RE: .280?
 

Sorry ColoradoElk,I was responding to BrutalAttack, not you sir. Tom.

RE: .280?
 

What inabilitydoes the.284 to handle a large bullet are you refering to??.308 diameter bullet the one the 06 uses in 200 gr variety is equal to .284 diameter bullet in SD which makes up terminal performance. Where will you use your 06' with 200 gr bullet that makes my 7mm rem magwith 175 gr bullet unable? In reality very few use the 200 gr class and above with an 06'. 150-180 gr are most commonly used, compare them to the 140-160 class of .284 and your playing equal pool. The difference in game performance between the 2 bullets is spliting hair very fine. Any elk guide that refused me a hunt with my 7mm rem mag and suited bullet for the task in lieu of a 3006...:eek:is all I am saying. I understand the idea of bigger is better but the 06' in .308 class isn't it, sorry!

Cost of ammo has never been my concern, small amount in comparison to the invested or spent on the sport each year. In any regards I reload so the cost is not that different in the components for the 2.

Nobody here is suprised how popular the 06' is...your post isn't a news flash. Why is it so popular, availability and age. Good cartridge sure but the best in its class not IMO.

Resale here for the 06 is not higher than any other standard cartridge. It is lower than magnums generally. I have no clue what is running off the shelf nor doI really care but factory ammo for 270, 308, 3006, 7mm rem mag, 300 wm is common and found virtually everywhere that sells ammo. Demand = supply so they must be leaving the shelf.


280 vs 3006 spliting hairs in performance as a handloader. As a factory shell user I agree the 06' is better suited. However IMO the 7mm rem mag a .284 chucker is equally applicable for the factory shell buyer.It hasn't showed me any loss to my 30 cal shooting buddies on the terminal side of things.BTWI use it to shoot more than deer,elk and moose are regulars for me. This year I harvested my 5th bull elk in as many years with the lowly .284 cal.Several moose have fallen to it as well. All 1 shot kills and never tracked any further than 100 yards.I'll choose the 7mm rem mag over the 06' any day.

Just my opinion though.

Enjoy your 280 frontier gander.:D

RE: .280?
 

The original comparison was between the 280 and the 30-06. The 7mm Rem was not even mentioned(by me). I agree with you on the mag, but I disagree on the 280(remember most hunters do not reload). I was merely trying to defend my position on the 280 vs 30-06. I do not prefer the 30-06. As a matter of fact I enjoy doing most of my deer and elk hunting with my 1886 Winchester in 45-70.

I do not believe an elk guide would throw anyone out of camp. However I do believe he would rather see a 30-06 with 180's or 200's, insted of a 280 with 150's or 175's.I think the 280 has it's place. The problem is it can be grouped with alot ofcartridges that are pretty much the same.I just believe that in this current market alot of the cartridges, and some of the oldies are going to go the way of, dare I say 284 Winchester. I believe the 280 is one of those cartridges.

I feel as if I have hijacked this thread and I did not mean too. I did not mean to step on any toes. However I still stand by my statements, and if you reread them I think you will to. Tom.

RE: .280?
 

All you have to do is crack open a Blue Book to see which guns are worth more. There is a difference between what guns are worth and which guns sell more. There is probably more 30-30s sold every year than anything else does that make the guns worth more? Of course not. Don'tbe silly. The guns that are worth the most are rare, plain and simple. Nice try though.

In case you don't realize: I kill animals for a living. I've killed more elk this spring than you have your whole life. I would, and have taken a .280 over an '06 every time.

If you're going try tostep to me and make a statement of that type, you'd better have some well thought out reasons and not this lame "go ask any elk guide" crap.

If you think it's the truth than at least take the time to find some solid reasons why I should believe you.

RE: .280?
 

You appear to be struggling with this whole physics thing. There are two components to the kinetic energy a bullet generates: mass and velocity. You can get the same result by pushing a light bullet faster or by using a slower heavier bullet.

This is why a 5.7 will penetrate class III body armor but a 9mm wont. So much for your big bullet theory.

If you think that 20 grains in bullet weight between a 7mm and a 308 big game bulletshas any dropoff in performance than you're fooling yourself. A 150 gr bullet pushed faster than a 180 grain bullet can out perform the 180 gr.

It's simple physics. If everything though like you we would all use the biggets bullet we could get our hands on. Fortunately we have realized that mass is only part of the equation and not the most important factor.

A 7mm bullet shape is closer to the scientific "ideal" bullet, so it moves more efficiently through the air, enabling it to go faster with less powder and retain more energy downrange.

I should have known you use a 45-70. It's one of what I call "the big wanderers". It's a big bullet that kind of wanders out there at a lesiurely pace. Super ineffecient.

RE: .280?
 

Everybody chill!!!

I don't think the 280 is an "ideal" elk cartridge. I reserve that title for the 338 win. The 280 is a perfect deer cartridge. I much prefer the 280 to the 30-06. My 280 spits out 140 gr. partition hand loadsat 3100 FPS with no signs of pressure.Thats 7 mag velocities, and recoil is pleasant.

RE: .280?
 

why isnt a .280 an elk rifle? i shot my first elk with a .270 and 150 grain bullet and that sucker dropped. 338 is over kill

RE: .280?
 

This has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

RE: .280?
 

It desmonstrates that a smaller bullet pushed very fast will "kill" just as good and sometimes betterthan a larger bullet moving slower (9mm). This is pretty basic stuff man and has everything to do with HEAD's argument.

RE: .280?
 

.270 and .280 are both good elk rifles and are do-it-all cartridges. As far as elk go nothing is overkill unless the cartridge hampers your ability to deliver a shot on vitals every single time.

RE: .280?
 

I call b.s. on this statement also. You have any "scientific" evidence for this?

I could be wrong, I just wanted to get in on all this nonsense.:D

RE: .280?
 

More b.s. If penetration is the only thing, why wouldn't we all use full jacketed bullets? Why do you think bullets are designed to mushroom?

RE: .280?
 

Don't play games with me. A full metal jacket 9mm won't do the same thing that a full metal jacket 5.7 would do. How hard is that to understand?

When did I tell anyone to use FMJ? Why would you want to on an animal?

That was the example that sprang to mind where a smaller bullet moving faster outperformed a larger bullet moving slower.

Research the 5.7 yourself and you won't have to act confused and go off on these tangental arguments.

RE: .280?
 

Exactly how many elk have you killed this spring? What exactly is your profession? You have a website you can point us to, or are there others on this board that can verify what you are saying?

Again, just trying to be a part of the nonsense.:D

RE: .280?
 

By the way, I haven't seen any elk wearing class 3 body armour lately.

RE: .280?
 

I joined this website to make friends, not enemies. However I do enjoy a spirited debate. I was recently injured, and now find myself in a physically handicapped position, but not a mentally handicapped position. And you are right about one thing I did have a hard time with physics in college, but I did end up with a B.

I find myself with Cascadedad, and I am not buying it either.

I have only shot 5 elk. 2 with ML, 1 with 45-70, 1 with 340 WM,and 1 with 30-06. All were shot at less than 150 yards, and none went 100 yards after shot.

I have discussed calibers with elk guides a couple of dozen times in my life time. You are the first guide that I have talked to who recommends a smaller caliber and bullet. I know quite a few elk hunters, and again you are the only one who says the smaller bullet is better. I have probably read 100 articles in my life about elk cartridges, again you are the first one who seems to think that smaller is adequate. I do agree with you that if a hunter can not handle a larger caliber or bullet that he should stay away from it, but what does that have to do with your charts.

I envy your position as a guide who gets to kill alot of elk, it must be a fun life. I am sure your "spring" comment was just a typo. I hope you get to shoot a monster, and do it for me, because my elk hunting days are probably over, but I can hope. Fortunately for me I have alot of good friends that will help me in my deer hunting endeavors. I am currently having a Kawasaki Mulemodified so that I can getback into the woods as soon as possible. Tom.

RE: .280?
 

Head, sorry to hear about your injury. I hope you are back hunting in no time.

I came to this website primarily to learn, but I can't help jumping in when someone is spouting nonsense. These guys often answer with, "Show your proof!". But they make wild claims and then when they are called on it they can't answer.

Maybe BA can, I don't know. I don't buy into energy being the only factor. Bullet design factors in. Bullet diameter is also a factor. I think the point was already made. Why do LEO's prefer a .40 or .45 over a 9mm?

Somebody please tell me what body armor has to do with any of this?

RE: .280?
 

I really like the 7mm's, and i love my custom 7 express Rem.... I've harvested aLOT of game with it, and it's served me well.... BUT, i have to admit, if i was going to use a cal for a steady diet of "bigger" game (read moose) i'd pick the 30-06 every time over the 7 express/280... I don't give a crap what the load tables say!

Only proof i have, is the 25 years of hunting big animials in Alaska and another 20years + in otherstates and Canada... I reload everything and rarely buy factory ammo, and in my life when it came to guns, money was "nearly" no object, because if i wanted it i figured out how to get it! PEROID!!

So, all the proof i can offer is my years of hunting with all of the cals mentioned in this thread so far, andmany more for weeks at a time in the bush, a few months out of every year...

BTW, "If" being paid by the goverment to shoot animials makes you a pro, i've done that too so i guess ? i'm a pro???

DM

RE: .280?
 

Sorry I do get a little fired up at times.

That wasn't a typo, I'm not a guide I'm an agent more like. And yes, it's a blast!


Don't mistake me: I'm not saying a smaller bullet is better but neither am I saying a bigger bullet it better. They will do damage just the same and as far as the "ballistic ideal" it's an accepted fact that the 7mm is closer to ideal.

Good luck to you. No matter what you want to do be it hunting or whatever you can find a way. I hope you get out there soon.

RE: .280?
 

Bullet design does factor in and I've never said anything that can even be construed as the contrary. That is why I always say that a bullet designed for big game will kill in any caliber be it 7mm, 260 or .338.

Bullet diameter isn't a factor in theory, but mass is. If diameter matteredwe would still be lobbing giant cannon balls instead of pushing very small projectiles very fast.

Look at the 270 WSM. It pushes a 150 gr bullet over 3000 fps and makes more energy than a .308 using a 180 gr bullet.

The 5.7 is .223 caliberand in 40 gr. FMJit can penetrate class III body armor while a 150 gr. 9mm FMJ cannot. So I ask you: whyisn't the bigger bullet better performer?

Because the 5.7 is going 2200 fps out of a pistol and the 9mm is barely making 1000 fps. This causes the 5.7 to make as much energy as a 9mm with a bullet almost1/4ththe mass.

So in answer to your question: the LEO's prefer a .45 over a 9mm because it makes more energy at 50 than a 9mm does at the muzzle! Believe me, if they could get that kind of energy out of a smaller diamter bullet (which they can it's the .357 SIG) then I'm sure they'd be all for getting it.

Why do they prefer the .45 over the .357 mag? The mag makes more energy but it doesn't come in a convient 11 round magazine or compact rapid fire package...until the SIG.

But then you get into the politics of "pet" cartridges etc....



In the kinetic energy equation, velocity is squared where mass is not.


What I haven't touched on is how bullet design transfers that kinetic energy into the target but that is a whole nother discussion.

I'll leave it at this: bigger bullet is not always better. Kinetic energy and transferring that kinetic energy into the target is the king.

RE: .280?
 

I think that there seems to be some mixing of facts. A 150 grain .284 bullet and a 150 grain .308 bullet are the same amount of projectile. The fact that one can create a larger ENTRY hole isn't really telling much. Bullet construction and velocity mean a heck of a lot more than the diameter, especially the minimal difference between .284 and .308. Basically we're talking about 7mm and 7.5 mm (approx).
There is such a small difference between the .280 and the 30/06 I wouldn't even bother with choosing between the 2. If there were 2 identically equipped rifles except for chamber, one being 30/06 and the other being .280 I would be happy to be carrying either afield.
There is no question though, availablility of ammo is a key consideration to those that don't handload, and therefore marketability is definitley affected.

RE: .280?
 

Your experience is fine, there is nothing wrongwith the '06,but you can't deny the physics. X mass bullet going X fps^2 makes X amount of energy.

Velocity is more important than physics which is why we don't keep designing larger bullets, we design ways to push the bullets we use faster.

BTW: "If" you do something for a living and you're good at it then I think you can be considered a "professional" and I'm not one to brag but it seems like "experience" goes alot further around here than "logic" so I guess I can pull the experience card too.

Funny how experience only seems to matter when other people use it as some kind of proof, but when I do all the sudden being a "pro" doesn't mean a thing! Make up your mind you can't have it both ways! Oh darn there's that silly logic thing again! Keeps getting in the way....

RE: .280?
 

Yes. Bullet design is very important because you can make all the energy in teh world but if it doesn't transfer into the target it's wasted. That is why we want a big game bullet that will mushroom and lodge against the opposite hide, thus expending all it's energy inside the target.

Like I said in the beginning: all the mainstream big game calibers are pretty much the same within 300 yards. It's splitting hairs like I said.

RE: .280?
 

Damn, this has been fun and I havn't even stirred the pot at all. Brutal. I want my bullet to pass completely thru, a better blood trail. That little extra sd the 7 mm has on paper is just that (on paper) as it will not become evident at any intelligent hunting range. And my main use of paper is to wipe my butt.;)

RE: .280?
 

Sorry Brutal but you are mistaken. Energy is not the deciding factor in what kills. The hole and tissue damage is. A bullet that stops inside an animal will not leave as much damage as one that fully mushrooms and blows through an animal. That talk about expending all it's energy is farse.

RE: .280?
 

Um....that is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard a hunter say. I hope you're kidding! [&o]


I never said a thing about SD. You sure you don't mean "wipe your brow"? lol ;)

RE: .280?
 

Actually this is the dumbest thing I have heard a hunter say.You my friend still have a lot to learn.

RE: .280?
 

All I can say to that is.....wow.

You really have no clue what a bullet is supposed to do.

But then again judging by your bullet choice on that deer I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

Then you have the nerve to tell me I have alot to learn?

LOL......wow.

Well if nothing else you've impressed me with your idiocy.

RE: .280?
 

I really dont feel like typing right now. I'll just say this. A bullet an arrow and a knife all kill in the same way, and it has nothing to do with energy or energy transfer.

RE: .280?
 

HEAD0001, heated debate amongest friends is a common thing, the end results is usually agree to disagree and move on;)!

Best of luck to you. I admire the determination you show and realize how much it takes to overcome the cards in which you'vebeendealt. I have a daughter whohas Muscular Dystrophy, it is so severe she is confined to a wheelchair and has very limited muscular function. Though she is an amazing little girl and done more than my wife or I had ever invisioned. Attends regular school and extremely smart(brains came from momma I recon;)), operates a power chair, mouse, etc with her feet and hand over hand on the flooris a pretty good little writer and artist. She has done more in her 7.5 years on earth than I could in lifetime, a sweetheart and blessing to our family.

RE: .280?
 

It is funny how life can make such big things to some people look so small to others. I will say a prayer for her tonight. Tom.

RE: .280?
 

Skeeter give that little girl a hug from me! After all this crap slinging and fun rubbing you had to go and spoil it. You remind us what really matters in this life.( And I was having fun with Brutal)

RE: .280?
 

Thanks fellas, not my intent just wanted to letHEADknow I have an idea what he is going through and respect him very much for it.

Keep slingin' and rubbing that is what is fun about this sport and site;)!

RE: .280?
 

Go with the browning A-bolt and you will never be sorry.