454 Casull, big enough to stop a grizzley?
 

What do you all think? Would a 454 Casull stop a grizzley at short range? I don't yet own a handgun and if I do get one, I want something that has multiple purposes; home protection, whitetail hunting and something to give me a little piece of mind when I go fly-fishing in bear country again. I'd be interested if anyone had new of an article on the net or (god-forbid)had first or second hand knowledge of a large caliber handgun killing a grizzley. I've always been kinda skeptical of ANY handgun round having the knockdown power to take down one of these beasts but after looking at some of the energy produced by the Casull, I'm not so sure.

My opinion on this is no handgun is suitable for bear defense. Sure you can hunt and kill big bears with a nice broadside shot, but being able to place a nice well aimed shot through the massive, thick chest of a bear that is charging you is totally different. And if the bear isn't charging you, then you have no right to shoot it as far I am concerned. I would be carry some of the bear pepper spray myself, and try to do everything else smartly. People who leave their food out and stuff like that, that is just retarded. The chances of a bear attacking you unprovoked are so slim. If you were dead set on a gun, I would be packing a short barreled 12 guage loaded with some big slugs.

A handgun is better than no gun in bear country.Pepper spray seems to work well but I'd feel a lot better with a potent rifle along.

+1, and reasonably sized handgun is better than your fingernails but they are all far less than ideal and there will be an element of luck involved in actually stopping a bear. My elk hunting partner, who has hunted in thick grizzly country for years and had his share of encounters, told me to bring the largest handgun I owned but not bother buying anything new just to have "a bear gun". He said if a bear is committed to getting you, no handgun is going to stop it short of a lucky shot. All you can hope is to make yourself seem un-tasty enough to break it off and give you time to get a REAL gun turned on him.

Yeah, I don't think I would use a .454 round for home protection, the gun I was looking at (the Taurus Raging Bull) also fires a .45 Longcolt as well.

If I do buy one, it would be a whitetail hunting weapon first and home protection/bear protection weapon second.

I can't believe a 338 win mag couldn't take down a grizzley and a 375 H&H could. They have similar energy profiles and the .375 H&H isn't that much larger in diameter than the .338 win mag. Do you know what kind of bullets they were using?

Alot of guides pack a short barreled 12 gauge. Damn fine with bird shot for home defense too- a .454, or even 44 mag could keep going through target and walls to someone you dont want to hit. Even an adrenalin charged white tail can go a long way with a heart shot.

I think a 454 casull would probably stop a bus... :D

The issue with pepper spray - any pepper spray - is that you best not have to spray it into the wind. So that kinda gives you a 50/50 chance at it doing anything at all for you.

I vote for the 12 gauge and slugs.

That's kinda how I feel about pepper spray as well. If you think about it, you are more likely to accidentally sneak up on Grizzly if you are down wind (i.e. wind in your face) of one anyway so the pepper spray wouldn't be very effective.

I totally agree that the most effective, short range weapon for a Grizzly is probably a shotgun slug but how likely is someone going to carry a shotgun to a trout stream or hiking through the mountains. I would think a 454 Casull pushing a 325 grain Swift A-Frame bullet at 1800 ft/second would make all but the most persistant Griz think twice about making me his or her meal. Just a thought......

Heck, you can kill them with a .22 with proper shot placement but I wouldn't be the one who tried it. The thing I've found with pepper spray is you have to get TOOOOO close to whatever you shoot it at and, as said earlier, pay attention to the wind! Try a .460 Smith & Wesson. It'll shoot .454s and with the .460 S&W 200 gr Hornady it's point of aim at 200 Yds, so you can use it for deer too, ........ or cars or semis .......

A full size 454 revolver isn't exactly a compact carry weapon in itself. Ruger does (or did) make a compact version of their super redhawk witn a 2 1/2" barrel, but you'r going to sacrifice a lot of velocity, and energy, when compared to a 7" barrel. Plus, I can only imagine the recoil on that compact beast with full power loads. If I was truely concerned about ragging grizzlies, a marlin guide gun in 45-70 loaded with 405 or 430 gr. buffalo bore ammo would be my choice. Personally, I believe one can get off more accurate shots under stressfull situations using a compact rifle over a handgun. When you're dealing with 900+ pounds of pi$$ed off teeth and claws, you want every shot to count.

The ONLY reason to rationally substitute ANY handgun for a long gun when bears are concerned is when the weight or size of a long gun precludes it from being carried, or when the handgun is stowed so that is a more quickly-accessible backup than a long gun which you may not get into play as quickly. PERIOD.

I've carried a 40S&W in bear country, but only because it was available at in some situations I MAY not have access to the rifle and I'd rather have an underpowered handgun than my fingernails.

..........Plus the fact that a rifle barrel is soooo much harder to swallow and digest than a little handgun......

If I was going to get a rifle to specifically deal with bears I'd get something like this in .416 Ruger:

http://www.ruger.com/products/m77Haw...an/models.html

BUT that's not what I was asking. I was seeing what people thought about the ability of a large caliber handgun in stopping a Grizzly. If I were to buy a .454 Casull and bring it into bear country, I would indeed practice with it enough to have the confidence (not to mention muscle memory) to get off a few well placed shots. Having said that, I don't know how I would personally deal with the situation of having a Grizzly bear down on me but I do know (from military rifle training) that the best way to prepare for war is to practice and practice until you can do it in your sleep and then rely on your instinct to take over when the situation presents itself.

As far as handguns and grizzlies go, a 454 casull is good as a choice as you can get when it comes to packing a big punch. That or a 475 linebaugh.

Anyone seen that little S&W revolver chambered for the 500 S&W? Be harder than hell to shoot it straight but Id imagine anything hit with that would be very very sorry..lol.

I knew a girl who grew up in a coastal village in Alaska. She was given a .357mag on her 9th birthday to carry to school and back as the road went near a salmon stream.

People were protecting themselves from bears long before today's big bore handguns came along. The .44 used to be king but today it seems people think it is somehow less effective now that bigger options are available. It's all relative.

I would guess that with the right placement that it would kill a grizzly but honestly, I wouldn't get one for home protection. In a protection situation you want something that you have an intinmate knowledge of the weapon and how accurate it is going to be for you and that means time on the range. The bullet will do the job but whether or not you have gusto or cash for that matter that it would take to do it may be another question. Besides these factors, I say if your going to go big for grizz then go big. SW makes a nice 2" barrel model just for this in 500sw. Thats the caliber I'd go with.

http://www.takdriver.com/showthread.php?t=723

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos...alaska?photo=1

Yes, a 454 casull will work. Notice that he used the short barrel redhawk alaskan to defend himself.

"Besides these factors, I say if your going to go big for grizz then go big. SW makes a nice 2" barrel model just for this in 500sw. Thats the caliber I'd go with."

I'd forgotten about the 500 S&W. Another big revolver round that would probably do well.

Holy hell! I would have soiled myself for sure, I'm surprised he got off any shots at all. God was truly with him that day!

Stop
 

Y'know....not everyone is talking about the same thing here.
There's "will it kill a grizzly?" and there's "will it stop a grizzly?"
Not nearly the same thing.
You'd have to be extraordinarily lucky to stop an agitated/angry/hungry grizzly with ANY handgun. The fellow in AK who had the encounter with the Griz whilst walking his dog......yeah, he killed it but he didn't stop it, though he sure came close:
"Rolled him at 5 feet and he
skidded to a stop 10 feet BEYOND where I was
Shooting from...."
"Stop it" means that the animal does not get to you. He was lucky to survive and he knows it. His sidestep probably saved him from real hurt (he ended up on his butt). Had the animal only run him over (as opposed to mauling), he'd have been in bad shape.
Pete

Agree, instantly stopping, dead cold, a large bear in a full out pi$$ed off charge is very slim with any handgun and many rifle calibers for that fact but a it can mean the difference between surviving the attack and ending up bear crap.

There is probably nothing on this earth, short of .416 Rigby or .500 Nitro mag (or RPG or M203 grenade launcher) that will "Stop" a charging grizzly. That hot 454 casull round did a fantastic job killing that Grizzly, I don't think you could have asked a handgun to do any better. Also, what are the chances that guy would have taken a large caliber rifle with him to walk his dog?

yep
 

Exactly.

Slim and none.
But that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea.

Pete

If you want to stop a grizzly, just say please...

Ok guys.

Few things. One if you don't want to worry about Grizz bearing down on you - don't go out in Grizz country. For most of us who like outdoors in those areas this is not an option.
Just be smart about things. Nothing is foolproof in outdoors but one can greatly decrease chances. Don't go alone, don't have aromatic food etc, don't hike on game trails unless hunting etc , make human noise - talk, carry bear spray - it is proven to work though again not 100 % foolproof and learn bear behavior and how to act, Stuff most of us know likely.
As far as gun I believe the question is what HANDGUN will stop and or kill a grizz threatening your life? Nothing is fool proof. Practice will help. That said the bigger and stronger the load the better obviously. Anything less than a high grain .44 mag is just going to end your life quicker by pissing off an already mad grizz if you shoot it with less than .44 and as many have you have rightly stated that in itself is definitely no guarantee. Personally I don't want to kill the magnificent beast anyway and at last resort but hey if between me and being a meal yeah I would choose .454 Ruger ( 6 shots vs 5 of taurus) and practice your ass off.
Also If you shoot it in the leg I don't care how mad and big he is it is going to either face plant or stop. It may recover & still come after you but unless you get side shot near base of skull or lucky shot to heart you going to do nothing but make him end you faster. If by chance you stop it and wound it in process for love of god please track and kill it. One it is humane thing to do and 2 a wounded grizz will be a greater danger to any other soul who comes across it before it dies. I would take .44, .454, 480, or 500 if picking handgun for backup to bearspray or rilfe. As stated before sometimes rifles are not an option due to size and weight if backpacking etc. Anything less as i said will only tick the beast off unless you are lottery lucky. Peace

While I agree with just about everything fatheadbob said I do have one thing to say. He does say he would take the Ruger over the Taurus (6 shots vs. 5). I would say that if a bear does decide to come at you there are only two scenieros: 1 you saw him first and you have your handgun drawn. (and hopefully backing away). In this instance, if it does come, you may be able to get off 2 shots. Don't forget you have to recover from the heavy recoil. 2. You don't see the bear until its already coming and you'll be lucky to get off even one shot.

I suppose the moral of the story then, bronko, is there's no good reason to go into insanely thick cover in bear country without one's handgun, or big-bore lever rifle, or shotgun with slugs at the ready. Even if you're on a rifle hunt and see an elk or deer you're after in such cover, chances are you're at a close enough range that you're best off using the handgun, instead.
I understand of course that bear loads are generally hard cast bullets not designed to expand, but is punching a well-placed .44 or .45 wound channel through the body of a deer or elk so unjustifiably worse than using a more hunting-suitable .30 cal bullet, especially when the hard cast round is dependable in case you run into a bear? That's a genuine question.

A 325 grain bullet at 1800 fps is comparable to some 12 slug loads. If 12 gauges are used I don't see why a .454 wouldn't work. I think this one boils down to the individual. Can one shoot all the bullets quickly and accurately enough with that kind of recoil?

There's a big difference in what we are saying. The OP is asking about carrying a 454 in bear country and will it stop a bear. He also said he never owned a handgun before. So if he is in "bear country" my impression is that he is either hiking, camping or fishing or some other outdoor activity other than hunting where he would be carrying a rifle or shotgun.
And while I believe the 454 is capable of killing a large bear the chances of doing so and stopping it on a charge is relatively small, especially for a novice handgunner. And to get off multiple shots would be damn near impossible. Even the FBI states that at only 21' a person (ref:Tueller Drill), being attacked by another would have difficulty removing a holstered firearm and getting off a shot. And a bear is a heck of a lot faster than a human.

I used to carry my 7 1/2" Ruger SBH .44 mag with me most of the time outside of work that I was in grizzly country. Most of the bears that I saw ran in the other direction as soon as they saw me.


The only one that didn't was one time two friends and I were hunting near West Yellowstone, MT. We were camped at the end of a forest service road, and we had two elk and a moose hanging in the stock rack in the back of my pickup.


One night, just before going to bed, I went outside to "water a bush" on the side of the road. When I got to the side of the road I was met by a Woof and the clicking of the teeth of a grizzly on top of the cut bank about 25 feet above me.


I had my .44 on my hip, so I drew it, and with a flashlight in my left hand, I fired one shot over the head of the bear. He didn't even blink, so I fired another shot into a pine tree next to him. Again, he just stood there clicking his teeth at me.


So I holstered my gun and I bent down and picked up a baseball size rock that I threw at and hit him. He then ran off into the darkness.


He was wearing a collar and ear tag, and we later found out that he had been a trouble bear near Cooke City where he had been trapped and then released in the area that we were hunting.


Last year, one of the guys that I used to work with was scouting for elk. He was carrying both his .44 revolver. He got attacked twice on one day by a grizzly.


Walking down a trail, he apparently got between a female grizzly and her cubs. He was able to get out his bear spray and spray her on the first attack. He then played dead and tried to protect his face when she attacked him. She then left him and followed her cubs into the forest.


Todd then was able to get up and continued down the trail to his pickup. Minutes later, a little farther down the trail, she attacked him again. This time he was out of bear spray and did not have enough time to get his gun out. She bit his arms, back, and head before she left him again.


Todd was then able to walk 3 miles down to his truck, make a video of himself, then drive himself to the hospital in Ennis where he underwent 8 hours of surgery.


Google "Todd Orr bear"

+1

I believe all of that to be true.

+

I also know that the Alaskan Aleut kill bears with a .22lr.

The FBI Tests/Tuller/21ft rule didn't prove the shooter is unable to draw and fire, it proved that even when struck, the death doesn't happen fast enough to prevent mortal injury from the blade-wielding assailant. In other words, outside of 21ft, there's one dead person, inside of 21ft, there are two.

But that's not really applicable for bear attack defense - as that study was considering known potential threats, effectively from a cold start. A charging bear isn't a cold start - most often it's moving at high speed before the shooter even knows it's there, and of course, it IS faster than a human.

I can say, the 21ft rule is ABSOLUTEY IRRELEVANT for the overwhelming majority of our population. I do a drill in my defensive handgun courses in which I pick out one of the students which everyone recognizes as a bit more skilled with a handgun, AND a student who is admittedly brand spanking new. I use two blue (non-functional) guns, and have them demonstrate a dynamic draw, side by side, on the clock. Despite a considerable gap in shooting skill, I have yet to see a significant gap in shot time - both of which usually end up more than 2 seconds. We hear folks talk about 1-1.5second times to first shot, but outside of competitors, I have never found that to be realistic, even for officers. And that's coming from a ready signal where these shooters KNOW there is a beep coming and the next action they take is a draw stroke. That's NOT the same as a surprise stimulus where the shooter has to react to what might be a squirrel breaking a small limb out of a tree, or might be an 800lb sow bearing down on them.

I have every confidence a .454c will stop a bear as fast as anything out there, but I can also say, despite having what I expect is a much greater experience and skill in shooting heavy revolvers than the average handgunner, I don't expect to draw and drop a bear in one shot.

What I HAVE always wondered, after spending so many years of my life as a bull rider and bull fighter, why give the bear a static target? I was somewhat confirmed in this thinking after watching a video of instructor zero and Doug mercaida, testing the 21ft rule. Zero could easily put shots on Doug if he took an evasive move first instead of drawing to shoot. How do you avoid being hit by a train? Get the F out of the way. If you need to kill the train after you avoid death, then take the time to do so. So that's how I train with my bear defense revolver and rifle... I move first, then ready to shoot.

Whatever one chooses to carry you have to hit something like this but probably not in such a smooth open area......

http://mashable.com/2017/05/24/hunte.../#qqzYeVLhLOql

Agreed! This subject is oft-debated and there are no solid, 100%-right-everytime answers. As for me, based on my experience with hogs and my .454, I'd rather use pepper spray because a yard-wide cloud of irritating spray has a better chance of keeping my hide unscathed than relying on a precise, CNS hit on a rapidly approaching bear. (Studies have borne that out, although exceptions are many.)


Of course, if your pistol skills are at the Clint Eastwood/John Wayne/Jerry Miculek level, pack a hogleg. :)

Personally if all I have is a pistol I'd want something with a reasonable follow up shot. It is bound to be a compromise between power and recoil. And what I was taught is two hits from a 9 MM dumps more energy into whatever you are shooting at and has more punch than one hit from a 44 magnum. Don't really know if it is fact or not, but the way I was taught, double tap.

Better yet is a long gun with a quick second shot. I feel comfortable with my slug gun, semi auto. Semi auto has less recoil, quicker second shot. If it isn't in my hands it is front slung, takes about the same time to get it into action as my pistol draw does. And I've picked off so many Jack Rabbits with it I'm likely to instinctively hit what I'm shooting at within reasonable distance. The pucker factor is going to be high, but muscle memory will likely see me through.

Searching for large wounded Hogs I use my slug gun with a bayonet. Ten inches of razor sharp knife may not stop one, but is likely to get it's attention. A slug torso hit will definitely get their attention.

I've never hunted Bear, but have had a 350+ size Hog come right at me. That hog covered, best estimate, a hundred feet in 2 seconds. I decided that night that a bolt action rifle wasn't my best option in a similar situation. Pistol was unlikely to hit at any distance and a second shot would be iffy. I'm a decent pistol shot, but rushing it, around 75 feet is my limit while retaining accuracy. Getting off a second shot with a large bore (magnum) pistol and theoretically that Bear or Hog can cover another 50-100 feet before you can fire again. A semi auto shotgun is a lot quicker follow up shot than a magnum pistol IMO.

He'll No.
 

Will it kill a grizzly? Of course. But, will it kill it before it kills you should be the question.
That 12 gauge with GOOD slugs is your only hope. Many years ago an article was published in ALASKA MAGAZINE, the author (a registered guide) from Fairbanks and another guide from Kodiak were hunting on Kodiak. A bear came for them and got two 500 gr .458 slugs into him. It still managed to go from 50 feet to 10 feet before it expired. Will any hand gun kill a bear? Wrong question. Will it STOP the bear! Big difference!

From what I gather about a grizzly charge, is you'll be lucky to get off 1 or 2 shots at said grizzly.

also a faster follow up shot might be a good thing, ie. 44mag > 454, 480, 500 etc...

I went with a 5 shot 44 mag taurus tracker, although I'm not sure the 41mag may have 6 shots vs. 5.

I other round I have thought about is the 10mm, but then you're talking about having the ability to take more shots.

I think maybe 1 of you has the 44mag and your buddy has the 10mm. ha.

Yes indeed.

Most people fail to realize they are able to pursue force-on-force training at low cost. A guy can either put in for simunitions, or a lot more cheaply, use an air soft pistol/revolver.

So, grab a buddy, start at rest, and have him rush you from 20-30yrds. Best if done in thick enough cover where he can be concealed. Another option, start blindfolded, remove the fold at the beep - and they get to run in on the same cue.

You'll be amazed how difficult it is to hit a rushing target, and then equally amazed how quickly you can learn to engage a rushing target effectively. Recoil management then becomes the priority in training.

I'll go look around a bit, but I recently saw a video of Max Prasac shooting a 454c, wanna say it was even a single action, for 5 shots on target in 3 seconds. Their test was in response to a claim by another gun writer who had claimed the ability to do so. Multiple testers succeeded or nearly succeeded.

That's not to say any joe blow who hasn't put more than 5 rounds at a time through his super magnum revolver can replicate these results, but fast, on target shooting of a super magnum revolver is within reach of a trained and practiced handgunner.

I live by this general expectation: If I can do it, almost anyone can do it, and a lot of folks can do it a lot better.