Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

What do you think has the most penetration capability.. A few years ago we did a lot of shooting a 3/4" piece of steel with just about every popular caliber/bullet comparison. Only 1 bullet actually went thru the steel.. What do you think it was??

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Very interesting, I have no clue but would like to know.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

One kind of bullet or only one caliber of bullet went through the steel?

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Only 1 caliber actually went thru.. One almost made it the rest were mere "also shots" Calibers include

220 swift
22-250
243
6mm
270
308

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Well besides what caliber you were shooting we will also need ot know the bullets and weights used for this experiment. You could have been shooting a 308 with varmint bullets and a 243 with FMJ. So i would expect the 243 to go through if that was the case. Also what is the 6mm?

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

It wasn't a scientiffic experiment. :D Just tyingdifferent whitetail loads that we were sighting in.. So no FMJ.. And this was about 20 years ago and all factory ammo so it wasn't near the amount of choices we have today..

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

I bet a dime a 308 w/ 165gr AP went through. :D

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Sorry. Bullet weights of the22 Cals were around the 50 Grain weight, 24 Cals were 80-100 and the 270-308 were 150-180 weights.. Again nothing fancy just factory ammo..

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Let me add a little more insight.. I wasn't as impressed with whichcaliber that went thru as I was impressed with theWAY it went thru the piece of steel..

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Oh yeah.. And there were other calibers... But these are the ones that I know were shot and witnessed..

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Well, I will make a guess....the 22-250????

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IM going to say the 270.

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I'm going to pick one of the .22 caliber choices. It could go either way based on bullet weight, construction, and velocity at impact.

I am going to say that for the same reason tornadoes or certain other strong winds can drive pieces of straw into telephone poles. In layman's terms, when the phone pole is pushed on by the straw, it attempts to push back. The straw simply pushes too suddenly against the phone pole to for it to "push back", so it penetrates.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

220 Swift?

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My choice would be 6 mm being very close to the 6.5 for deep penetration...:eek:

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

The 220 swift was the only one to go all the way thru... In fact it was going so fast when it went thru that both the front and back of the steel was peeled back as though it had exited both sides. It was amazing.. Any guess on which one "Almost went thru"

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Dangit I was just going to post the 220 Swift as my guess but you already posted the answer. I talked to the guy at the rifle range here one time and he said by far the most damaging cartridges for the metal silhouette targets were the high velocity .22's and other similar cartidges (like 6mm's pushing light bullets at high speed).

My guess for the second part is the 22-250.

I think bullet construction should be mentioned in this post, though, since you are talking about penetration. I'd bet all of the cartidges would have punched through your metal plate if you had chosen a bullet constructed to penetrate deeper than simple soft points.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

If you want to know what they will do to muscle and bone, kill 5-6 deer with each....

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.458 Lott w/ solids ? I bet this would go through 3/4" of steel.

.375 H&H w/ 300gr solids....?

my .340 wby with cheap/soft bullets went through 1/4" of steel, then 3-4" of timber, then through another 1/4" of steel.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

what calibers/ bullets were tested?

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I'd like to know exactly what bullet was loaded into the 220 swift in order for it to penetrate 3/4" steel plate. I don't mean to be the pessemist but I have a hard time believing that a lead .22 caliber "hunting" bullet penetrated 3/4" steel plate regardless of how fast it was traveling.

A .308 AP will berely penetrate that much steel and not always and evenlead 50 bmg bulletswon't likely penetrate 3/4" steel plate unless you are at point blank range.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

I already knew it was going to be the ,220 swift. I have seen tests on this before.
I read a .220 swift will not exit an empty beer can at 10 ft but will pentrate 1/2" steel at the same distance. Try it and see. the can just blows up but no exit. thats what I read anyways

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

That's just crazy

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Well, before I look at your results, I will guess it was either the .220 Swift or the .22/250. This guess is based on the results of similar tests run by people like Phil Sharpe, Townsend Whelen, and Harvey Donaldsonwhen they were developing .22-cal. varmint rifles back in the 1930's..... The HV .22 bullets, regardless of type, would often blow hens-egg sized holes through steel plate that even a .30/'06 AP round only made a smear on....

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Toro Grande, I refer you to Phil Sharpe's COMPLETE GUIDE TO HANDLOADING, if you want to know more about this! The type of bullet MAKES NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL if it is moving fast enough when it hits the steel plate. It doesn't PENETRATE, it blasts a hole all the way through the plate. The .220 Swift's bullets can be driven that fast. I suspect you could get the same, or similar results from the .22/250 as well.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

You are correct. It just blast a whole thru the steel.. I you have ever shot a 22 Lr at a tin can and saw the back side of the can you can envision what a 220 swift does to a piece of steel.. The most amazing part is the steel is peeled back on both the back side and the front side.. I am not sure what bullet type we were using but I know the ballistics said it was running about 4100FPS.. So it was either a 40 or 50 grain bullet..



Now for the one that Almost made it thru..











It was the 308.. It left a big buldge on the backside of the steel..

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

wow......pretty neat!

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That's just crazy. I would never envision a 22 bullet blowing through 3/4" steel plate.

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You know what they say.. Speed kills.. :D

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

I've run similar tests trying to shoot different guns through different things and the high speed .22 bore wins pretty easily. The reason makes sense when you think about it. You have all the energy concentrated on such a small spot that it just cuts right through. I will say I think the bit about blowing a hen's egg sized hole is BS. What you get is a .224 diameter hole that looks dang near like someone took a drill bit to it.

Any notion a 220 Swift won't go through an empty beer can is laughable...unless my brother's 220 Swift was defective and didn't know any better.;) Truth was there wasn't much that swift wouldn't go through. A chunk of wood would give it more trouble than steel.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

I found this to be true many years ago, when i was doing a lot of bullet testing...

When it came to bigger calibers, the ones that did the most damage (even in T1 steel) were the higher velocity rounds with NP's loaded in them!

DM

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

The only thing I can figure is that friction has something to do with it. That fast bullet must hit with such force that melts of softens the steel much as a shaped charge would do.

That... or perhaps its just like trying to throw a pencil through a sheet of notebook paper... have someone hold just the top, and the pencil will fall to the floor... the paper gives way... have someone hold the top and the bottom... pencil will go through even sideways.... the tighter you pull the paper... the easier it is for the pencil to make it through.

So it may be with steel and fast bullets.... steel has a great resistance, but when it comes to a certain point with speedy bullets, the tougher the target and the more the resistance... the better they work.

But looking at it as such... its a great varmint round, but don't expect it to work that way on bigger game... whitetail size and up.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

I think it's all about velocity and frontal area...

Ever see some of the things a tornado can do? It can drive a piece of straw right through cement ect...

DM

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

I am going to guess the 220 swift, or the 22-250 I have seen a sheet of steel that was shot through with .223


Just my GUESS

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Two things factor into this equation .....
Sectional density of the bullet and velocity..Not bullet weight and velocity..
Smaller cal bullets of the same weight and construction have a higher sectional density than the bigger calbullets .Ultimately, bullets,with highersectional denisty,will hold together better, and penatrate deeper....
But of course for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...For the 220 swifts, light bullets(small Sectional denisty) bullets are well known tobreak apartin mid flight when you push them too fast..
You can try and make a 50 gr. 30cal bullet or .270
bullet, but we all know whats gonna happen, in order for these two bullets to weigh 50gr, the wall jacket will be so thin (with probably no lead ion the middleresulting invertually no sectional denisty) will desintigrate as soon as you pull the trigger...
And if ya tried to fire a 130 or 150 gr 165gr.(very, very high sectional denisty). .22cal bullet out of a .22 cal firearm, your gun would probably blow up due to excesive pressure.....
So ya, having a high sectional density and high velocity, I could see it going through..
But I could also see anycaliber gun,withthe same velocity as a .220 Swift(you'll need an Ultra mag) shooting the same sectional denisty bullet as the one that was used on the .220 swift, going through that 3/4 steel....
But it nice not to have that recoil :D
Good Job......

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Jeff, I've shot several 1,000 rounds through a .220 Swift and a .22/250 and generally I was pushing them for all the velocity I could squeek out of them. I NEVER had a bullet blow up in flight. I think you've been reading gun magazine stories by people who don't know what they are talking about. On the other hand, I have seen such bullets blow up on impact with some obstruction in their flight. I've shot at long range varmints only to see my bullet clip a mesquite branch near the target and explode in a gray puff. But they don't just fly apart on their own that I've ever seen.

To talk about penetration, perhaps we should consider what out tanks and other tank killer guns shoot today. Tanks shoot the small sabot round of very dense, very small diameter projectile going very fast. It's basically a giant .220 Swift and the sabot goes thru enemy armor like it's hot butter. If that doesn't work they can change to the shaped "HEAT" charge which burns it's way inside the tank.

There's no mystery here. Small size and lots of speed applied to very small area is what drills steel. Where 30 caliber AP ammo will impress you is when it's shot into something like a tree or sand. You'll dig a hole a couple feet deep to find an AP shot into sand.[:-]

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Light, Fast and Devastating By Russell Thornberry


"Battlin’ Bullets - The perennial campfire debate continues. Which hunting projectile is best? Light and fast, or heavy and slow?

P.O. Ackley, the godfather of American ballisticians, forgot more than most of us will ever know about bullet performance. Many years ago, I read his double volume “Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders.” When I turned to his chapter entitled “Killing Power” in Volume I, I fully expected a treatise on why .50-caliber bullets are more deadly than .49-caliber bullets. However, I was amazed to fine something different - something that Ackley called “shockdown power” rather than “knockdown power.”

His premise is simply that the more speed increases, the more shock increases. And when speed passes the threshold of 4,000 feet per second, a whole new dynamic is created - one that cannot be equaled with lesser speed, no matter how large the bullet.
His classic test, which proved his point, was conducted by shooting bullets into ½-inch-thick steel-armor plate from the frontal area of a U.S. military half-track. At a distance of 30 feet, he shot a .270 Win with 100-grain bullets, a .30-06 with military-issue, solid-steel, armor-piercing bullets, and a .220 Swift with a 48-grain bullet.
The results were astounding. The .270 bullet left a shiny spot on the armor plate and did not penetrate at all. Two shots from the .30-06 armor-piercing bullets left shallow craters .070 and .098 inch respectively.

The little .220 Swift bullets consistently burned 3/8-inch diameter holes completely through the ½-inch armor.

The results spoke for themselves. Crossing the threshold of hypervelocity created a dynamic as a result of shock that cannot be achieved any other way.

Ackley’s test was done on armor plate, but how does that translate to performance on the flesh and bone of wild animals? Ackley went on to say that if he had to pick only one rifle for hunting North American game, it would be a .220 Swift.

If, in Ackley’s day, he had had access to the slower-burning powders of today, he would have been able to propel even larger-diameter bullets at “hyperspeed” - bullets traveling 4,000 or more feet per second at the muzzle. I speculate that he would have chosen a larger-caliber, heavier bullet capable of hyperspeed for his choice North American game rifle."

The above brief quoteis exerpted from anarticle appearingin the October 2005 Buckmasters Gun Hunter,reprinted by Barnes Bullets with the author’s permission.

In addition to his penetration tests on steel plate, Ackley cited the results of the use of a .30/'06, a .220 Swift, and an 8X57mm Mauser on wild burros. The .220 Swift made more consistent 1-shot kills on these big, tough "varmints" than either of the larger-caliber rifles which used standard big-game hunting ammunition. (See P 79 of Ackley's handbook for Shooeters and Reloaders, V I. The burros averaged about 600 pounds-probably as tough as an average-sizebull elk.)

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

I'm not so sure about this mythical 4,000 fps, although there is no one whose opinion I respect more on all things firearm related than P.O. Ackley. The fact is a fast moving .224 caliber bullet is wicked good at penetrating metal. A bullet going 3,500 fps, for example, won't do as good as one going 4,000 fps...but it WILL penetrate a hell of a lot. And so on down the line. As I say, I don't think there is any magic velocity and I've spent a lifetime trying to shoot holes in crazy things.

But before anyone gets the idea a very fast .224 bullet will shoot through anything, let me hasten to say it's not so. There is a big difference between setting up various types of steel plate and shooting it head on with different projectiles than what happens in the real world. A very fast .224 bullet is capable of tremendous penetration...but only once. After the bullet has penetrated the initial object, there is usually nothing left of it, i.e. it comes apart.

The best way to get some real world appreciation of what works and what doesn't may be to find an abandoned old car. These make wonderful "targets" for the curious. Here a hot .22 rifle is only fair at going completely through the car body side to side. Most times it will penetrate side A and blow up so there is little or nothing to penetrate side B. More conventional high powered rifles like .308 or 30/06 do better at the thru and thru penetrations but still hardly any guarantee. Frequently their bullets will hit something and get deflected. A .30 caliber bullet is about as likely to exit the roof of floor as the opposite side of the car. Tests have shown that about the only things that will reliably punch in one side and out the other are the 50BMG and believe it or not a 12 ga slug.

Keep in mind this is not a pure AP test but more of a "real world" test of what goes through what and how. A .220 swift may go through more plate steel but for general uses you'll be better off with a clip full of .308 AP for smoking people out of cars and houses and even woods.

This is a difficult subject to compare apples to apples.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

I can believe this. Velocity being the key, not necessarily caliber. From my own experience on 1/2" steel at 300 meters using a 30-06 versus a .300 RUM with same bullet (Nosler BT) the '06 left little more than a bullet smear, the .300 RUM left a 3/4" hole. Really opened my eyes on what the effect of 500 fps increase in velocity can have.

RE: Let's discuss Bullet Penetration
 

Exactly.