Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
08-17-2007, 09:29 AM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: S.W. Pa.-- Heart in North Central Pa. mountains-
Posts: 2,600
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
Let me ask this...if the robber swings towards me with his gun extended, I think I would be slapping some .380's at him. Fred is my witness that he wheeled around at me, gun extended. Now, just for the sake of argument, what if he realized my presence, told me to drop my weapon, or Fred was dead. Do I have the right, legally, to fill the back of his shirt with holes? Remember, Fred is directly in front of him, and I am somewhere off to the rear, about 45 degs. He never turns to address me directly, just commands me, and never takes the gun off Fred.
08-17-2007, 11:57 AM
#22
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 1,184
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
ORIGINAL: kdvollmer
This is going to sound cold as hell to some, but 15 doesn't change anything. A real gun, is a real gun, and it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger,an adult, or a 15 year old kid.the result is still the same. That might make living with it harder, but I am not willing to get shot just beacuse they look 15. I said it before, if they are robbing a store, and using a gun to do it, commiting this illegal violent crime, then why would you believe that they won't use that gun. Age has nothing to do with it.
Lets look at a little history:
Colombine....need I say more
Seems that those kids shot execution style here recently in the news, one of their shooters was a teen age kid. Just food for thought.
I used to be an Army recruiter outside of oakland, a guy I was working with was shot shortly after i left recruiting duty and wasn't able to join. The shooter, some little punk gangbanger.
TO eldequello: you're right in saying,none of us knowhowwe will react in this situation. But regardless of age, itis stillthe innocent vs the criminal, which is why I BELIEVE I could still shoot. Lord, I hope that I never have to find out.
TO robbcaman: i agree, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
This is going to sound cold as hell to some, but 15 doesn't change anything. A real gun, is a real gun, and it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger,an adult, or a 15 year old kid.the result is still the same. That might make living with it harder, but I am not willing to get shot just beacuse they look 15. I said it before, if they are robbing a store, and using a gun to do it, commiting this illegal violent crime, then why would you believe that they won't use that gun. Age has nothing to do with it.
Lets look at a little history:
Colombine....need I say more
Seems that those kids shot execution style here recently in the news, one of their shooters was a teen age kid. Just food for thought.
I used to be an Army recruiter outside of oakland, a guy I was working with was shot shortly after i left recruiting duty and wasn't able to join. The shooter, some little punk gangbanger.
TO eldequello: you're right in saying,none of us knowhowwe will react in this situation. But regardless of age, itis stillthe innocent vs the criminal, which is why I BELIEVE I could still shoot. Lord, I hope that I never have to find out.
TO robbcaman: i agree, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
08-17-2007, 12:00 PM
#23
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Western PA
Posts: 374
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
In my experience you would engage the would be robber. He is a threat to Fred, yourself, and any persons he would encounter in his flight from the scene. I would begin shooting as soon as soon as you clearly identified the threat (i.e. revolver) and would only stop shooting once the threat is neutralized. I concur with all who have said that you have no duty to retreat in this scenario. Also the civil implications of your actions should never enter your head. The Supreme court has consistently ruled that you are justified in situations such as this even if the firearm is not realistic, functioning, ect. It goes to your state of mind at the time of the incident not four years later. The cliche "judged by ten not carried by six" holds true in this situtation. My advice would be two in chest one in head.
08-17-2007, 12:41 PM
#24
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,867
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
me one of two things i would at that distance shoot him about three or four times or i wloud draw on his back right by his spine and heart walk slowly closer to him then the last thing he hears is my 9mm hollow point enter his brain
now for legaly wether i can nor not i will not nor would i ever let someone pull a gun on someone if there is even a chance in h*ll of them shooting some one wether i am armed or not and if someone pulls a gun out that is chance enough for me he would be died
also the reason i might think of getting closer is i am a good shoot but would not wont a strey to hit fred because then i would have to get to know the next cashier
now for legaly wether i can nor not i will not nor would i ever let someone pull a gun on someone if there is even a chance in h*ll of them shooting some one wether i am armed or not and if someone pulls a gun out that is chance enough for me he would be died
also the reason i might think of getting closer is i am a good shoot but would not wont a strey to hit fred because then i would have to get to know the next cashier
08-17-2007, 01:35 PM
#25
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
Now, just for the sake of argument, what if he realized my presence, told me to drop my weapon, or Fred was dead. Do I have the right, legally, to fill the back of his shirt with holes? Remember, Fred is directly in front of him, and I am somewhere off to the rear, about 45 degs. He never turns to address me directly, just commands me, and never takes the gun off Fred.
In other words assuming I could kill him with out killing Fred at the same time the robber would get shot in the back.
I know what you are saying, but what if it was a 15 year old and the gun turned out to be a fake. Or worse yet, he was stealing the money to get his sick little brother a treatment his family couldn't afford.
I think most (myself included) assume this is a dangerous killer, but what if it is not? Would this change your attitude on killing him??? After thinking about the situation I may try to get him to drop the gun, if he didn't then he is dead.
Do not pull your firearm unless you know that you are prepared to kill another human being with it. And once you have made the decision to pull your firearm DO NOT HESITATE to pull the trigger. Talking and reasoning is out the window at this point.
08-17-2007, 01:54 PM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 2,862
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
As soon as I realized this was happening I would take a crouch stance, and draw on him real slowly so as not to make any noise. Then I would give a loud "DROP YOUR WEAPON" as soon as Fred made eye contact with me. As the perp spins to engage me I would let a double tap go center mass. If the perp listens an drops his weapon I would kick it out of the way and have him get face first on the floor all spread out and hold him at gunpoint till the authorities arrived.
08-17-2007, 02:01 PM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Huntin' In Colorado
Posts: 2,910
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
Give our courts and law enforcerment some slack. They are not stupid and they are not out to get the good guy! I know we have to watch our ass and go by the book, but I don't carry a gun to "not use it." If I think my life is in jepordy, I'm gonna smoke the bad guy and be glad I'm alive and glad I live in a country where I can carry a gun and defend myself! I know there can be split second decisions to be made, but I'm gonna trust my instinct and go with my gut, and put faith in our judicial system. I'm 48 years old and I've never had a problem with it yet!
08-17-2007, 07:57 PM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast Missouri
Posts: 2,178
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
If I'm standing behind the magazine rack while clutching the last issue of this months Deer & Deer Hunting magazine the Robber is as good as dead.....cause Fred don't accept master card especially if he has a hole in his head! 
08-17-2007, 10:42 PM
#30
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 583
RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
ORIGINAL: robbcayman
I know what you are saying, but what if it was a 15 year old and the gun turned out to be a fake. Or worse yet, he was stealing the money to get his sick little brother a treatment his family couldn't afford. I think most (myself included) assume this is a dangerous killer, but what if it is not? Would this change your attitude on killing him??? After thinking about the situation I may try to get him to drop the gun, if he didn't then he is dead.
ORIGINAL: kdvollmer
This is going to sound cold as hell to some, but 15 doesn't change anything. A real gun, is a real gun, and it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger,an adult, or a 15 year old kid.the result is still the same. That might make living with it harder, but I am not willing to get shot just beacuse they look 15. I said it before, if they are robbing a store, and using a gun to do it, commiting this illegal violent crime, then why would you believe that they won't use that gun. Age has nothing to do with it.
Lets look at a little history:
Colombine....need I say more
Seems that those kids shot execution style here recently in the news, one of their shooters was a teen age kid. Just food for thought.
I used to be an Army recruiter outside of oakland, a guy I was working with was shot shortly after i left recruiting duty and wasn't able to join. The shooter, some little punk gangbanger.
TO eldequello: you're right in saying,none of us knowhowwe will react in this situation. But regardless of age, itis stillthe innocent vs the criminal, which is why I BELIEVE I could still shoot. Lord, I hope that I never have to find out.
TO robbcaman: i agree, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
This is going to sound cold as hell to some, but 15 doesn't change anything. A real gun, is a real gun, and it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger,an adult, or a 15 year old kid.the result is still the same. That might make living with it harder, but I am not willing to get shot just beacuse they look 15. I said it before, if they are robbing a store, and using a gun to do it, commiting this illegal violent crime, then why would you believe that they won't use that gun. Age has nothing to do with it.
Lets look at a little history:
Colombine....need I say more
Seems that those kids shot execution style here recently in the news, one of their shooters was a teen age kid. Just food for thought.
I used to be an Army recruiter outside of oakland, a guy I was working with was shot shortly after i left recruiting duty and wasn't able to join. The shooter, some little punk gangbanger.
TO eldequello: you're right in saying,none of us knowhowwe will react in this situation. But regardless of age, itis stillthe innocent vs the criminal, which is why I BELIEVE I could still shoot. Lord, I hope that I never have to find out.
TO robbcaman: i agree, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Sure, nobody wants to shoot a 15 year old kid. But it still comes down to whether or not you are willing to gamble with Freds life, or yourown. Read the scenario, you have your gun drawn and Fred makes eye contact with you. What do you think that armed criminal is going to do, not bother to look and see.
As far as the gun turning out to be a fake. Until he s down, and somebody canpick it up and see, that guy is still commiting a felony act of Armed Robbery. And as far as what the money is for....cold as it may sound, that is irrelevant. Even if there is a sick little brother, thereare childrens hospitals to help kids like that. Look into the Shriners. IT IS STILL ARMED ROBBERY. IT IS STILL ILLEGAL. If somebody has a gun and are robbing this store that I am in, it is not my responsibility to be like " hey kid, what'cha need that money for" and to reason with him. He has made a concious choice to ROB at GUNPOINT this store. At that age, everybody knows that is wrong and illegal.
See back when I lived in California, and applied for a CCW, and because it was California, it was denied, I continued to try to get it. I was talking with several guys I knew on the Sheriffs Department about carrying...etc. I made a comment that I wasn't looking to carry 100% of the time and to be some gun toting danger to society, lookng to be the vigilante. They told me that if I were to give it to me, that they would hope that I would carry all the time. No sense in giving a permit not to use it. (read this didn't say they wanted me to be the crazy guy vigilante, but somebody that would carry in just this situation.)