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Military Rifles for Recreational Use
Military Rifles for Recreational Use By Chuck Hawks Introduction I should make it clear from the outset that I am neither an expert in the field nor a particular fan of military rifles. What appeals to me is a nicely figured walnut stock of slender and elegant contour, precisely cut checkering, and highly polished finishes on both wood and metal. I insist that all of my rifles be scoped because I prefer to hit what I shoot at, and I want the scope mounted low and over the bore. These features are not typical of any military rifle I have ever seen, and the only military rifle in its original condition I have ever owned is a Swedish Mauser Model 1896. I once owned a sporting rifle based on a British Lee-Enfield SMLE action, but all that was left of the original military rifle was the action itself. The action had been polished, blued, re-barreled, and re-stocked in black walnut. It looked and handled like a civilian hunting rifle, which was what I wanted. Unmodified late 19th and early 20th Century infantry rifles generally have unreasonably long barrels for hunting purposes, which makes them slow and awkward in the field. Since the end of the Second World War a great many surplus military rifles have been imported and sold in the United States. Among the best known of these (there have been many others) are the Argentine Mauser Model 1891 (7.65x53); British SMLE Lee-Enfield rifle and Jungle Carbine (.303 British); German Mauser Model 1898 (8x57JS); Italian Carcano Model 1891 (6.5x52); Japanese Arisaka Type 38 (6.5x50) and Type 99 (7.7mm Japanese); Russian Mosin-Nagant Model 1891 (7.62x54R); Spanish Mauser Model 1893 and Model 1895 (7x57); Swedish Mauser Model 1894, Model 1896 and Model 36 (6.5x55); Swiss Schmidt-Rubin Models 1889, 1896, 1896/11, and 31 (7.5mm Swiss); U.S. Model 1892 Krag (.30-40 Krag), Model 1903 Springfield (.30-06), and Model 1917 Enfield (.30-06); and the U.S. M1 Carbine (.30 Carbine). All of these except the U.S. M1 Carbine (an autoloader) are bolt action rifles. The supply of most of these rifles has long since dried up, but they are still seen on the used market. And a few models are still being imported as various militaries around the world, particularly in the smaller nations, clean out their reserve stocks of obsolete rifles. That list of military rifles, attenuated though it is, is far too long to allow me to cover them all, even briefly. But I will comment on a few of the models I feel are most suitable for the recreational shooter. Mauser Model 98 I think that the best military action of them all (for sporting purposes) is the German Model 98 Mauser. This action has formed the basis of a great many custom built sporting rifles. It is one of the best bolt actions ever designed, and it heavily influenced the design of all subsequent bolt action rifles. Most "improvements" on the Model 98 design are in fact attempts to cut production costs--the Mauser 98 is an expensive action to manufacture. German wartime production (both First and Second World Wars) was good at the beginning, but degraded as the war went on. Actions made late in either war are liable to be poorly heat treated and thus soft and unsuitable for sporting purposes. Peacetime production was uniformly good. In Germany, Model 98 rifles were produced by Mauser, Kreighof, and Simson as well as by government arsenals. Model 98's were also turned out in Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Mexico, Poland, and perhaps other places. The Mauser 98 is a better action than most modified Model 98 actions. The latter include the American 1903 Springfield, the 1917 Enfield, and the immensely strong Japanese Arisakas. The Model 98 locks at the front of the bolt by means of two large locking lugs, and ****s on opening. It handles escaping gas from a burst case better than the other military actions. It has a strong, one-piece firing pin. Its safety lug is small and strong. It is located forward of the bolt handle, and turns down into a recess in the receiver. It is a controlled feed action with a full-length extractor that takes a very large bite on the rim on the case. The ejector is fixed and mounted in the receiver. All of these features have been widely copied in subsequent actions, both military and civilian, but seldom are they all present in one action. A good, sound Model 98 military rifle is well worth having, and worth spending money on to have it converted into a custom sporter. German Model 98's are normally chambered for the 8x57JS, a classic big game cartridge on the order of the .308 Winchester. The military "S" load drove a 154 grain FMJ spitzer bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2880 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 2835 ft. lbs. With proper bullets there are not many animals it can not take. 1903 Springfield The U.S. 1903A3 Springfield is also a decent action and it is adaptable to sporting purposes. The military stock has such a short length of pull that few adult shooters can comfortably use it well. A 1903 Springfield rifle almost begs to be re-stocked before it can be used for recreational shooting. In a pinch, a thick slip-on recoil pad can help extend the length of pull. The action is a modified Mauser 98, modified in an attempt by the U. S. government to avoid paying Mauser royalties. Almost all of the modifications were retrograde, and in any case the ploy failed. Mauser took the U. S. Government to court and won. The Springfield uses a two-piece firing pin that is liable to breakage, a unnecessarily large safety lug on the bolt, a coned breech that leaves part of the head of the case unsupported, and it does not handle escaping gas nearly as well as a Mauser 98. Many fine custom built hunting rifles have been based on the '03 Springfield action, particularly between the world wars, and if you find a nickel steel or double heat treated Springfield action in good condition it can serve as the basis for a fine custom sporter. Such an action was used as the basis for the American Custom Gunmakers Guild's 1903 Springfield 100th Anniversary presentation rifle, which is as elegant and beautiful a custom sporter as you can imagine. The .30-06 cartridge, for which the '03 Springfield rifle is chambered, is the most popular all-around big game cartridge in the world. It is the largest and potentially the most powerful of the 20th Century infantry rifle cartridges and served the United States through both World Wars and the Korean War. The American M2 service load drove a 150 grain FMJ spitzer bullet at a MV of 2740 fps and ME of 2500 ft. lbs. Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine The neatest surplus rifle for use "as is" for big game hunting is probably the British Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine. It is no longer available as surplus, as far as I know, but it has become are so popular that new rifles of the type have been made to fill the demand. The Gibbs Rifle Company offers the Quest II Extreme Carbine, a newly manufactured Jungle Carbine clone in .308 Winchester caliber. The original Lee-Enfield Jungle carbine is a shortened version of the standard SMLE infantry rifle, and was chambered for the .303 British round. These weighed about 8 pounds, came with a short 20 inch barrel, and had an overall length of about 40 inches. They were handy and hard hitting carbines. If I had to take a stock military rifle deer hunting, this would be the one I would choose. The .303 British Mk. VII load drove a 174 grain spitzer bullet at a MV of 2440 fps and ME of 2319 ft. lbs. The .303 British has proven itself a fine big game cartridge all over the world with appropriate (expanding) bullets. Do not use military FMJ ammunition for hunting. More here: http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com/topic/17698 |
I have two....
One is a WWII era Springfield M1 Garand that I purchased a few years ago. Second is a 6.5 Japanese Arisaka Carbine that my step-grandfather brought back from the war. Has all matching serial numbers, and the mum is completely intact. |
I'd have to say that I'm partial to my Swede's
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I have three mosin's. Mostly cuz they were cheap, but I fell in love with them.
Also got an old Mauser that I won't shoot anymore. Getting old and I like it too much. |
Originally Posted by elgallo114
(Post 3402711)
I have three mosin's. Mostly cuz they were cheap, but I fell in love with them.
Also got an old Mauser that I won't shoot anymore. Getting old and I like it too much. |
I've had two ChiCom Mosin/Nagant rifles (a rifle and a carbine), two ChiCom SKS's, and a Soviet SVT 40. Of the three, the only one I really had any fondness for was the SVT-40. Both Mosins were not particularly accurate 4-6 MOA typically, and with the straight bolt handle, they don't accommodate sporterizing very well, though it can be done. The SKS's were also very inaccurate, with one shooting at best 6 MOA, and one that couldn't keep 10 of 10 shots on a large pizza box at 100 yards. The latter had a crookedly mounted front sight post, so even with the front sight drifted as far right as possible, it still shot roughly 6" right at 100 yards, requiring "Kentucky windage" to compensate. I wouldn't consider any of them particularly well suited to hunting, but they were fun guns to shoot, and (at the time at least) dirt cheap to buy and shoot.
The SVT-40 was a whole different animal. It was well made, fairly accurate for a semi-auto shooting about 2-3 MOA if I really focused on trigger control (the trigger was a typical eastern-bloc semi-auto trigger, long and heavy, though not gritty like my SKS's triggers). It would have made a good short range hunting rifle provided you can shoot with the crappy Soviet battle sights, but it was very long and heavy, and it had a muzzlebrake, which made it EXTREMELY LOUD. I made the mistake of shooting it once without hearing protection, and my ears rang for hours. The only problem I had with it was that it'd tend to slamfire with anything other than Soviet milsurp ammo because of the rather heavy floating firing pin. It also had a fluted chamber, making reloading for it not practical or maybe not even possible. I do regret selling it as I bought it for a little over $100 in the early '90's (pre-Slick Willie), I sold it to a C&R collector in 2001 or 2002 for a little under $500, and now they can bring in almost $1000 in the condition mine was in (which was 95+). If you like your Mosin, it's acceptably accurate (which some are, depending on where/when they were made), and you want to hunt with it, there's not reason not to. The 7.62x54R is more than powerful enough to hunt elk with. I, personally, have been long over my Com-Bloc surplus rifle days. Now I prefer a rifle that will shoot 5 shots into a quarter at 100 yards over banging away with a milsurp rifle and not really hitting anything. Mike |
I shoot my Mosin 91 with Iron sights and at 100 yards, my groupings are almost all in the black. My jungle carbine is even more accurate. One of these days I may scope one. I have a Yugo Mauser and that thing sprays bullets like a shotgun sprays shot. It is terrible. I think it all depends on the soundness of the barrel you get.
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Originally Posted by Junglecarbin
(Post 3402793)
My Mosin 91 is a great rifle and is dead on. Unfortunately the bolt action is quite sticky. I am not sure if it is the surplus ammo I shoot or the rifle itself. My Mosin 44 was unissued and remains unsued.
What you need to do is take the bolt down completely and clean the heck out of it. They were packed in cosmoline for so long (I guess) that it got way down into the cracks and crevices of the bolt. Caused it to stick. At least that's my impression and I've heard others do the same. After I did that, used gun grease in and on it and had no problems. Probably shot four or five hundreds rounds before cleaning to see if it would do it again. Never did. As for accuracy, I might have gotten lucky, but I get 4 inchers or better at 100 yds. Offhand. That's about as good as you're gonna get from a Mosin. Viced, I get 2 or 2.5 inch groups. That's good enough for me to trust it hunting. Never shoot past 150 yds usually anyway. Best part about them is the price of ammo. It's gone up a little, but still well below any others. Only downside is they don't, and probably never will, make copper ammo for it. Not as far as I know. If there is, I'd love to know. I can't use lead ammo in some of the areas I hunt. Guess I could load my own, just gotta find dies for it. |
Thanks for the tip, I could imagine how comso would get in the way if not properly removed.
I actually have a lot of experience with C & R rifles (have a 03 FFL). Whenever you get a C & R rifle, it is best to break it down to its parts and soak the metal ones in boiling water with a good amount of Dawn detergent in it. That will remove the cosmo. My Mosin went through the process and has no cosmo left in it. I suspect it is the surplus ammo I am using (it has painted casings). One of these days I may buy some new production ammo and try it out. |
I love my 6.5 Swede. It is very accurate and easy to handle. Low recoil and did I mention accurate? Mine isn't the real long sniper version though, its the shorter more civilian version. (Still learning about the different types). All the #'s match and its in excellent condition.
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i shoot my mosin nagent 91/30 all the time, even more now that i reload for it. bought it at dunhams for 79.99, all the numbers match and its a 1944. factory corrosive fmj rounds kick like a mule.
im gonna try it out once this year on deer just to give the old girl another chance to kill, haha. |
Originally Posted by TUK101
(Post 3410748)
I love my 6.5 Swede. It is very accurate and easy to handle. Low recoil and did I mention accurate? Mine isn't the real long sniper version though, its the shorter more civilian version. (Still learning about the different types). All the #'s match and its in excellent condition.
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Originally Posted by bltrax
(Post 3412160)
i shoot my mosin nagent 91/30 all the time, even more now that i reload for it. bought it at dunhams for 79.99, all the numbers match and its a 1944. factory corrosive fmj rounds kick like a mule.
im gonna try it out once this year on deer just to give the old girl another chance to kill, haha. |
Originally Posted by Junglecarbin
(Post 3416687)
Accuracy is quite hit or miss out there. However, there are some that are real tack drivers.
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Got an M1 Garand and a 1903 Springfield. My 1931 '03 has a 1944 barrel on it and looks like it hasn't been fired since the re-barreling. Would like to get a Mosin just 'cause they're cheap.
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IM IN LOVE WITH ar'S / 223 VERY ACCURATE!
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I have two mosins. both 1936's and also a nagant pistol, also a 1936. I like them. will be buying some mausers soon too.
-Jake |
I would like an AR too, but there's just not the history behind them that you get with the older rifles. I think the days of history where nation warred against nation for control of territory are largely passed. Maybe not, but ARs won't ever have the historical association of a WWI or WWII, nor will we be able to own the actual rifles, only semi-automatic versions of the real ones.
Garands, Springfields and Mosins are the very ones used by the folks who played a role in history and one can dreams of the stories your rifle could tell you if it could. For ARs, all you get is one somewhat like a "real" one (M-16/M4). Just perspective from a history nut. |
you can own automatic ars? you can own ANYTHING? AUTO JUST DO THE PAPERWORK? AND BUY THE TAX STAMP.
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Model 96 Swedish Mauser..in all its glory and 29" barrel. Mine was a gunshow find for less than $100. The shorter ones were Model 38 s I believe.
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Originally Posted by boilermaker85
(Post 3442765)
you can own automatic ars? you can own ANYTHING? AUTO JUST DO THE PAPERWORK? AND BUY THE TAX STAMP.
I would rather direct my gun money elsewhere. To each his own, however. |
I have two Springfields deriving from the 1903(A3) rifle. One is a .30-06 which has been restocked by my father, probably with some other modifications such as bluing the barrel and, importantly, changing the bold handle to allow use with a telescopic sight. The other is a .25-06 with a medium weight 24" barrel restocked by my father. Both rifles have a 15.5" length of pull, which suits my 6' 2" frame very well. Both rifles shoot quite accurately, probably more accurately than I can shoot them -- 1" groups for the .30-06 and 1.25" for the .25-06 (these groups also seem to be sensitive to the specific commercial loads that I shoot -- maybe other commercial loads or handloads tuned to each rifle would improve accuracy). The .30-06 has part of the forward iron sight still in place: the blade with the bead has been removed, but the heavier component that attaches to the barrel and formerly held the blade remains. This is a little unsightly (pun intended!) and the sight picture through the scope shows this as a blur, but is not a practical problem. I talked to a gun smith about removing, and basically the appropriate fix would be to chop off about an inch of barrel and recrown. Because the gun does shoot well, and I'm not keen about losing barrel length, I've never moved forwards with this modification. Maybe I still will do this some day. The barrel now is about 24". I suppose most would say that the performance decrease of the .30-06 in a 23" barrel versus a 24" barrel is negligible, but I'm just not sufficiently motivated to get this modification done.
Having said all that, I love both rifles. They are handsome solid pieces to carry in the woods and hunt with. I plan to use the .30-06 on my second elk hunt in about 3 weeks in SW Colorado. |
Just saw this thread. Military rifles for REC. Yep! it works for me.
I started with a 1903 Springfield. Over the years I picked up a SMLE - gave it to my son. There's a Swiss K31, a Moisin-Nagant rifle, an M1 Carbine, a Martini-Henry Longlever, an original Trapdoor Carbine, a Martini-Cadet .310. The big hole for me is that there is no M1 Garand....yet. Pete |
i have a moisn i put a sin stock on it and love it
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Originally Posted by elgallo114
(Post 3402711)
I have three mosin's. Mostly cuz they were cheap, but I fell in love with them.
Also got an old Mauser that I won't shoot anymore. Getting old and I like it too much. |
Working on sporterizing and modernizing an SMLE for my girlfriend then maybe a Mosin for myself.
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1 Attachment(s)
I took my first deer with an as-issued '03A1 Springfield. Most of my cousins use WWII mausers.I am really fond of the k31 Swiss. It's a great south-paw friendly bolt. I recently took this crop damage tag doe at 220 yd.'s with a 150 gr. Sierra game king hand load. DRT Attachment 10259
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i have a old m1 carbine that I love... belonged to my grandfather, and was used extensively by my father to feed their family on arkansas deer... I'm hoping to get one this year with it...
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I have hunted with most of the rifles listed. I would say the best one to use either as original or modified is a 6.5 Arisaka carbine. Once you get used to the safety, it is really fast. All the other rifles have uncomfortable safeties to use when hunting. It is easy to put a scope on the 6.5 as you can bend the bolt enough to clear the scope and still use the original safety. It is one of the lightest rifles, even the 7.7 model is fairly light in original condition.
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Just an opinion, it's tough to beat a 7.5x55 Swiss.
Though never really considered the safety aspect as the above poster mentions. I guess I don't much hunt with a safety so it's a non-issue for me. Has anyone ever heard of building a custom out of a Swiss action? Tom |
I've got a few Swede's, 2 in military config (1 long, one short), and 3 in sporter condition, 1 Turkish 98 Mauser original, 1 Hungarian Steyr in 8X56R original (straight pull bolt), 1 long Moisin Nagant original, 1 British Enfield in .308 (yes, .308, it's an Indian variant), a couple SKS's, 1 chopped up Japanese 44 carbine in 6.5, and a few WW2 era Makarov's. All in working order.
My dad's collection is very extensive, and some of those will find their way into my gun lockers, some into my 2 brothers'. My favorite would have to be the Swede's, mostly because of the round itself (6.5 X 55) and the quality of the actions and barrels on the surplus guns I've acquired. |
I love hunting with old military surplus rifles. Killed the hog below with a Finnish M-28 version of a Mosin Nagant. Anytime you think Mosin Nagant rifles aren't that accurate, get your hands on one of the Finnish variants and hit the range. Vastly superior to the Russian versions.
 Here is my M-39 Finnish Mosin Nagant. As you can see the Finns also used a much higher grade of wood stock in their Mosins as well.  |
That Mosin Nagant M-39 is pretty sweet looking. I like using my German Mauser small ring 98 8mm. I am anxious to take a bear with it. Thinking about getting into reloading so I can load some 8mm Ballistic tips.
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Originally Posted by statjunk
(Post 3644772)
Just an opinion, it's tough to beat a 7.5x55 Swiss.
Though never really considered the safety aspect as the above poster mentions. I guess I don't much hunt with a safety so it's a non-issue for me. Has anyone ever heard of building a custom out of a Swiss action? Tom As far as a custom rifles on a Swiss action, Apparently, that if you're going to have some caliber other than the original and because of the complicated machining involved, the original barrel is left in the action. It's cut off and used as a sleeve to thread the custom barrel into. 308 is a common custom caliber, but in my opinion no better than the 7.5x55. I've also read about 30-06 and 300 win. mag. being used. |
Wingbone
I saw a guy walking on the mountain with a MAS 36 during deer season. I didn't get to talk to him but was kind of curious about the safety because they never had one. He was off a ways but the bolt looked closed.
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