The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Often I come across threads speaking poorly of ballistic tips. Normally the thread goes something like "It didint penetrate" or "It exploded on contact" or something to that effect.

My limited experience with them goes like this......

Two years ago on the same hunting trip, my brother and I killed two deer the same day. I killed a doe which was shot at about 50 yds with a .308 150grain BT. Broadside shot bullet entered about three inches behind the shoulder exited the same opposite side. Entrance and exit hole were the same about the size of a dime. Both lungs were punctured and a piece of rib apparently sliced the trachea in half. She ran about 20 yards then expired.

My brother killed a buck about 200lbs on the hoof. Broadside shot with a 270 wsm BT behind the shoulder. 100 yard distance. Shot the deer again a little further back after it ran about 10 yards then stopped to look at him. Exits and entrance holes looked the same. Deer ran 100 yards before expiring. Minimal bleeding from both deer.

My experience with them (granted little) has been opposite of what I usually see written in the posts. These bullets seemed to not expand at all. I was hoping to hear from others who use them or have used them about there experiences on deer size game. I would still like to use them because they in that rifle are the most accurate but also want a bullet to perform reliably as well. Thanks.


Scott

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

I have killed roughly 40 head of game with ballistic tips.In all cases they expanded,and I have never had to rack any animal hit with a ballistic tip.However,judging entrance and exit holes can be misleading as bullets often leave a small entrance hole,expand and do a great deal of damage,shed some weight as well as diameter,then leave a small exit hole.This was very common when I used the partition.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Great bullet as long as you know which ones are intended for varmints and which are intended for big game. In all cases it helps to be smarter than the bullet.:D

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

If you are both using short mags that is the reason for no expansion. Remember you get what you ask for. A flat shooting bullet that is fast, oh wait I want expansion too!!! LOL

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

The real key here is what did the internal organs (lungs, heart, etc.) look like? I have seen the same kind of entrance and exit wounds on critters from deer, black bear and elk to moose caused by Nosler PARTITION bullets. However, internal damage was just amazing! One 300-pound bear I shot once with a 150-grain Nosler Partition bullet from a .270 WIN. had nothing remaining in front of the diaphragm but a bloody soup with pieces of lung tissue the size of a quarter floating in it. The entrance wound (just aft of the last rib on the left, quartering forward to right front) washard to find, and the bullet ended up under the skin on the right front paw after breaking his right front leg twice getting there.

The only deer I ever shot with a BT was with a 120-grain in 7X57mm. Made the worst mess of the front half of a deer I ever saw. Switched to 150-grainers, but never killed another deer with a BT.....

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

You can't be insinuating that the bullets were going too fast to expand?Does anyone still believe that myth?:D:D:D:D:D

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Love making lung soup!! :D

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Thanks for the replies. In both deer there was not much internal damage to speak of other than a small patch of busted ribs. There was some trauma to the lungs , like the redness (gelatin lookin stuff) that occurs, but not the soup as mentioned. I did not take into consideration the bullet losing mass and making a small exit hole as well. Just havent shot enough deer I guess. Thanks again for the replies and anyfuther info is greatly appreciated as well.

JamesB-- which BT's are intended for big game and which are intended for varmints??? I am guessing its related to caliber, but atwhich caliber and up due they thicken the jacket??

Scott

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

JMO

But an educated person a long time ago set me down and told me that Ballistic Tip Bullets are not intended for hunting.

Their main design was to be used for target practice only.

Most educated people would agree with me on this one.

The lead on the tip of the bullet, usually burns off while it travels through the air after it leaves the barrel.

Now the lead inside of the bullet is what is the greater part of the mass which makes up the main part of the weight of the bullet. The construction of the bullet - determines how much lead it can hold.

By knowing that, it would be determined that a bullet of the proper construction - made for the harvest of big game would be proportionally better than a bullet designed for target practice.

We did tests on Sierra boat tails in 150 / 165 / 180 gr in 30 caliber / .308 and found that they were poor compared to a 150 gr Hornady PSP bullet.

The weight retention of the boat tail bullet was not consistent compared to a spire point bullet - because the spire point bullet held the lead better and retained more of it's weight. Where as a lot of the Boat tail bullets fell apart when it struck a hard object - such as bone / trees / twigs etc...

Ballistic Tip Bullets should NOT be used for hunting purposes.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

http://huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2411340&mpage=2&key=

The doe halfway down page 2 is one that I took a couple weeks ago using a Hornady SST.... No need in explaining as the picture says enough...

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Then why do you suppose that Nosler,the company that sells the Ballistic tip,lists them as a hunting bullet?:DSo are the 40 or so head of big game that I have taken with the Nosler ballistic tip not really dead?

By the way,tell that supposedly educated person that told you such nonsense that he should get a refund on his education as it was obviously faulty.:D
Perhaps he should be sent back to his village to resume his former position as the village idiot.He is obviously qualified for the job.:D:D

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

WOW that is impressive. That doe has about the best evidence of a clean kill utilizing a heart/lung shot I have ever seen. That had to be over quick and in a hurry, what we all should be striving for. Thanks for the replies.

Scott

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Are you trying to say that the Nosler Ballistic Tip should not be used for hunting, or just polymer tipped bullets in general?

If the former is true, you would be partially correct. Some of the Nosler BT's are not designed for hunting (big game), as they are varmint bullets designed for instant fragmentation on impact. But many (most really) are designed for hunting deer sized game and up.

If you mean the latter, then I'd say you better tell all the bullet manufacturers that all the animals killed with SST, Interbond, Scirroco, Ballistic Tips, Accubonds, MRX, and others are not really dead, but simply waiting in animal limbo waiting for someone like you to come along and finish them off with a real "hunting bullet"![:'(][:-]:eek:

As far as the polymer tip burning off in flight...well, lets just say that that as only slightly more rediculous than the "it was going to fast to expand" fallacy. I've shot metal plates with polymer tipped bullets at ranges out to 300 yards, and the interesting thing is that as often as not you can see the smear of plastic where the tip hit the plate, indicating that it was still intact at impact.

Mike

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

This thread amazes me! LOL

Tell the many many, many, many, big deer I have shot with Ballistic Tips they aren't effective hunting rounds any different. :D

I've used 95gr BTs out of my 243 up to 140gr BTs out of my 7mm Mag, to 150gr BTs out of my 308, 30-06, and I've never had any sort of failure.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

[8D]Hehehe that post was a classic!! :DBrings a whole new meaning to the term "hot lead"

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

That post is a classic example of someone that knows nothing about the topic taking advice from someone that thinks that they know something about the topic.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

That part at the begining.. the JMO... I agree with that part. But the rest.... well.... not so much.

If the tip of bullet, the plastic polymer, acctually melts away... totally away... then wouldn't the heat that could cause such a thing be enough to completely melt the lead core of the bullet. What sort of heat does it take to melt lead... 350 degrees... if that. At what temperature does plastic acctually melt and become molten? Isn't something around 900? Like... phosphorus temperatures? We are talking bullets, not shaped charges here.... and when it comes to penetration... a shaped charge tends to trump a bullet.... don't you think?

Me and stubble have had our respective opinions on ballistic tips in the past. And I still hold that the early models were little more than oversized varmint bullets... and guess what... they blew up on impact. Modern manufacturing has reinforced and tapered the jackets of bullets, causing controlled expansion, even at the high speeds produced by modern flat shooting, light bullets. Enter the bonded bullet... even more controlled expansion, designed to have the benefits of a high ballistic coefficent, with the accuracy of a ballistic tip and the expansion of one as well. All while retaining 70% of its mass and penetrating better than its un-bonded predacessor. All three, the thin jacketed varmint, modern ballistic tip, and the newer accu-bond/scirocco ballistic tips have their place. And that place is in the woods.

I don't know what sort of tests you ran rifleman, but I would like to see the data... and I'd really like to see how it stacks up to the other companies that test ballistic tip bullets... like oh say, Nosler, Swift, Hornady and now Barnes just to name a few.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Classic example of the blind leading the blind[:'(]!

I am with stubblejumper, I have harvested to many animals with BT's to believe they aren't a hunting bullet.I mightadd a number of those animals were the larger subspecies we have here in canada, whitetails upwards of 300 lbs and mulies above 300lbs on the hoof are common. I can think of only one buck that I didn't get a passthruwhich wasan up closeflushdouble shoulder shot -shooter error. Never tracked a deer 100 yards with one yet, majority have been down on the spot orwithin sight. Always had vitals soup. I have never used a bullet that put the spins on our big body deer faster then a BT and thus it continues to my deer bullet.

JMO:D:D

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

That's not what I said. If the short mag BT bullets are shot in moderate distances (@75yds or less) and don't impact something like bone and hit only skin area(no ribs) They will expand very little if at all and will only leave small holes on both sides of a deer. There will also be very little trauma on the lungs as well. This is not myth as some may thing?If they had hit a shoulder it would have been a different story on the expansion and trauma sustained. But everyone has a title to their own opinion.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

So if a lightly jacketed, plastic cone tipped hollow point will only "expand very little", what do you submit would do the job any better?

I'm a follower of the "any bullet in the right place is better than a good one in a bad place." A deer that takes a 30 caliber bullet in the air tanks is going to be in just as much trouble as one that plays chicken with a semi on I-84. Although, the latter will no doubt produce a more impressive blood trail, and I suspect that it will be short, depending on if the trucker hit the brakes or not.

I digress. Most of the rifle wounds you see, when investigating the hide, look as through they did not expand at all. Hide stretches... its what's inside that counts.

The biggest deer I have ever killed sported such a wound. Taken with 150gr Power Points from a 30-06 at 105 yards. Entrance and exit holes looked identical inside. On the skinning pole, you could have put a fair sized grapefruit through the offside shoulder. Appearances can be deceiving you know.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

For anyone that thinks a bullet is travelling TOO FAST TO EXPAND, I have a bridge for sale located in NY state-cheap!!

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

What do you call a person that willkeep on doing the same thing over, and over, and over and expect different results? Not me that is for sure! You win, next game please?

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

He specifically mentioned the 150gr .308" ballistic tip.This bullet expands quite reliable on soft tissue even at .308 win velocities,so driving it at wsm velocities will result in it expanding even more,not less.Driving it too slow can result in inadequate expansion,but the only problem with driving it too fast,is that it may over expand and not hold together resulting in reduced penetration.I use lung shots myself so in many cases,no bone was struck,yet I have never had an issue with a ballistic tip not expanding.

The fact that you even mention 75 yards or less gives the impression that you think that the bullet did not expand was because it still had too much velocity because of the close range.Why else would you even bother to mention the 75 yards or less?There is a myth that some people still believe that a bullet won't expand if driven too fast.This is the myth to which I refer.The fact that you specifically mention the short mag BT puzzles me.The cartridge that a bullet is driven out of is irrelevent,it is the impact speed that determines bullet expansion,not the cartridge that it is driven from.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

I like abit "tougher" bullet than the BT's are, but used within the speed they were designed for, they workquite well...

I took 3 big bull caribou one day with BT's and here's one of them...



He looks dead to me...lol

Anyway, i'm always amazed when i see someone posting that a bullet went so "fast", it didn't expand... How do people come up with things like that???

DM

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Wow, that is some of the most uninformed advice I have ever heard. Where did this person get his education and what was it in, English Lit.? And who are the educated people agreeing with him? They certainly were not educated in 20th century fire arms.

Nosler came up with the concept of polymer tipped bullets in order to give the hollow point hunting bullets a better B.C. And it really only comes into play at longer distances. They are also believed to promote quicker or more reliable expansion on varmint and controlled expansion large game bullets. From what I can tell no one has actually proven that they work any better than the same bullet without the tip.

You can't judge the performance of a bullet simply by the type of tip it has. It is in the bullet design, like how the bullet is constructed. The amount and type of jacket it has, what the core is like and other factors. Some controlled expansion large game bullet have plastic tips on them as do some rapid expansion varmint bullets. Doesn't really have anything to do with the tip, but rather how the bullet was designed to expand. You have to pick the proper bullet for the job. Just because it has a plastic tip doesn't mean it will explode violently when it hits the target.

The thought of a lead or plastic tip burning off the bullet in flight is relatively laughable to me. If that were the case it wouldn't make it out of the barrel and there would be no sense of even having them.

My opinions anyway.

Paul

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Well I use a 100 gr bt with my 25-06 and have shot whitetails at less then 100 yrds and out to 250 yrds with the same results perfect transfer of energy an entry wound and no exit, and a dead critter .

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

I don't care for the ballistic tips either as they can and do go to pieces prematurely on bone at under 100yards.Seen several large bodied deer with a busted shoulder resulting in little more than a surface wound.My buddy even quit using them on antelope 100gr/25-06 due to excessive meat damage.Exit wounds in the ribs you could stick your arm in.The earlier Nosler solid base was even worse.If you collect fur don't use these on yotes either.Bullet expansion relies on 3 things ,velocity,what is struck and jacket thickness[bullet integrity]....................The reason people like them initially is that they are scary accurate.On the other hand I have 2 early Barnes x 130gr .270 one that could be reloaded and fired again and another picture perfect expansion recovered from a 6x7 mulie buck.This is a case of too hard.............Harold If they are working for you that's fine but I now use Hornady interlocks for everything antelope -grizzly with no failures todate.20+years

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Not quite.Bullet expansion relies on velocity,impact media(what is struck) but it also varies greatly with bullet construction,which consists of far more than jacket thickness.A hollow point will generally expand much more rapidly than a lead tipped bullet.A ballistic tip expands quicker because the poly tip acts as a wedge driving the nose open.Jacket hardness matters just as much as jacket thickness.The hardness of the core is also a factor in some cases,but not all since some bullets have tungsten cores that do not expand at all.The monometal bullets such as the tsx have no jackets at all,so jacket thickness and hardness is obviously not a factor.

I have personally used ballistic tips for over 20 years for pronghorn,bighorn,whitetail,mule deer,elk and moose with no failures to date.And over that 20+ years,there have been several changes made to the ballistic tip line of bullets making the newer versions much tougher than the earlier versions.Judging the recent versions based on 20 year old versions is like shopping for a new vehicle using a 20 year old buying guide.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Genreally speaking the heavier bullets per caliber are made for big game and the lighter ones for varmints or real thin skinned game. The 120 grain 7MM would be a Varmint bullet where the 140 and up are intended for big game. The 150 grain 30 caliber would be fine in the 308, 300 Savage speed range where the 180 in the 30 caliber would be a better choice in the 300 Mags. Of course range and remaing velocity would play a factor. The 165 Grain 30 caliber might be about perfect for deer hunting in all the 30 calibers.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Here is my opinion, ballistic tips were designed as varmit bullets, that is still what they are best used for. hunters liked the name and wanted to use them on deer, (amazing what a catchy name will do for marketing) Hornady made some changes to the basic design and produced them in larger calibers for bigger game. ballistic tips do exactly what they were designed to do, they fragment. (they dont explode on impact, and the poly tip doesnt burn off). Its a judgement call that every rifleman has to make, what he wants in a bullet. Personally I dont like ballistic tips, I will almost gaurantee that you will get much better terminal performance from a Sierra Game King bullet than you will from a Ballistic Tip. But if you like them and are confident in them, you should use them. Its great to have a country where you can have all these choices, isnt it? Anyway, happy hunting and good luck!

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Thanks to all that have replied. I have learned a lot about the ballistic tips which was my intention for starting this thread. I have read enough to believe the ballistic tips in my 7mm-08 140grn and 308 150grn will take all the deer I would like. Thanks again for all the replies.

Scott

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

I hate to break the news to you,but Nosler makes the ballistic tip not Hornady.And if you are calling all bullets with a poly tip ballistic tips,you must include the nosler e-tip and accubond,barnes mrx and ttsx,swift scirocco,hornady interbond,and some others.So are you going to tell us that bullets like the mrx,ttsx,e-tip,accubond,scirocco and interbond were designed to be varmint bullets?

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

From my experiences they work well. Every deer I have shot so far dropped on the spot. Im also using Winchester Supreme Balistic Silvertips. .308 in 150g and work real well.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Excuse me stubblejumper, i did make a mistake there, yes the ballistic tips are made by Nosler. No i didnot say any other bullets were designed as anything, But yes, the Nosler Ballistic Tip was designed as a varmint bullet. I dont think i said anywhere that all poly tipped bullets were varmint bullets. I didnt even say anything bad about the bullets, I did say i prefer a different bullet. sorry, maybe i should have kept my opinion off of this forum.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

When you mentioned Hornady,I logically assumed that you were not in fact talking about the ballistic tip made by nosler.As such,it is also logical to assume that you were referring to other bullets with poly tips.As to the ballistic tip being developed as a varmint bullet,perhaps you should read page 4 of the Nosler loading manual number three.It gives the history of nosler bullets,and it specifies exactly why the Nosler ballistic tip was developed.The ballistic tip was developed to prevent the bullet tips from deforming from heavy recoil in the magazines of magnum chambered rifles.So the Nosler ballistic point was originally developed for big game hunting ,unless of course you hunt varmints with heavy recoiling magnum cartridges.Or unless you know better than Nosler,the company that developed and markets the Nosler Ballistic Tip?:D:D:D

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Wow, first i didnt assume anything, i made a mistake while typing my response, Ieven admitted to that. (see above post). Maybe you areASSUMING to much.I think i will stop now, sorry to have ruffled your feathers, like i said in my first post, your hunting bullet is your choice and should be the one you are comfortable with and have confidence in. personally i dont care if you use spit balls.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

If you think that Nosler BT's are not hunting bullets, then you might want to tell Nosler. Apparently they think that they are making hunting bullets.

Taken from Noslers website about the new 168gr .308cal Ballistic Tip (http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=3)

I used to be in the same anti-BT camp because I believed the myths, until some folks here corrected me.

Go to Noslers website and see for yourself. Nosler makes two bullets with the Ballistic Tip name. One is for varmints and the other for big game. The Ballistic Tip Varmint version includes all the BT's in .204 and .224 cal, and the 55gr .243"cal and 85gr .257"cal. All of the heavier .243" and .257" BT bullets are hunting bullets, and ALL BT bullets in calibers 6.5mm (.264") and larger are hunting bullets.

I guess they don't teach people how to do research in the public schools anymore. [&:]:(

Mike

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

Nope, only how properly cite the sources you paraphrase... which is all a research paper is anyway... long roundabout rants of plagerism connected with lots of prepositional phrases and run on sentences.

RE: The bad rap on Ballistic Tips
 

I've killed several deer with the Federal's .308 Premium loading with ballistic tips. So far I've never had one completely penetrate a whitetail. I sure wouldn't use this load for elk, because I'd be concerned about penetration, but it does seem to drop whitetails quickly.