.30-30

i would not go muzzleloader and not a rifle unless i had to unless the rifle wasbroke or just chunk

That may be. When I use ML, I use 90-100gr Pyrodex and a 240-300 gr XTP. I feel okay to 125 or so, but in truth I think that a stretch. And i know that using spitzer bullets and huge (150gr) powder charges, you can reach out there... but I'd feel better with Mr. Marlin.

Killed me a five-pointer this morning. I was in mature woods, up an oak about fifty yards into the woods from a clearcut. He snuck up behind my stand at about 8:30am; I could hear him coming, that distinctive crunch-crunch-crunch that doesn't sound like a squirrel or bird. I wanted to look around, but tried to be patient until he passed the tree, but it was taking forever (I was about 20' up). So I turned by head slowly... and as I looked down, he bolted back from right under the tree. He must have caught a whiff of me, and saw me move.

I don't usually take shots at running game, but when he turned broadside into the cutover at about 75 yards, I tried. I lead him a bit and loosed four shots from the Marlin, and he kept going... then dropped waaaaay out amongst the fallen timber that was clear- cut the year before. I couldn't see where he fell. I went out, looked for about 30min, and found him. I'd hit him twice; once through the lungs, and once through neck just below chin, and just barely nicked trachea; not too bad, two out of four at a running deer. I called a pal to help me drag him back, as I was prob a mile into the woods.

The Marlin 30-30 is a superb whitetail rifle.

Venison sausage and chops, on the way! And some antlers to stir the soup with!

If all you want is an easy way to shoot a deer, go with the .30-30.

If you want a different hunting experience, try the ML. Sure, you only get one shot...that's why you make it count. I've NEVER needed a second shot. Every deer I've shot with a ML has gone down, with the longest track being about 100 yards. All shots have been taken at 125 yards or less, with the average shot being about 60 yards. ML hunting requires much more patience and dicipline than rifle or shotgun hunting, because you simply can't spray-n-pray at a running deer on the off chance you might connect.

And yes, ML'ing does usually require that a person spend some time on the range working up a good load. But the time spent on the range is time well spent. If you just want to buy a box of ammo, spend 5 minutes shooting 3 shots into a paper plate at 100 yards before you head out to the woods, then a ML is not for you. As far a accuracy goes, I'd put my Savage up against your best 30-30 levergun any day. My 10ML-II routinely shoots 1.5MOA. Thats pretty remarkable for a levergun, especially with factory ammo. As far as range goes, the .30-30 may have a small advantage (like maybe 50 yards, depending on the ML's load), but not enough to really make a difference in most cases. A ML with full power loads will carry a lot more stopping power than any 30-30. ANY .452cal bullet at 1900-2300fps is a lot more deadly than a 170gr .308cal RN going 2200fps.

It is true that the 30-30 will be cleaner than most ML's (with the 10ML-II being a notable exception), but as long as you can take the stock off the ML, a 2 minute scrub with hot soapy (dish soap) water will get any ML cleaner than two hours of brushing and patching a CF rifle. But cleaning is one of the true downsides for most ML's.

So it really depends on what your priorities and desires are. I'd suggest you try both. A decent CVA ML can be bought for less than $100 at any Wal-Mart. They also make the blister-pak ML combos that include almost all the necessary accessories including a few bullets, just add powder and primers. After you try ML'ing, you might just find that you like it.

Mike

I didn't say they were more accurate at 100 yards. I said they would probably tend to be more consistent at 200 yards than a ML would be. My ML shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards off from a bench. However it will not do anywhere near that at 150 or 200 yards. I had to switch bullets and make up a new load to get acceptable accuracy at 150 yards, when the load I had would make ragged hole groups at 100. They just don't seem to stabilize that well that far out.

What was suggesting is that you are not just going to go out with a new muzzle loader, throw three pellets in it with a 240 grn pistol bullet and get decent accuracy beyond 100 yards, if at 100 yards. Which is what most try to do. Not that you can't get a decent muzzle loader out to 200 yards (haven't seen one personally to be honest) just that I highly doubt it will happen easily.

And like I said, the ballistics for muzzle loaders looks good on paper, but in the real world a rifle bullet designed for game performs better than a heavy pistol bullet shot at increased speeds. Which is basically what you are doing with an inline muzzle loader or a modern slug gun.

Nobody is saying that a muzzle loader will not work, I know they do since I use one. But if I could use a 30-30 or a 243 that 700ML 50 cal would be gathering a lot of dust during regular gun season.

I think a decent comparison to what I am talking about would be the difference between a normal 40 grn 22LR hollow point and the 17HMR. One uses a basic soft lead bullet moving at a moderate speed. The other uses a well designed bullet that is much lighter but moving at much faster rate. Sure the 22 will kill small animals, and it will do it effectively. But there is no denying the little 17 will shoot farther and transfer more energy to the game. That is what it was designed to after all.

At least that is how I see it anyway.

If you are shooting a muzzle loader for the challenge I surely hope you are not using a modern inline, because to most that would be cheating. You need a flintlock with a ball to really be muzzle loading.

Paul

If you're implying that ML sabot bullets aren't "designed for game," then I'd say you haven't seen what a Barnes Spitfire or a Hornady SST/ML bullet will do to a deer at 2200fps. I'd say that a 45cal bullet expanding to 0.9" will do more damage than a .30cal bullet that might expand to a tad over 1/2" at the same impact velocity. I've seen what my ML will do, and it's nothing short of devastating.

Mike

Yeah, I've seen it, too. While I've prob shot more deer with muzzleloader than with the 30-30, my experience is that the 30-30 drops them faster.

YMMV

rotor...3030 withhornady rounds..no muss no fuss..now git ta gittin