Caliber for young shooters?
 

A friend and I were recently discussing which caliber rifles to start our kids out on for deer.We both have sons who are 10 years old and will be able to tote guns soon.

I mentioned that I thought a 243 would be a great gun for deer. His reponse was that he has heard way too many "horror stories" about deer running off when hit solidly with a 243. He seems to think the 308 would be a much better choice for his son's first rifle.

Admittedly, neither of us has much first hand knowledge of the 243. My buddy maintains that the 308 is the best choice and that the recoil should not be a problem because he read on a chart somewhere that the 308 recoil is so much less than the 30-06. I've owned and shot a 308 Mod. 99 for years, and while I agree the recoil is less than any '06 I've ever fired, I think it still might be too much for a kid who hasn't "worked up to it."

Obviously the 308 is a more universal caliber, but is there any problem with the 243 on deer? Assuming that range is reasonable and placement is good I believe a 95 grain bullet fired at 243 velocity would put down an average deer pretty quick-like.

I'm considering getting my son a 243, then letting him graduate to the 308 in a few years.

My partner wants to get his son a 308 to hunt with next year (he will be 10). His son is considerably smaller and lighter in frame than mine. Both kids are experienced shooters with a 22 and loaded down muzzle-loader.

Any thoughts either way? Input appreciated!

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

Bullkllr, although the 308 Win is a fine cartridge and gennerally a mild recoiling one, in the wrong rifle it can scare the wits out of a young shooter. The 243 Win is a good choice for a deer cartridge with little recoil. I have killed many deer with one and never had one go farther than 40 yards. However, there are some better choices out there if you are uncomfortable with the 243 and feel it smallish. Moving up to 25 caliber you have the 257 Roberts which is an excellent deer round with very mild recoil. The 25-06 Rem is also excellent. Either the 6.5X55mm Swede or the 260 Rem would also be good for a young shooter. I would give the edge to the 260 Rem just because I think there will be several more rifles chambered in it soon. Now my personal favorite is the 7mm-08 Rem. Fine ballistics and mild recoil. Probably as close as you can ge to the "perfect" deer cartridge. Keep in mind it has a bit more recoil than the 260 Rem, but should still be very manageable.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

frizzellr said it all!

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

BullKllr

LISTEN TO frizzellr

The 243 is underrated by a lot of people,I've shot pigs over 300 pounds with it(one shot one kill)& & friend of mine used to use it on red deer with no problems & I beleive it is a good cartridge to start off with.However the 260 or the 7mm-08 would be very good as well,
as they allow the use of heavier bullets with little increase in recoil,I havn't used the 260 but the 7mm-08 is now a favorite of mine.

The 243,260ren,7mm-08 & 308 are all based on the same case,the 308 necked down.
The 260 or the 7mm-08 with bullets up to 140 grains would be my choice for the boys,the 308 might just have too much recoil.

Which ever way you go,give the boys plenty of practice before live game as shot placement is the secret.

Good hunting

Tumbo

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

Bullkllr, I agree with all of the above. I am in the same position you are. I have narrowed my choices down to the .25-06, .257roberts, .260 and 7mm-08. I don't feel comfortable with the .243 and I would definately stay away form the .308 as a first gun for kids! Out of the four the 7-08 has the best availability and widest selection of factory ammo. Unless you handload I would go with the 7-08. If you do handload (or know somebody who would do it for you) then just flip a coin, see what's available in your price range, and which one has the best fit as far as size. You (and the boys) won't be disappointed with any of these. Personally, I'm going to see what fits my son and what I can get the best deal on. I will feel confident with any of the 4 calibers I mentioned.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

Well the 243 is a 308 case necked down to 24 caliber so the recoil will be the same. With the 243 you get higher velocity and with the 308 you get better energy down range. Both are excellent deer rifles and have put alot of deer on the ground over the years I would suggest flipping a coin<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

It's the operator that messes up....not the equipment.Have confidence in yourself and shoot straight.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

&quot;Well the 243 is a 308 case necked down to 24 caliber so the recoil will be the same.&quot; That isn't true. Just because the case is the same has absolutely nothing to do with recoil. Velocity, bullet weight, powder charge and the weight of the rifle determine felt recoil. The 243 Win uses a lighter bullet and a lighter powder charge than a 308 Win therefore the recoil is less in a rifle of the same weight. BTW, you can push a 150 grain 308 bullet to almost the same velocity as you can push a 100 grain 243.

Edited by - frizzellr on 12/16/2002 19:10:38

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

frizzller made a good point, that the .243 hold lighter bullets and less powder than the .308, making it lighter kicking in the same weight rifle. However, the funny thing about it is, although it may not be noticeable, if you loaded a .243 and a .308 to the same muzzle energy in the same rifle, the .243 would kick harder, because it would be trying to push the same force out of a smaller tube, therefore the internal pressure would be much higher in the .243 load than the .308 load, which would give a harder recoil, that's why they load down the .243, to stay under SAAMI standard internal pressures.

ANYWAY.....In most rifles, I don't think that the .308 would be unmanageable for someone 10 yoa. In most factory loads, I'd imagine that most 12ga 2.75&quot; pump action shotguns kick harder than the .308. I gave my fiance her .308 when she turned 16, she was 5'5&quot;, 115# at the time, and was, of course, a girl!!, and she never complained about it kicking too hard. Her brother started shooting a .270 when he was 12, and he was around 105# at the time. This Thanksgiving, my cousin came over with his high powers, and all the kids (boys and girls) wanted to watch while we shot, eventually it came that we offered to let them shoot (with forend on a haybale since they weren't strong enough to level them), an array from .22-250 to .308 as options. The oldest of them was 7yoa, youngest was 4. Most of them shot the .308, and not one complained about it hurting them. How light built are your sons that recoil that didn't hurt a 30# 6 year old is going to hurt them?

Give the kid a pair of muffs so the sound doesn't scare him. Even if felt recoil isn't much, if the sound scares you, you'll think it hurt like heck!

If it were my son and he couldn't handle the recoil of a .30-06, I'd buy a .308, put a good recoil pad on the buttstock, and buy him a padded shirt to benchrest with and not worry about the hunt, because he's not going to feel it then anyway. Maybe looking into an A-bolt with BOSS system, reduces recoil, but make sure they wear their ear muffs!

Other suggestions would be a .30-30, 6.5x55 swede, 7mm mauser (7x57mm), 7mm-08 or go ahead with the .243. Any one of these I've mentioned here are probably going to give you a bit better guarantee than the .243, but with less recoil than the .308

Screw the 10 ring, keep them in the zero!!!

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

&quot;if you loaded a .243 and a .308 to the same muzzle energy in the same rifle, the .243 would kick harder&quot;. If you did that you would blow up a perfectly good 243 so why even bring it up? Not to mention you would have a hard time finding a way to fit enough powder in a 243 case to be able to launch a 100 grain 6mm bullet at the required 3300fps. The 240 Weatherby isn't even that fast.

Edited by - frizzellr on 12/16/2002 19:04:17

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

30-30, I would have to say. Or .243. Either one would be fine.

Hodgedon put out some great reduced loads for youth for a whole slew of calibers with H4895. Only problem will be most 30-06's and so are not made for youths and stock won't fit them that well. If your a reloader, and would want to get him a gun that would fit him for a long time, maybe a model 7 .308 and make some nice reduced loads.

Just a thought.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

As good as the .30-30 is, the stocks are poorly designed to absorb recoil. The Winchesters are worse than the Marlins but they both have a higher &quot;percieved&quot; recoil than what it actually is. Yes the .30-30 is an option but in my opinion, not the best one. The 6.5 Swede and even 7mm Mauser that NoMercy mentioned would also be excellent choices. Also check out the New England Firearms rifles. These neat single shot rifles do come in .243, .25-06 and a bunch of other great deer calibers plus you can buy optional barrels in other calibers just like the Encore just a lot less expensive (they sell for around $200-$300.00 with extra barrels less than $100). They are also very accurate.

Regardless of which gun you buy the real problem will be making a decision because ther are so many good calibers for the kids. Pick any of them between .25-06 and 7mm-08 and let budget, stock fit, and ammo cost and availability be the deciding factors and you will be very happy.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

I would hate to know the statistics on how many kids took there first deer with a youth size 30-30. I know I did. At 11 or so, a 30-30 is a peice of cake.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

the 7mm-08 is a great light recoiling deer round and would be my pick for a young hunter's first deer rifle. the 257 roberts is also a fine choice, if you can find one at a rersonable cost. the 243 is not personal favorite but it kills alot of deer every year. stay away from a 308 or the 25-06, they have too much recoil for a young hunter.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

In this case, I like the .257 Roberts, 6.5x55 Swedish, .260 Rem, 7x57 Mauser and 7mm-08 Rem.

The Roberts, Swede and Mauser are perfect for handloaders, because most factory ammo is downloaded (read: mild recoil) and perfect for young shooters to practice with. You can then load hotter when they are ready.

The .260, and the 7mm-08 are ready to rock right out of the box.

I love 'em all, though!

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

Lots of good advice. I'd like to second Nomercy's point about the ear protection, though. A young shooter's first impression of a rifle will determine how they feel about it for a long time. The muzzle blast from a deer rifle hitting unprotected ears makes it seem like you're getting pounded no matter how light the recoil.

As so many said, a .257 Roberts or .260 Rem. would be great for a kid or an adult, carrying just a tad more insurance than a .243, yet still having very mild recoil.

If you can tell the difference in recoil between a .308 and .30-06 with the same bullet weights, you're more perceptive than I am. Some kids might shoot one of these just fine, but a lighter caliber seems like a wiser choice.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

Wow, thanks for all the great replies. I think I sort of had tunnel vision with the 243/308 issue and forgot there are some other great possibilities. I may end up going with &quot;the best rifle available.&quot;

As far as the size and build of my kid issue, he is a pretty sturdy 95# and in great shape from constant sports, but I don't think this is the issue. I know kids, and I know a thing or two about shooters, recoil, and accuracy. Letting a young kid fire a rifle one time and not having them fall over and scream from the recoil is a far cry from developing confident shooting habits that will allow responsible hunting. I want my son to be as comfortable and experienced as possible before he gets a big-game animal in the crosshairs.

How many adults do you see sighting in their rifles who have horrible flinches, etc. as a result of guns they can't really handle? These guys can't be any better on game; I see them having trouble hitting paper at the range. I don't want any part of this for my son. I expect within a few years he'll be able to shoot most anything;but most shooters who learn to handle recoil well start small and work up to big. Most everyone would flinch like crazy (at least for a while) if they started out with a 338. These habits are tough to break.

I'm more concerned with getting a gun he'll find enjoyable to shoot enough to be highly accurate. I also want to make sure it fits him stock-wise. I remember battling full sized stocks for years when I was a kid. I was thinking 243 because they make some &quot;youth models.&quot;
Any ideas on cutting-off or replacing stocks to make a rifle fit better?

Incidentally, I've got two 30-30's (94s) on my rack, and while kids have been using these for years with some success,if you haven't shot a straight stocked, 5#, butt-plate rifle for a while - they do whack a bit.

Thanks again, all!

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

i like the 308...my sons first deer rifle (if i ever have a son) is going to be a ruger #1 in 308 or a TC in 308...you cant go wrong with the 308...its a great caliber and its never too small for about all deer..and generally its recoil is pretty mild...if the shooter can take it thats a pretty good round...not something they will grow out of...i mean sure u can take deer all the time with a 243...but with a hit a hair off you have some tracking...you put it a hair off and a 308 still might do the trick...most of the shots ive heard of with 243s no matter what go about 70+yds...all the ones with a 308 drop or dont make it 50...but if hte shooter cant take it and i know some kids cant the 243 will be a great little gun...and let them grow and get a bigger gun when they are ready..it all depends on the kid..some kids would cry over a 308...

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

Thanks again. The input really helps.

BTW, Nomercy, I'm dyin' to ask; where exactly does one find a &quot;30 lb. six year old?&quot;

End of a ran-out-of-food lunch line?
Dwarf convention?
Ethiopia?
Cocker spaniel kennel at the pet store?

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

My 12 y/o shoots a rem 700 youth in 243. he has killed two bucks this year with it. one ran oh 40 yards maybe ,.
Now how many experts on here have taken two bucks this year???
yeah he can shoot my model seven in 308 , but the recoil makes him a poor shot. he has shot many other rifles but he can shoot the 243 better than most adults can shoot. so let him shoot the one he is most comfortable with. i will promise you it will put venison in your freezer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

SOUTH ARKANSAS REBEL

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

I own a 6.5x55 and it's a great cartridge for deer with very low recoil and excellent results.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

If it was my kid, he'd be starting his hunting of big game with a .243, a .250 Savage or a .257 Roberts.

There's no reason to use more gun for deer size animals.....and as for deer running off after being shot.....I've seen it more with the .30-06 than any other cartridge.....it's related to placement and certainly not power.

The .243 and similar rifles have plenty of power and the kids will shoot them better due to the lower recoil.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

243 is plenty of gun for deer, Ive used it for deer and moose. just place your shot well and you will be fine. the 308 will give you a little breathing room.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

243 Win, 260 Rem, 7mm-08, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

Another vote for 260 rem.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

Why don't you just let him shoot a few different rifles of different cartridges. Who knows he might like shooting one of the larger cartridges like the 308 or 30-06 or he may really like the .243. Any of which is plenty enough for deer.

I got my first gun at 11, a 12 gague. I was shooting everything from light field loads to 3 inch buck shot loads. I killed my first deer soon after I got it still 11 years old. At 12 years old I got a 30-06. Neither of the two kicked too hard for me to shoot well.

My son is 11 years old this year. He loves to shoot my .270. The recoil does not bother him a bit. He was scared the first time he pulled the trigger then he looked at me with a big grin on his face and said "Can I shoot it qagain?".

Let him shoot a few if you can and he will tell you what he likes.

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

7mm-08 is probably the best caliber for young shooters to start on. Better power and sectional density than the .243. It is the caliber Craig Boddington chose for his daughter and her best friend to use on a hunt in Africa. Both girls were able to shoot it well, and took several large animals with it. You can also get ammo for it at any Wal Mart, or other stores that sell ammo just about anywhere. It is also an extremely versitile caliber, sufficient even for Elk at resonable ranges. I think it offers everything you need.

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RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

I would pick one of these three and limit him to short range

.250-3000 savage
7.62x39( in the cz carbine) i
7-30 waters

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

I'd agree with Frizz on all points! .243 is a very good minimum deer caliber, with plenty of punch and low recoil too! Good for beginners and veterans alike!

RE: Caliber for young shooters?
 

243, 6mm, 250savage,257roberts, 260,7mm-08, any are fine the 243 is adequate for deer my dad dropped a moose w a 6mm. It went through both shoulders out the other side, ran approx 7ft. Use PREMIUM bullets, they really do make a difference.