal.....do what makes you happy! You have my blessings! However, before you blanketly condemn everyone and or anyone that does not have that same goal....you might consider politely asking them what exactly their intention(s) were/are. A little respect goes a long way.

My suggestion also includes this possibility. If your " ONLY" goal is to put meat in the freezer why not make a trip to the butcher shop. Add up the cost of your gear, time, travel expense, etc. and you might realize that buying meat in the supermarket in many instances today is cheaper than what you acquire by hunting! If however you hunt for reasons other than just to provide for your next meal....that reason(s) might include some self imposed limitations. The .30-30 is " MORE" than adequate when used by responsible persons! And if you aren' t responsible.....nothing is adequate!

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Well said[:-]

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Well you can generate between 250 and 350 more foot pounds of energy for starters.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Which the deer will never notice. Good shot placement with a 30-30 at 150 yards will kill them as dead as they need to be killed. As I said before if you don,t like the 30-30 don,t buy one. However if you would have had the success with the 30-30 that We who use them have had then nobody will convine me not to use it when I feel conditions are right for this old tool of deer hunting. I traded in my last 30-30 a few weeks ago because I was short of money to pick up a new rifle that I had on layaway. When times are better I may replace it with another. Or I may not as I have other tools that will do just as well. IF I DO MY PART. Same as the 30-30.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Okay, having answered the first part of the question.....(250-350 additional foot pounds)....now explain to me.....WHAT are you going to do with it? I can generate 250 to 350 foot pounds of energy by pushing on a wall....all of which goes to prove????????

It is not a required function (the minimal amount of additional energy) to effect a " clean kill" on whitetail deer. Using an icepick I could kill a person with just several foot pounds of energy! So my question remains....In the " real world" show me the difference?!?

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Get the 30-30. It has killed more deer than any other gun out there.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Like thats even a valid arguement. Firstly I would venture to say that some variant or a 22 rimfire can be credited with the most kills followed closely by a shotgun using bucksot. We all know that a 22 rimfire is no deer rifle and buckshot has been outlawed in many states. In addition it stands to reason that more deer have been wounded with the 30-30 than any other cartridge.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

model 94 winchester 30-30. never let me down, and ive never been skunked. allways a clean kill so far. i find it a better bush gun than a feild gun though.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

I have killed more Deer with my Marlin 336 30-30 than with any other weapon. If had to give them all up but one, this would be the one I would keep.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Friz. Iv' e seen ten times as many deer wounded by 243' s than all other calibers combined and I was a hunting guide for about 12 years. I have seen quite a few deer missed with a 30-30 but not many hit and wounded.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Frizz,

Let me be blunt about this.....are you saying the problem with the use of the .30-30 is the fault of the cartridge? Or the user? They are not one and the same! So let' s first make sure we understand which YOU believe is the problem.

Do you believe the .44 Rem Mag is sufficient to cleanly kill a deer? And if so to what range, (or more importantly at what range does it CEASE to be an effective killer of whitetail deer)?

Exactly what cartridge do you consider to be a minimum for cleanly killing whitetail deer? (And at what range does it cease to be effective?) What is YOUR cartridge for cleanly killing whitetails? Do you have a range limitation? And with what load? Is that also effective on extremely windy days, or not? And would that be whitetails typical of those found in Florida or Maine...for instance. (A 120 pound whitetail or a 250 pound whitetail?)

You are right about at least one assertion. Any cartridge that has been used to a great degree to kill game will also by sheer fact of numbers be involved in more woundings than a cartridge that is little used. And yes a cartridge with extra energy can turn a marginal hit into an effective killing shot. (But the down side of that argument can be equally stated as a heavier recoiling rifle may well lead to more marginal hits to begin with. See how easy it is to twist any argument to suit your " purpose" !) But the fact of the matter is that the fault is in its' use.....not in its' ballistics. If we were to believe that the .30-30 does not have sufficient energy to cleanly kill whitetails...how would you explain the large numbers of whitetails killed with relatively small bore black powder rifles used in the early years of the colonies? These rifles produce energy levels (as measured in foot pounds) that don' t even measure up to most modern handgun rounds, especially as you move further from the muzzle...(inefficient round balls)!

I stick to my original assertion. The .30-30 and all of it' s peers are sufficient in the hands of a responsible user.....and nothing is sufficient if you are not responsible! If you have had many negative experiences with the .30-30 on whitetails....yes I question your responsibility!

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Here is my clarified opinion of the 30-30 Win. Firstly it is an anemic cartridge as a factory loading. That is a given. It cannot be improved upon very much by handloading because of the weak case. That is another given. Most people buy a 30-30 rifle for the wrong reason. Either some pimple faced kid at Wal Mart says it has " killed more deer than any other cartridge" or " it will shoot right through brush" , they buy it because it is cheap, or they get it because Grandpa had one. At any rate most people who buy them give no thought whatsoever to ballistics, performance and the game they are hunting. So now we have an uneducated hunter using an inferior tool. I don' t see why anyone in their right mind would ever recommend a 30-30 for anything nor a 44 Rem Mag rifle for that matter unless they made it clear to specify short range shots. I used to live in a hunting club. I spent 10 years tracking wounded deer. The two cartridges the wounded the most deer hands down were the 30-30 Win shot at anything over 100 yards and the 223 Rem at any range. Most were good hits too. So yes I have a strong dislike for the cartridge, and yes I have used one and taken deer with it. However, with so many better choices out there the only thing I use mine for now is a doorstop.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Okay, now we have some points that we agree on. You are correct that many times the .30-30 is selected for all of the wrong reasons...(ie. Grandpa used one, it' s cheap, and/or it was recommended by someone with little or no experience with it, or any other cartridges' use). You are also correct when you say it can be a terrible wounder when misused! And in comparison to even the aged .30-06 for instance.....it is rather " anemic" . I could not agree with you more when you say that many of its' users are neither educated about ballistics, and could care less. And when you take all of this into consideration it has drastic potential for misuse!

Now let me say where we do not see eye to eye. Some hunters, (that may be very knowledgeable), make a conscious decision to use a tool, (and that is all that any firearm is), that requires the hunter to place limitations. If that were not true we could simply throw out all bows, handguns, and muzzleloaders. Some of us do not enter the woods with our " ONLY" goal being.....to be able to kill our intended game with the most efficient tool for the purpose. We intentionally decide to add a " handicap" to increase the challenge. If you do not have the discipline to turn down an " iffy" shot....then don' t challenge yourself in that manner. But the truth of the matter is that no matter what weapon you choose to use....it has limitations. And if you knowingly exceed those limitations when shooting at live game animals....YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE! There is no other nice way of saying it. If you can not be ethical....stay out of the field and woods.

You are also right about SLOBS. (Now I know that sometimes inexperience is a factor.) But once again....those are the same people that do " STUPID" things regardless of the tools they are using. One of the most difficult tasks I find myself up against all of the time is trying to convince an uneducated (read that ignorant) person that guns are not BAD things. But that they are capable of being used for BAD things when in the hands of BAD people. Let us not fall into the trap of blaming the " OBJECT" when it is the responsibility of the object' s USER!

I have killed two deer that some moron(s), (probably during Pennsylvania' s squirrel season), had shot with a .22 rimfire. Now I could say that all .22 rimfires are terrible tools and not fit for their intended purpose. But I won' t! What I will say is when you put a tool into the hands of foolish people...sometimes foolish things occur! Let' s not misplace where the real fault is!!!

P.S. One other thing we agree on....in hands of an average user I don' t consider the .223 an effective whitetail cartridge. (Yes I know it works.....but under field conditions it is NOT a good choice.)

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

I can attest to people behind the sporting goods counter not knowing what they are talkiing about ( at least this time)..... My very first rifle was a Marlin 336 .30-30. I went to a local store having a sale on them ( You had a choice between the .30-30 or the .35 rem same money) I was new to the game so I asked the man behind the counter what the difference was ... not much was the answer but the .35 rem shells are more expensive so I left there with the .30-30. I have a .30-30 again but I only use it for certain situations

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Well, I see that everyone wants to bash the 30-30. Out with the old and in with the new, well not for me. I' ll stick with my THURTY-THURTY (30-30) and my .243 . I love the 30-30. You use what suits you, and I' ll use what suits me. The 30-30 will takes down a deer just as effectively as a 30-06, in the right conditions, becuase, I will admit, the 30-30 does have its limitations. No, its not a power-house, that can take down an elephant, but it' ll get the job done. I love my ' ol Winchester 94, it was my first rifle, though it is kinda hard to shoot with, I will never put down the 30-30, becuase iI just love the gun and the cartridge. I have a special " bond" with it, becuase its the first rifle that my dad gave me. I say, that if you know your shots are within 150 yards, and you have good eye-sight, go for the 30-30, or what ever YOU are comfortable with. I hunt with the 30-30 much, and I probably wont this season, becuase I have a Savage 110 in .243 . I can' t use the iron sights to good on that old 94 warhorse, so I have to go with a scope. I just had to put my 2 cents wirth in, because I am a strong advocate of the 30-30, though I' ve neer killed a deer with it. Down in the south, you metion 30-30, and everyone knows what you' re talking about[8D]

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

I quess according to Friz, those of us educated by 40 years of deer hunting and still using a 30-30 Must be real stupid. The deer now are just to modern to be killed with a 30-30. I quess good hunters who have no trouble at all killing deer are out of date now too. Bring on the Laserdeer blasters we can kill and cook them with one ray blast. Or if we had a ray to beam deer back 50 years or so then , us out of date and stupid uneducated hunters could then kill them with a 30-30 again like we used to.;)

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

In the final analysis it all boils down to this. If you disrupt enough vital organs to cause life supporting function to cease to exisit....how you did it is not important! I also understand that when you factor into the mix things like inexperience, lack of skill, or lack of ethics, you have increased potential for misuse and/or abuse. Because of those reasons there is some validity to the argument to use a more efficient tool to do the job, (in this case....kill a deer). And I do not have an argument with you if you recommend a more modern cartridge to an inexperienced hunter. (You are correct in your assertion it is easier to effect a kill to a longer range with a cartridge like.....a .270 Winchester for instance, than a .30-30.) Where we differ on the argument is when you unequivically say that the .30-30 is NOT sufficient to kill a deer! When used in a responsible manner there is not a deer alive that cannot be killed with a .30-30 under usual field conditions!

Where I have extensively hunted whitetails in Pennsylvania the longest shot I have ever had to take with a rifle was approximately 95 yards. (My longest shot on a whitetail period was on Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland with a Saboted Shotgun Slug....a stepped off 115 yards.) The shot taken at 95 yards happened to be with a .356 Winchester using a 200 Power Point. The deer took two additional steps, fell, and slid back to where it was when hit. The closest deer I have ever shot in Pennsylvania with a rifle was about 1 and a half yards off my muzzle using a .308 Winchester loaded with 170 grain bullet intended for .30-30 velocities but handloaded to approximate .300 Savage velocities. The two I mentioned earlier that some nitwit(s) had previously wounded with a .22 rimfire...one was killed with a .30-06 using a 150 Hornady....and the other with the .308 using one of those previously mentioned handloads. (That deer by the way had both hind quarters ruined/spoiled from infection where it had been shot with the rimfire. The bullet had also nearly cut in half it' s reproductive organ. So how much do you believe that deer suffered!?!) I considered myself fortunate to have sacrificed my permit to end it' s misery.

The point of all the above paragraph is to demonstrate that idiocy lies in the " hands of the user" , not the " tool" ! It was also to show that of the dozens and dozens of whitetail I have harvested each and every one of them was not only within the effective range of the .30-30, but I could have cleanly killed any of them with my short .44 Magnum Marlin. (I have actually killed deer with both the .357 Magnum in a handgun....limited my range to less than 50 yards. And a .44 Magnum handgun....and decided not to exceed 100 yards....but never actually shot beyond about 45 yards.) In every of the above kills a .30-30 would have worked just as well. Does it provide less margin for error than say a .30-06? Yes, it does! But don' t ever think the problem lies within the cartridge. The problem lies SOLELY with the USER!

Before you accuse me of having no experience at shooting game beyond short range. I will tell you this. I have extensive experience with varmints, (groundhogs in particular), to over 400 yards. And I have shot other big game in Germany (the former FRG) and Alaska at ranges beyond those mentioned above on whitetails. Actually to just over 300 yards on Caribou, (which by the way is about what I consider my maximum at unwounded big game). So please....make the distinction with where the problem really is.....the USER! Not the tool! (Ever try to turn a screw with a hammer?)

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

good post jamesb!i do not own a 30-30 now but probably have killed more with a marlin 336 than a lot hunters have killed with all the others.;)

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

quote by friz

A greater bunch of BS i' ve never read.....

Obviously you' ve never hunted with a .30-30

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

friz, you have posted more than 15 times on this particular thread

What is there about you that thinks you' re so superior that you get to have the lions share of the say.......I can hear you once.....but 15 times is mere bullcrap.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!!

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

I have a Winchest 94 and it has killed 60 deer in my hunting life...lol (forever)! I have a Weatherby 270 mag., and a 30-06 and a few other " good" rifles, but the 30-30 is STILL my favorite for knock down power at less than 150 yds. PLUS it shoots thru brush (if there is a twig or two between you and the deer). TRY THAT with one of the high $$ rifles and you will not get your deer! I killed one of my elk at close range with my 270 mag (at 20 yards)....took three shots (they said 270 mag was a LONG range gun???). If I' d had my 30-30 with the corelok 170 gr hollowpoints...ONE would have been all that was necessary!!

Let' s hear it for 30-30' s!!!!!!!!!!:D:D

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Hey vapodog, " I' m exercising my rights to freedom of speech.....you and other left wing radicals got a problem with that?"

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Hey Frizz,

I' ve got no problem with your 1st Admendment rights. As a matter of fact...I enjoy lively discourse! It is one of the founding principles of this great nation. Now how about allowing that someone else' s " pursuit of happiness" may include hunting deer with a .30-30?

I agree wholeheartedly with you in sharing in your disgust when someone misuses the .30-30 and causes needless suffering of an animal deserving of a humane death! (No...I am not a tree hugging green weenie either.....we grew up butchering farm animals at a number of places during my childhood. Which meant we would eat better in the " near future" .) But I am also disgusted at the site of " hunters" (read slobs) that stand and bang away at running game 400, 500 yds, or even further with whatever rifle they are holding. (And yes I have personally witnessed this on more than one instance......the same FOOL trying to assure me that their 300 Magnum shot " flat as a string" to 500 yards, requiring no hold over!)
So I remain firm in my belief that the .30-30 (and many other similar cartridges) are fine for deer hunting when used RESPONSIBLY)! The cartridge is not the problem......the FOOL behind the stock is the problem!

There are more than enough examples of misuse of any number of cartridges...which only goes to prove you can' t make something foolproof as long as fools remain! So how about we quit beating a " dead horse" (not to mention inanimate objects) and start holding people accountable for their actions? Trust me...there is nothing wrong with the .30-30 in the right hands. We would accomplish much more if we attempted to explain to and educate those new to the sport, rather than cartridge bashing. And as far as all the " know it alls" ...there is little chance we can affect any change in either their thinking...or their behavior!