Caliber for young shooters?
12-15-2002, 08:20 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tacoma WA USA
Posts: 131
Caliber for young shooters?
A friend and I were recently discussing which caliber rifles to start our kids out on for deer.We both have sons who are 10 years old and will be able to tote guns soon.
I mentioned that I thought a 243 would be a great gun for deer. His reponse was that he has heard way too many "horror stories" about deer running off when hit solidly with a 243. He seems to think the 308 would be a much better choice for his son's first rifle.
Admittedly, neither of us has much first hand knowledge of the 243. My buddy maintains that the 308 is the best choice and that the recoil should not be a problem because he read on a chart somewhere that the 308 recoil is so much less than the 30-06. I've owned and shot a 308 Mod. 99 for years, and while I agree the recoil is less than any '06 I've ever fired, I think it still might be too much for a kid who hasn't "worked up to it."
Obviously the 308 is a more universal caliber, but is there any problem with the 243 on deer? Assuming that range is reasonable and placement is good I believe a 95 grain bullet fired at 243 velocity would put down an average deer pretty quick-like.
I'm considering getting my son a 243, then letting him graduate to the 308 in a few years.
My partner wants to get his son a 308 to hunt with next year (he will be 10). His son is considerably smaller and lighter in frame than mine. Both kids are experienced shooters with a 22 and loaded down muzzle-loader.
Any thoughts either way? Input appreciated!
I mentioned that I thought a 243 would be a great gun for deer. His reponse was that he has heard way too many "horror stories" about deer running off when hit solidly with a 243. He seems to think the 308 would be a much better choice for his son's first rifle.
Admittedly, neither of us has much first hand knowledge of the 243. My buddy maintains that the 308 is the best choice and that the recoil should not be a problem because he read on a chart somewhere that the 308 recoil is so much less than the 30-06. I've owned and shot a 308 Mod. 99 for years, and while I agree the recoil is less than any '06 I've ever fired, I think it still might be too much for a kid who hasn't "worked up to it."
Obviously the 308 is a more universal caliber, but is there any problem with the 243 on deer? Assuming that range is reasonable and placement is good I believe a 95 grain bullet fired at 243 velocity would put down an average deer pretty quick-like.
I'm considering getting my son a 243, then letting him graduate to the 308 in a few years.
My partner wants to get his son a 308 to hunt with next year (he will be 10). His son is considerably smaller and lighter in frame than mine. Both kids are experienced shooters with a 22 and loaded down muzzle-loader.
Any thoughts either way? Input appreciated!
12-15-2002, 08:30 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bossier City LA United States
Posts: 2,425
RE: Caliber for young shooters?
Bullkllr, although the 308 Win is a fine cartridge and gennerally a mild recoiling one, in the wrong rifle it can scare the wits out of a young shooter. The 243 Win is a good choice for a deer cartridge with little recoil. I have killed many deer with one and never had one go farther than 40 yards. However, there are some better choices out there if you are uncomfortable with the 243 and feel it smallish. Moving up to 25 caliber you have the 257 Roberts which is an excellent deer round with very mild recoil. The 25-06 Rem is also excellent. Either the 6.5X55mm Swede or the 260 Rem would also be good for a young shooter. I would give the edge to the 260 Rem just because I think there will be several more rifles chambered in it soon. Now my personal favorite is the 7mm-08 Rem. Fine ballistics and mild recoil. Probably as close as you can ge to the "perfect" deer cartridge. Keep in mind it has a bit more recoil than the 260 Rem, but should still be very manageable.
12-16-2002, 04:48 AM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Toowoomba Queensland Australia
Posts: 57
RE: Caliber for young shooters?
BullKllr
LISTEN TO frizzellr
The 243 is underrated by a lot of people,I've shot pigs over 300 pounds with it(one shot one kill)& & friend of mine used to use it on red deer with no problems & I beleive it is a good cartridge to start off with.However the 260 or the 7mm-08 would be very good as well,
as they allow the use of heavier bullets with little increase in recoil,I havn't used the 260 but the 7mm-08 is now a favorite of mine.
The 243,260ren,7mm-08 & 308 are all based on the same case,the 308 necked down.
The 260 or the 7mm-08 with bullets up to 140 grains would be my choice for the boys,the 308 might just have too much recoil.
Which ever way you go,give the boys plenty of practice before live game as shot placement is the secret.
Good hunting
Tumbo
LISTEN TO frizzellr
The 243 is underrated by a lot of people,I've shot pigs over 300 pounds with it(one shot one kill)& & friend of mine used to use it on red deer with no problems & I beleive it is a good cartridge to start off with.However the 260 or the 7mm-08 would be very good as well,
as they allow the use of heavier bullets with little increase in recoil,I havn't used the 260 but the 7mm-08 is now a favorite of mine.
The 243,260ren,7mm-08 & 308 are all based on the same case,the 308 necked down.
The 260 or the 7mm-08 with bullets up to 140 grains would be my choice for the boys,the 308 might just have too much recoil.
Which ever way you go,give the boys plenty of practice before live game as shot placement is the secret.
Good hunting
Tumbo
12-16-2002, 07:52 AM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 236
RE: Caliber for young shooters?
Bullkllr, I agree with all of the above. I am in the same position you are. I have narrowed my choices down to the .25-06, .257roberts, .260 and 7mm-08. I don't feel comfortable with the .243 and I would definately stay away form the .308 as a first gun for kids! Out of the four the 7-08 has the best availability and widest selection of factory ammo. Unless you handload I would go with the 7-08. If you do handload (or know somebody who would do it for you) then just flip a coin, see what's available in your price range, and which one has the best fit as far as size. You (and the boys) won't be disappointed with any of these. Personally, I'm going to see what fits my son and what I can get the best deal on. I will feel confident with any of the 4 calibers I mentioned.
12-16-2002, 09:22 AM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Shreveport Louisiana USA
Posts: 27
RE: Caliber for young shooters?
Well the 243 is a 308 case necked down to 24 caliber so the recoil will be the same. With the 243 you get higher velocity and with the 308 you get better energy down range. Both are excellent deer rifles and have put alot of deer on the ground over the years I would suggest flipping a coin<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
It's the operator that messes up....not the equipment.Have confidence in yourself and shoot straight.
It's the operator that messes up....not the equipment.Have confidence in yourself and shoot straight.
12-16-2002, 09:38 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bossier City LA United States
Posts: 2,425
RE: Caliber for young shooters?
"Well the 243 is a 308 case necked down to 24 caliber so the recoil will be the same." That isn't true. Just because the case is the same has absolutely nothing to do with recoil. Velocity, bullet weight, powder charge and the weight of the rifle determine felt recoil. The 243 Win uses a lighter bullet and a lighter powder charge than a 308 Win therefore the recoil is less in a rifle of the same weight. BTW, you can push a 150 grain 308 bullet to almost the same velocity as you can push a 100 grain 243.
Edited by - frizzellr on 12/16/2002 19:10:38
Edited by - frizzellr on 12/16/2002 19:10:38
12-16-2002, 10:38 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Gypsum KS USA
Posts: 1,289
RE: Caliber for young shooters?
frizzller made a good point, that the .243 hold lighter bullets and less powder than the .308, making it lighter kicking in the same weight rifle. However, the funny thing about it is, although it may not be noticeable, if you loaded a .243 and a .308 to the same muzzle energy in the same rifle, the .243 would kick harder, because it would be trying to push the same force out of a smaller tube, therefore the internal pressure would be much higher in the .243 load than the .308 load, which would give a harder recoil, that's why they load down the .243, to stay under SAAMI standard internal pressures.
ANYWAY.....In most rifles, I don't think that the .308 would be unmanageable for someone 10 yoa. In most factory loads, I'd imagine that most 12ga 2.75" pump action shotguns kick harder than the .308. I gave my fiance her .308 when she turned 16, she was 5'5", 115# at the time, and was, of course, a girl!!, and she never complained about it kicking too hard. Her brother started shooting a .270 when he was 12, and he was around 105# at the time. This Thanksgiving, my cousin came over with his high powers, and all the kids (boys and girls) wanted to watch while we shot, eventually it came that we offered to let them shoot (with forend on a haybale since they weren't strong enough to level them), an array from .22-250 to .308 as options. The oldest of them was 7yoa, youngest was 4. Most of them shot the .308, and not one complained about it hurting them. How light built are your sons that recoil that didn't hurt a 30# 6 year old is going to hurt them?
Give the kid a pair of muffs so the sound doesn't scare him. Even if felt recoil isn't much, if the sound scares you, you'll think it hurt like heck!
If it were my son and he couldn't handle the recoil of a .30-06, I'd buy a .308, put a good recoil pad on the buttstock, and buy him a padded shirt to benchrest with and not worry about the hunt, because he's not going to feel it then anyway. Maybe looking into an A-bolt with BOSS system, reduces recoil, but make sure they wear their ear muffs!
Other suggestions would be a .30-30, 6.5x55 swede, 7mm mauser (7x57mm), 7mm-08 or go ahead with the .243. Any one of these I've mentioned here are probably going to give you a bit better guarantee than the .243, but with less recoil than the .308
Screw the 10 ring, keep them in the zero!!!
ANYWAY.....In most rifles, I don't think that the .308 would be unmanageable for someone 10 yoa. In most factory loads, I'd imagine that most 12ga 2.75" pump action shotguns kick harder than the .308. I gave my fiance her .308 when she turned 16, she was 5'5", 115# at the time, and was, of course, a girl!!, and she never complained about it kicking too hard. Her brother started shooting a .270 when he was 12, and he was around 105# at the time. This Thanksgiving, my cousin came over with his high powers, and all the kids (boys and girls) wanted to watch while we shot, eventually it came that we offered to let them shoot (with forend on a haybale since they weren't strong enough to level them), an array from .22-250 to .308 as options. The oldest of them was 7yoa, youngest was 4. Most of them shot the .308, and not one complained about it hurting them. How light built are your sons that recoil that didn't hurt a 30# 6 year old is going to hurt them?
Give the kid a pair of muffs so the sound doesn't scare him. Even if felt recoil isn't much, if the sound scares you, you'll think it hurt like heck!
If it were my son and he couldn't handle the recoil of a .30-06, I'd buy a .308, put a good recoil pad on the buttstock, and buy him a padded shirt to benchrest with and not worry about the hunt, because he's not going to feel it then anyway. Maybe looking into an A-bolt with BOSS system, reduces recoil, but make sure they wear their ear muffs!
Other suggestions would be a .30-30, 6.5x55 swede, 7mm mauser (7x57mm), 7mm-08 or go ahead with the .243. Any one of these I've mentioned here are probably going to give you a bit better guarantee than the .243, but with less recoil than the .308
Screw the 10 ring, keep them in the zero!!!
12-16-2002, 12:23 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bossier City LA United States
Posts: 2,425
RE: Caliber for young shooters?
"if you loaded a .243 and a .308 to the same muzzle energy in the same rifle, the .243 would kick harder". If you did that you would blow up a perfectly good 243 so why even bring it up? Not to mention you would have a hard time finding a way to fit enough powder in a 243 case to be able to launch a 100 grain 6mm bullet at the required 3300fps. The 240 Weatherby isn't even that fast.
Edited by - frizzellr on 12/16/2002 19:04:17
Edited by - frizzellr on 12/16/2002 19:04:17
12-16-2002, 01:49 PM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Caliber for young shooters?
30-30, I would have to say. Or .243. Either one would be fine.
Hodgedon put out some great reduced loads for youth for a whole slew of calibers with H4895. Only problem will be most 30-06's and so are not made for youths and stock won't fit them that well. If your a reloader, and would want to get him a gun that would fit him for a long time, maybe a model 7 .308 and make some nice reduced loads.
Just a thought.
Hodgedon put out some great reduced loads for youth for a whole slew of calibers with H4895. Only problem will be most 30-06's and so are not made for youths and stock won't fit them that well. If your a reloader, and would want to get him a gun that would fit him for a long time, maybe a model 7 .308 and make some nice reduced loads.
Just a thought.