RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

a 243 is adequate as far as im concerned, but why not take a step up just to be safe because a 257 or a 270 isnt gonna cause a good shooter to start shooting poorly. Going from a 223 to a 338 mag or something could definately do it, but a 243seems to be an obvious better choice for deer shooting than a 22-250 and it wont make 99 percent of the shooters out there shoot poorly. Anything really less than a 243 seems a little on the under-gunned size to me but again, thats just my OPINION and we all know what opinions are like...

After all, if you use a 22-250 or a 223 to kill deer, why not put down the 17hmr's and the 22 hornets and start hunting groundhogs and prarie dogs with BB and pellet guns....afterall, they could kill a prarie dog just as easily if you shoot them in the head so why use the extra weight and speed in a bullet if it isnt needed?

Simple answer...people want to be better safe than sorry and the larger faster rounds are more of a garunteed kill.

Im not jumping on anybody just trying to defend my opinion (which i prolly havent done very well) which i believe everbody should be entitled to do. :)

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Tell that to the 4 deer and 1 hog I lostwith a bow, and to the 5 deer and 2 hogs I have killed with my Hornet.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Most states have minimum calibers for deer. I know that a few don't. Howeverin most states the 22 or 17 would not be legal. That would be a good reason not to use them. In the two states where I hunt most, the 222 is the minimum. The hornet and any rimfires do not meet the laws. Where legal, those guns may be used and although I prefer the 25 caliber as minumum, thats just me.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Sure you did:D

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

A lot of people talk about using a small caliber and shooting deer in the head. A lot of them will say if I miss at least the deer won't be wounded. That is fine until they are off a little bit and blow their bottom jaw off and they run off to strave to death because they can't eat. We had to shoot one we found that way laying down near a creek trying to drink because someone tried to shoot her in the head and shoot her jaw off instead. It is too easy for the shooter to be off a little or have the deer move a little at the last second. It makes a lot more sense to use a big enough gun and shoot them in the vitals instead of trying to use as small a gun as you can and shoot them in the head.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

You can calculate energy given velocity and bullet mass. If both of these are in his reports, than probably energy is figured in there as well - maybe just not mentioned. E=mv^2 if I remember correctly. Though I might agree with him, comparing my 270 to a freinds 3006, he has a slight advantage in energy and bullet wieght yet the faster 270 seems to almost always produce larger exit wounds.

Gangly, that sux about the lost deer. But I am confused if your saying had you used something more powerful than the 270 you would possibly have inflicted enbough damage to recover it? because you start off by saying "...the size of the round prolly wouldnt make much of a difference..."

It is interesting how some poeple consider small rounds perfectly fine and others wouldnt use anything smaller than a 7mm mag. I carry a 270 myself and havent lost a hit deer yet. Infact its been given the nickname by my buddies 'the meat grinder" due to how much damage it inflicts. My most messed up deer happens to be my longest shot I have taken, 225yds. After seing this deer hangin with the skin off, one of my dads older freinds made the comment "I'll never hunt with a gun like that". Somehow all but 3 ribs were broken on one side. It took 2 paper towel 'squares' to cover the wound on one side like a bandaid. And the deer dropped, I could tell since it was on snow and it was laying in a big 'splatter' going in the direction I shot, and no blood anywere else. Of course bullet selection makes a difference... its been many years since I could hunt with a riffle but as I recal I was using 140gr Hornady Custom boattails.

But I am guessing the deer would have been just as dead with a 25-0whatever, 260, 280, 30-06... maybe if it was out a 300 yards there might be more a difference between the different choices, but 225 has been my farthest shot, with almost every singe other shot being under 100.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

As well as theregional legal guidelines to min. cartridges, one must consider the different sub species of whitetails as well. While a big deer in the south might weigh a 150lbs on the hoof in the northern regions this is not the case. I personallyfeel the 1/4 bores are a good min here whereour mature bucks can easily top 300lbs on the hoof.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

I firmly believe if i had a larger round that itwouldnt have made a difference. Thats why i said that some shots are bad enough to where it doesnt matter the size of the round. I guess i could have worded a little better or something, but what i was trying to say was that sometimes the shot is horrible and it wouldnt matter what size ammunitions you are using, it wouldnt make a difference like in the deer i wounded. However, in some cases haveing a larger round would definately be of assistance, I just dont ever want to have to come across that situation so I try to stay a little over-gunned so that it never happens. I dont needto hunt with my 30-30 or my 30-06, but i just feel more secure in making a good clean kill shot witheither of those rifles at 200 yards than shooting at a deer head 200 yards away with a 22-250 or a gun ofthe same sorts.I just think its best to go bigger and go for a more realistic and larger target(chestor broadside)shot (not that there arent plenty of people capable of doing deer head shots at 200 yards), but the margin of error is a lot worse when shooting at a head.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

As much as most of us have tried to explain it, bullets and blades kill in different ways! They will never learn!
I think that most of the "magnum" shooters get the idea, that shooting with the biggest caliber that you can consistantly shoot well with, gives you the best room for error, and that we are for the most part, "overguned" above the '06 range.
It's mostly the "pea-shooters" that I don't get! There is NO "world record" for the "biggest deer with the smallest caliber!" Nor is there any "world record for "hitting hair number 1001 on the neck/head!
"Because I can," is a poor excuse, if it is the only reason that you can give for doing it!
Marksmanship is an important factor, but it is only one factor in "hunting!"
You might be able to out-shoot me, or the next guy, with your off-hand, weak-eye, and a seven day hang-over! So what? You don't have to qualify with a 1/2" group to be a hunter, a 3 or 4" circle is almost twice as small as a reasonable kill zone! As I said, there are no records for that in the hunting world! That is for competition shooting on a gun range!
Shooting something that is so light, that there is absolutely no room for error, is as much or more irresponsible as using something that you can't shoot with your eyes open, thinking that if you miss, the "air wave" will still kill it!

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

yeah our deer are 90 percent big Mule deer where i hunt. I have taken most of my deer with the 308, 6.5x55, 270 and 7MM-08. In that order. Its darn close between the 6.5 and 308. The 25-06 would come next followed by the 250 Savage. The only deer I ever lost was with the 243. I have probably used ten other calibers as well.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

The reason that I wouldnt take my .223 out hunting with me where I would be leaving the house is because here on my property I have a shooting blind and a feeder set up about 25 yards away. I also have a range set up with targets at 25, 50 and 100 yards and I am very comforatable shooting here where I have a bench with a rest to shoot off from. Out in the woods I would have to be shooting off hand and I just wouldnt be confident enough to take that shot with a .223. Sorry if that is hard to understand, but I dont know how else to explain it. The main reason though is because I dont want to loose a deer and have a game warden showing up at my door wondering why I shot at a deer with an illegal caliber of rifle.....

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

I agree with the original statement.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Its you that hasnt learned. Read up on terminal ballistics, I have posted links a million times, I guess you dont read them. The fact of the matter is a bullet a knife and a arrow all kill the same way. BY blood loss or neuro damage. While a bullet does kill faster its nothing magical ,its massive hemorraging (sp) Bullets crush arteries while arrows cut them. A bullet will not kill an animal if not hit in the vitals, period period period. You have to spill its blood. Is that so hard to understand ?

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

I think you just answered yourself. You are the one that was saying it is "idiotic" to shoot a deer with a bow. Then you go to say you have to spill blood and hit them in the vitals. Maybe if you would practice up some, you wouldn't have wounded/unrecovered deer and hogs running around.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Dont put words in my mouth, I never said bowhunting was idiotic,reread my post and you'll see a point I am trying to make.
Practice, sheeesh. That wasnt the problem.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Way to make us all agree JagMan!!!

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

So let me get this right. You shoot 4 deer and 1 hog with a bow and never recover one of them. These were all perfectly placed shots, with razor sharp broadheads? Something has to give here.......

You did take off the field points and put on broadheads, right??? Or do the field tips give you the precision accuracy like the Whorenet.....;)

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

I think zrex, has allowed us to see the chink in his armor, he doesn't practice.:D

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Sorry, neighbor, still can't see the difference between your blind and feeder @ 25yds vs the same in a hunting lease 5 miles from your home, as an example.IF you areusing the same basic setup elsewhere, why would you be shooting offhanded? Not that I approve of such hunting "tactics" like sniping deer with smallish rounds, mind you..[:'(]
Anyway, you have a nice evening and a better one tomorrow. :D

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

No, I really believe its you tthat does'nt understand terminal ballistics!
OK, if dead is dead, everything from a heart attack to a Mack truck kills in the same way!
You can cut and paste all you want to, it doesn't change the fact that cutting, and bullets kill in totally different ways!

When it comes to blades, there is vertually no expansion! It the "cut" that causes blood loss, while the surrounding tissue is vertually undamaged. Here "sharpness" is more of the key to penetration and damage vs. bullets (and when is the last time that you "cut" yourself with a bullet?) which rely on energy and expansion to do the job!
Of course, a "field point" COULD possibly kill a deer, but I don't know of any place that a field point is legal! Small calibers are a bit more leathal than field points but, both are irresponsible in reality!

Again, my question is WHY? There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to be served by using small calibers, or head/neck shots for that matter!
No record books, no recoil savings, no meat savings, NOTHING!

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

I don't agree with your statement in bold. An animal can die by other than a vital hit from an arrow, bullet, etc.
Ie:
You hit them in the guts they will die!! You hit them in the jaw on a botched head shot they will die!! You may never find them because of the lack of blood spill but they willnot survive all non vital hits.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Energy is as important in archery, without enough energy driving your super sharp broadhead it probably wouldn't penetrate deep enough to cause enough damage/wound channel. A friend once did a visual demo to prove his case, he dropped an arrow onto a ham and it pierced enough to stick, barely. He shot the same ham using a 36" compound at 10 yds firing at 275 fps and got a nice pass through. So I'd say energy and sharpness go hand in hand.

This I agree on, wholeheartly, with prehaps the one exception I'd always make :only thing available and your kids are hungry.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

I knew I would have to explain myself, sigh.....this is going to be long.
An arrow is very deadly when all things come together. The problem with bowhunting is "expierence" is the best teacher, and thats where the problem begins. If you have no one with expierence to help you, you have to learn it all on your own. But that comes at a high price, usually at the expense of lost animals.
The very first deer I lost was about 13 years ago , it would have been my first kill, but didnt have the expierence and made a poor shot because of broadheads, didnt knowfixed bladeswouldnt fly the same. Hard lesson learned.Loss # 1
Got them tuned and ready to go. Nothing happens the next couple of years. Then mechanical broadheads come out and I switch because of the bad taste left in my mouth by fixed blades. Well I make several kills a year and everything is perfect untill I had a hard time tracking one which went on neigbors property.I did find it though, but a bulb goes off in my head, hey what about a string tracker. So I purchase one and do some testing and everything is shooting great. I made a shot on a doe and that damn string caught on something, dont know if it was the bow itself or a limb, either way I hear the loud snap of the string and my arrow sails off target. I made a hit and it was in the vital area just not perfect, little high and didnt pass through, no string to track as it snapped, no blood trail. Didnt find it before the yotes. loss# 2. Used the string tracker again and made a few more kils without a glitch, then it happens again, string snaps on something arrow goes off mark, luckily I hit liver and the deer didnt go 10 yds before piling up. Well kerplunk, there goes the stringtracker in the trash.
Fast forward a couple of years and a few kills without a hitch. Then here comes a hog at a meer 12 yds, draw aim and shoot, damn! the hog takes that one step as I release and my arrow hits far back with little penetration, forget about it, he never slowed down and no telling how far and how long he lasted. Loss# 3
Fast forward a couple more years to this year. I have been using some mechanicals from walmart and they have been working fine, took 3 deer last year with them.
Well I took a doe this year, complete pass through and found her right away. Then I take another one, aim release and CRACK ! what the hell just happened. zero penetration and the deer runs off with all my arrow sticking out and arrow falls to the ground. I'm like what just happened ?
retrieve arrow and of course zero blood, blade bent, deers gone, at least that deer will live. Still dont know what happened suspectI hit the elbow bone. also suspect mechanicals, thats 2 so far with poor penetration , remeber the hog. So thats loss #4
Take a beautiful 8 pointer a couple of days later, bam! complete pass through deer goes down within eye sight.
Last week take aim on another beautiful 8 pointer, aim release and CRACK ! Aw crap here we go again, what the hell happened, again perfect shot and poor penetration. Deer runs off. Start tracking an hour later, find arrow, broken blade and 8 inches of penetration with good blood. searched for days never found him. Even looked this afternoon again. Nothing. I believe it's those damn mechanicals, it's like they are crumpling on impact like the front of a car during a collision. Thats 2 deer and 1 hog with poor penetration. My bow is shooting 276-282 fps second. It blows clean through them almost all the time untill I switched to those cheap expandables. "Eastman Outfitter archery".
So you see. expierence comes at a high price when archery hunting. I will never shoot mechanicals again, ever. I already am tuned and set up using 4 blade 100 gr muzzy's.
Can I say I wont lose one again, no. What else am I going to learn ?

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Yeah, Eastman sucks for mech heads.. I used them for about 3 trips out and off they went. Weird thing is the performed okay in practice.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

My point EXACTLY!
YOUR words, not mine!
The #1 reason AGAINST head/neck shots, especially with smaller calibers!
Animals are unpredictable! Aim for the vitals, with a caliber suitable for the vitals, a quick sure kill, even if they make that sudden move at the time of the shot!

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Sorry your still wrong, bullets kill by blood loss nothing more, shoot a deer in the ham and dont hit an artery and you wont kill squat. You have to put a hole in an artery somewhere or hit the spine or brain. I already said that a bullet kills faster because of massive hemmoraging over an arrow, but they still put a hole in the arteries. Bullets expand and leave little petals that do actually cut.

And why use a small caliber ?
Why use a bow ?
Why use a flint lock?
Why use a pistol ?
Why use a super duper magnum at 1000 yds ?
why use a crossbow ?

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Actually a gut shot is a vital shot, they will bleed to death. Now a jaw shot is not, and technically the bullet didnt kill them, starvation or infection did.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Do you realise how fast a bullet gets to 50 yds, compared to a bow at 20.
Somebody with some time figure that out. I will venture to say a bullet will hit 300 yds before a bow will reach 20 if fired at the same exact time.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Zrex, why dont you start using a sensible caliber, and start aiming for the vitals? Then you wouldn't have to come in here and stick up for yourself, and bore us to death with your "theories".

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

All of the above can make clean, quick kills to the vitals! The same cannot be said of ultra small calibers!

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

a bow shooting 272fps to go 20 yards .22 seconds
a rifle shootin 3000fps to go 300 yards .3 seconds

I think that is right. I haven't had any math classes for a while! LOL

But then again - a rifle going 300 yards is going to loose lots of energy/velocity, which isn't taken into consideration.
A bow shooting 20 yards isn't going to lose near as much energy/velocity.

I got nothing - its too late to be figuring numbers!

Then again - I don't know if a hornet will even go 300 yards and hit the desired target in the desired spot [:'(]

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

he he, dont think for a minute I shoot 300 yds with the hornet, I use the hornet as I would my bow, close range, maybe just a tad farther.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Please, the straws for which you are grasping are very short.[:o] I don't consider the guts a vital(nor doI know any hunters who do). I certainly won't consider a wound inflicted by a hunter that lead to death a non lethal action. Whether blood loss, starvation or predator was the final nail in the coffin is moot as they died as result of previous actions or other than natural manners.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Any of those above could be called unethical if you wanted to pick it apart, you choose not to. 1000 yd shooting is 10 times more difficult than a 50 yd neck shot, sorry. Bow hunting is 10 times more difficult than a 50 yd neck shot, sorry. Your one of the people that are "my way" or its the wrong way.

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Zrex, why not use a sensible caliber, and aim for the vitals?

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Ya, well you know what I meant the first time, and you go and get all technicall. So back at you. A gut shot deer is direclty associated with death by bleeding caused by the bullet. Not so if hit in the jaw, foot ,leg etc. Any artery is a vital shot whether it be one in the intestine or in the femur. To kill an animal quickly and humanely you have to punch a whole in an artery and where better to do it than right through the boiler room, tons of arteries there. Does it make sense now ? Why not shoot a deer in the ass ? I mean bulletshave tons of energyand kill different than knifes or arrows, shoot them in the ham, or the stomach or wherever you choose, You dont have to hit them inthe arteries right ?

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

I'm not trying to upset anyone nor am i going to argue with anyone, especially zrex, a gut shot is not a vital shot. Period.
as far as headshots are concerned, you must have a good taxidermist. Sewing up all your incredible headshots must be a chore.

Out of everthing you have said in this thread i hope you come away with this cause its been said more times than i can count.

i think Chantecler has said it best.

Zrex, why dont you start using a sensible caliber, and start aiming for the vitals? Then you wouldn't have to come in here and stick up for yourself, and bore us to death with your "theories".

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

For which I felt the need to reply silly me...puta![:@]

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

I do, I have a .243 for longer shots. I'm telling you, areas I hunt, shots dont exceed 50 yds. I honestly would have to find a spot just to be able to shoot over 50 yds. And the area isgetting kinda populated. The bow and the Hornet are challenging, it would be no fun shooting 15 yds with a .243 that has a bull barrell and a 6x18x50mm scope. Dude, I am a neck and head shooter, until the ranges start to exceed 100-150 yds. You will never change that. Been doing that for 25 + years. Whats the difference in shooting squirrels or rabbits in the head ? Do you think a wounded rabbit is any less of importance than a wounded deer ?

RE: Could This Be ONE agreeable Point on this Forum???!!!
 

Get a .300 Win Mag, hit them in the vitals, and at those kinda ranges, the deer will drop within 15 yards every time.