RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

1928ftlbs-1833ftlbs is still only 95ftlbs again a long way from 300ft lbs.And a person is free to use whatever ammunition brand that they choose.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Are you really that ignorant ballistics wise to believe that.If you really knew anything about ballistics ,you would know that those velocities and energies are posted for a given barrel length.Now what do you suppose would happen if I took that box of ammunition rated at 3000fps in a 24" barrel and fired it in a 28" barrel.If you really had a clue you would know that with all else being equal,the velocity would be higher.Given that energy is based on velocity,so would the energy.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

I agree. They are very close. However, if you recall my post I said "the potential for 300 ft/lbs" more energy. I can argue semantics too. ;)


Just out of curiousity I looked at Remington and they offer 15 models in .308 and 6 models in 7mm-08.

So by your logic we should go with what the sales say because if people buy it more then obviously it performs much better right? That is basically what you were saying.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Simmer down pardner.

You're not listening. What I'm saying is: If a 110 lb woman feels that a .308 kicks a little too hard then there are things as a shooter she can do to reduce her felt recoil. Butt pad, shoulder pad etc etc.

However, she can't force a 7mm-08 to magically produce more energy.

So what I'm saying is you should take the extra performance edge that the .308 offers and if the .308 kicks a little more than the 7mm-08 there are things you can do to make it kick like a 7mm-08.

I don't know why your getting all worked up about barrel length. When did that enter the discussion?

An intelligent person would have to assume that barrel length is equal when comparing these numbers otherwise it wouldn't really be a comparison. You can check it if it makes you feel better.My catalogs say thesenumbers are out of a 24" barrel.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Not magically,but by simply installing a longer barrel on the rifle,she can have it produce more energy with the same cartridge.

I introduced barrel length after you made the totally idiotic statement below.

But apparently you still don't comprehend how that is possible,even though I explained it to you.

In fact you are probably naive enough to believe thatall 308rifles actually produce the velocities listed on the federal and Hornady werb sites.Even ifthe barrel is the same length as listed in the tables,the velocities produced byfactory rifles are usually less than those listed in the tables.The reason for this is that most test barrels used to test loads,have chambers cut to minimum specifications which results in higher chamber pressures and more velocity than is produced in factory barrels.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

I don’t care what anybody said, my 7mm-08 and I are going hunting in 3 weeks...

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

While the recoil of a 308 is by no means bad it is definately more than 7mm-08.

Yeah but those same things that will make a 308 kick like a 7mm-08 will make a 7mm-08 kick like a 243. Hands down a woman or child is better off with a 7mm-08.

And while thereare more types of 308 ammo out there there is by no means a limited selection of 7mm-08. 14 different options at the one website where I checked in fact. If one of those 14 don't fit your needs then it's time to start reloading.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

IMO, shoot what you have be it 308 or 7mm-08. ANYONE who shoots the short action 308 should NOT be bragging about a huge energy deposit. Really you have to shoot H.E. loads to get that performance in the 1st place :D Big whoop, 2000ftlb @ 300. Why stop there? The 30-06 can get around 2300ft lb at that distance compared to 2000 from the 308 at my elevation. Wow, another 300 ft/lbs. Why stop there? The 300 win gets nearly 2600ft lb at 300yds. Why stop there? The 300RUM gets over 2900ft lb @ 300yds. I'm just getting started. The 338 RUM steps up to over 3300 ft/lbs at 300yds. The point is, we can keep on going on with ballistics and slight improvements. But you know what? Why get beaten up too much for the job? Maybe you like the lighter recoiling 7mm-08, which to some shooters the difference is great. Get over it! These cartridges are so similar its useless to argue over, it's what the shooter needs; the 7mm-08 shooter might prefer the trajectory, wind drift, recoil etc. and maybe the 308 shooter prefers the cheap and great variety of ammo, and doesn't care about kick.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Hehehehe.. I'm not about to get involved in a p*****g contest about one cartridge being "better" than another similar cartridge but I'll add my two cents..

The 7mm-08 is very close ballistically to the 7 x 57 , which has been killing all kinds of critters efficiently for over 100 years... It uses the same bullet, and if you shoot anything from a woodchuck to an elk with it in a vital area, said critter will expire very quickly, usually in a matter of seconds...

I like the 7mm-08 because it has mild recoil, NOTICEABLY milder than most .308s, 30-06s, .280s or even .270s that I've shot and it does the job very efficiently..

I've had good luck on deer with the 140 Nosler ballistic tip at around 2800 FPS...This year I'm trying the 120 Barnes TSX loaded to about 3000 FPS..It shoots very accurately in my rifle and some posters on another forum have been singing its praises as an excellent game bullet..

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

I just came back in from the shop. Interesting exchange here in the past six hours. Brutal Attack . . . . where did you come up with such a handle? Let me constructively suggest you change that name to "A Little Thin on Experience". There are a bunch of folks on this board with a lot of depth of experience. Folks like Stubblejumper, Big Country, James B, Drilling Man, Rebel Hog . . . many more. You can't jump in here and start making statements like "the 7mm-08 is an ineffective elk round" or "experience doesn't account for much"without taking shots across the bow. Ask constructive questions . . . try to learn from the many who are more than willing to share their knowledge - which was derived from personal experience. . . . . Things will go better. :)

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

LOL. You can never have too many guns

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

For your information I'm a professional hunter/agent for a government agency. I'm also a trained scientist.I shootfor a living. Sorry if I'm not a back-woods hill-billy, sorry it seems you value that more than logic.

I'm only 26 and I've probably killed more elk this spring with my .308 than you have in the last 5 years.

If you think personal experience tells the whole story it isn't me that's misguided or inexperienced.

I made my points and I didn't have to "because I know more than you". You seem to think that's a valid reason for me to listen to you, yet you offer nothing to back it up other than you "experience".

By no means am I saying the 7mm-08 isn't any good, I don't recall saying that. What I'm saying is, I don't think it's a better choice than a .308 for the reasons I've set forth.

Disagree? Fine then you better be prepared to back it up with some factual material. Not this "I've got x years on you youngster" BS.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Was I bragging? Even if I wasn't I should be. That's good numbers from a .308. I used to shoot the 300s but when your at the range as much as I am it just doesn't work.

For an all around cartridge the .308 is probably the best choice when you consider everything: energy, ammo cost/availability, recoil, rifle offerings, accuracy.

If your only shooting 50 rounds a year at the range and at game then maybe a larger cartridge is for you. Not for someone that shoots hundreds of rounds a year.

Also the .308 isn't a long range elk gun (niether is a 7mm-08) and I never presented it as such. I compare everything at 300 yards because that is what I feel is the max range that the normal person should be shooting at.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Yes Brutal I too am tired of the age game coming into play, I don't care if your a Dinosaur, if someone is better than you they are better than you.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Wow impressive,and they are so hard to hunt in spring with no hunting pressure,especially in calving season.You sound as proud of that as the guys that shoot elk in corrals,and call it hunting.:D:D:D

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

I shoot several hundred rounds of high powered rifle rounds every year.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Yeah I'm sure alot of people are going to go rebarrel their rifle because they don't like the velocity they're gettingb. Not really feasible in terms of this discussion.

Oh so now we shouldn't believe the ammuntion makers? Well what else do we have to go by? Do you think that the average person doesn't have access to a chrono and a 24" barrel?

That is rediculous. They don't just feed the publicinflated numbers knowing they can check it with a $40 chrono.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Feasible or not it would increase the energy which proves your statement wrong.

The ammunition makers are not lying.The velocitynumbers that they post are thevelocities that they obtained with their test rifles.As I posted previously and you apparently weren't able to comprehend,they use custom barrels with chambers cut to minimum standards which produce more chamber pressure and therefore morevelocity.In this way they are reasonably sure that the ammunition will not produce excessive pressure in factory rifles with more generous chamber dimensions.And since you haven't quoted a single chronographed velocity,you obviously haven't chronographed your own rifle.

Can't they.They fooled you and you claim to be a scientist.:D:D:D

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Yes I have chronographed my M 111 Savage in .300 Win mag with a 24" barrel and I used Federal PowerShok ammo and the velocity was as stated on the ammo's box. 180 Gr at 2960.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

I was surprised to read that from the statements you havemade...

You flat out said a 308 has less recoil than a 7-08

You couldn't figure out why folks were compareing lighter bullets in the 7 compared to the 30

And you seem to discount anyones opinion if it doesn't agree with yours...

I could go on, but those points alone just don't fit in with a "trained scientist" who is suposed to be trained to have an open mind. As for the bullet weight differences, you'd never have to wonder about that if you knew what a bullets "SD" has to do with it's performance... Also, a trained scientist that can't figure out the math of recoil between two different calibers????

And now, on top of all that, you even think "practical experience" has little no value either!!

Dang, i've met some scientist, and none of them were as wishy washy with there answers as you are, UNLESS they were talking waaaay out of there field of expertise!

DM

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

IMHO they both are great calibers...I think SA rounds are the Sheeit! Both definitely have their place and I wouldnt feel undergunned with either for and antlered game...

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Look at the numbers. I don't have to say anything. My points have been made. Personal attacks are a common tactic when other arguments fail.

Personal experience means very little for the reasons I stated above. Don't think so? Bring some information instead of just blowing hard as most of you are fond of doing.

I hear on here alot these "I've been hunting for xx years" and "I've shot xx elk" and other assorted statements that mean nothing. Simply living to a certain age and killing some elk doesn'tqualifiy you as somesort of sage or expert.

A scientist operates under the assumption that the truth may lie outside his realm of experience and must accept the fact that things can exist even if he doesn't see them. It's called unbiased. Numbers are the definition of unbiased information. Anyone who hunts knows thatterminal ballistics in a hunting situationis not always an accurate indicator of cartridge performance simply becuase of all the uncontrollable variables involved. Of course hunters don't hunt in a vaccum but that is the best way to compare cartridges with all things being equal.


It's obvious most of you have issues with that concept, among others.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

You're not qualified to comment on what we do as you have no clue.

Personal attacks are pathetic and immature.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Good for you. You're certainly not average. My shoulder doesn't handle 40 rounds of 338 or 300 win mag every session and I go1-2 timesa week.

It would be irresponsible of me to use a weapon that I can't be 100% reliable with on a daily basis.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

There was NO personal attacks in my post, i spoke the truth, and just pointed it out.... The fact that you kept "changeing your answers" proves that you certainly don't have the "facts" in your favor...

I guess if you don't get it by now, you never will, and that just proves my (and several others) point even more.

DM

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Is your name "stubblejumper"? I didn't quote your post did I?

Yeah your really bring the facts and showing me! Let's see, all you've done so far is tell me that the 7mm-08 is fantastic because you have apparently seen elk die by it. Then you told me that my posts are invalid because you feel I lack personal experience equal to yours. Yeah you really shut me up!


I never changed "my answers". I didn't answer anything, I simply regurgitated basic information that anyone can get if they weren't lazy, ignorant or both.




Don't get what? The fact that I simply posted information you can easily get? Or I don't get that I should be bowing to the superiority of a bunch of self-important blow hards that probably have as much experience as the average redneck but just happened to find their way to a computer?

You guys are whatI like to call "keyboard cowboys". You seem to think that because you're a certain age and have "hunted all your life" that you're some kind of authority.

Your definition of "open minded" is me deferring to your "superior experience".

Well guess what I don't think I'm an authority but I'm for damn sure smart enough to at least go out and try to convince people that my viewpoint is right without the rediculous notion that I've seen it all and have all the answers.

What I have done is researched alot. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass but based on some of your guys' responses you obviously are...

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

No Brutal you see what happened was we got into a forum where everyone is perfect and knows everything....unless your under a certain age and then your just a "close minded" fool.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

It's ironic that you forgot to mention that before I brought it up.Did I jar your memory,or did you have a sudden flashback.And I assume that you fired several rounds and each one was exactly 2960fps.I take it that you did your testing at the exact same temperature as the people at federal as well?:D:D:D:D

I have been around elk at all times of the year,and they are much easier to approach outside of hunting season with no hunting pressure.And you have the gall to brag about the nunber of elk that you have killed this wayas if it makes you a good hunter.:D:D:D


The 308win went from having no recoil at all to having the same or less than the 7mm-08 to having only slightly more that was easy to handle.:D:D

The 308 went from shooting as flat as the 7mm-08 to almost as flat,to the difference didn't matter.:D:D

For supposedly being a scientist,you have no clue as to ballistics or sectional densities,or the effects of barrel length or chamber dimensionson velocity.For a scientist your knowledge is pathetic.:D:D:D

Because of your lack of ballistics knowledge it isn't even possible to have a discussion of ballistics with you.:D:D:D

In thisshootout with myself Roskoe and DM you are unarmed.:D:D

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Ok stubble you got me, I fired ten rounds and two were at 2955, and the rest were at 2960, gee wiz I'm going to go back to the music forum, at least not everyone is an "expert" there, and I don't have to please everyone.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

edit

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Your attitude has certainlychanged from the newcommer that wanted a friend andwas constantlysending me pmsto come see what he wrote or to come help him out in an argument with someone because he had gotten himself in over his head.Then when I told you that unless you changed your attitude,and became more open mindedyou were going to earn a bad reputation on these forums,you react with the quote above.Well that is a good thing because it saves me from having to tell you to go away and quit being a pest.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

LOL this is too funny, you actually take this stuff seriously, all you "experienced" people do is act like the fools you are by talking tough, because thats all you are TALK. StubbleI would love to see the day when you prove anything you've said to be true, in fact buy me a plane ticket and I'll pay you a visit, then you can show me how much of an "expert" you really are, this goes for the rest of you self centered jerks as well, I bet none of you can back up anything you have stated here or anywhere else, as the stuff you have said can easily be looked up on the computer and passed as common knowledge on this forum. So stubble, until I get my plane ticket, just cut the crap.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

I agree ......
I never thought much of the 7mm-08 as an elk cal. either until my brother shot his first with it...One shot behind the front shoulder did the trick.....
I don't know the live weight of the animal but when we took the bull to the butcher the 4 skinned quarters weighed at 500lbs even......
Since then he has shot two other bulls..All big 6x6 royals.The farthest any of these two bulls ran was 100yrds......Both expired befor we arrived to the prey........
I'vewitnessed elk,deer moose that had to be shot two or three times with cal. 30-06 cals and various magums and run just as far if not farther...I've also seen these cals dump them in there tracks (so to speak)
But as with any hunting situation Shot placement is critical but this calhas more than enough energy to bring an elk down...

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Looks to me like Stubblejumper took the time to to point out your "answer changes", in his below answer....

"If" you can't seethat for yourself, maybe a course of "hooked on phonics" would help you out??

DM

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

We should rename this forum "Fight about Guns"!

Why anyone would degrade the 7-08 I don't know!? Any modern "Big Game rifle" with the right bullet is perfectly capable of cleanly killing an Elk. Roy Weatherby's favorite elk gun was the 257 WBY, I suppose he is a retard for using a gun with that small of a bore? This argument is as dumb as arguing whether the 300 Win is better than a 300 WSM! Give me any 7-08 with a 140 partition and put an elk within 150 yds and he is dead!

As far as the guys Jeff mentioned, they are a wealt of knowlede and all have offered very good info, they shouldnt be ripped on, this forum wouldnt be what it is woithout them!

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

To all I wasn't degrading the 7mm-08,I DON"T Like it.The same is true for the 308 win.It's my choice and my opinon.I have shot enough deer with both to form my own opinons on the calibers.
I do like the longer cousins to both the 280 rem and the 30-06.

To me in the rifles I had the 308 kicked more but I was shooting a 180 gr bullets where the 7mm-08 was shooting 140 gr.

The only person that I know of on this board that has killed a elk with a 7mm-08 is Buckshot and he has the pictures to prove it.None of this my brothers,cousins-aunt 3rd removed nephew BS.
If any other of you 7mm-08 elk slayers out there wanna argue thenpost your picks or quit yapping about the 7mm-08 as a elk round.
Thanks and have a GOOOOOOOOOOOODDDD Day;)
BBJ

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Oh there are better rounds for sure!! I would really rather have a 338 RUM or something of that nature, but I dont see why it wouldn't work!

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Hehehehe...Now and then a thread like this sort of takes off andgenerates a life of its own...

I've been frequenting hunting forums for at least eight years now, and I've gleaned a wealth of good information from them ( plus lots of BS) but one of the main reasons I read and post on them is for the ENTERTAINMENT value...

This one has been FUN...:D....

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

Well folks,

I'm just about done with this forum. It was good while it lasted. This used to be a fun and peacefull place to come to. It was a nice diversion from work for a few years. We used to have fun and light hearted discussions/arguments once in a while, but for the most part it was a good exchange of ideas and opinions about a sport we all loved. Now, its all about mudslinging and name calling and "I'm smarter than you". I'm sick of it. So heres what may very well be my parting shot:


Brutal I've tried asking you to tone down your rhetoric to no avail. You are just too arrogant and conceded. You think that because you have a BS and work for the Game and Fish that you are the greatest, smartest swinging d**k in the woods. You'll grow up some day. You think because you go to the range twice a week, and you shoot elk in culling operations that everyone should listen only to you. Well, I'm sick of your attitude. Futhermore, if you are the typical employee of the F&G then my opinion of them is greatly diminished. I think you are suffering from a tremendous case of "Barney Fife" syndrome. And yes this is a personal attack and I fully acknowledge the fact that I've regressed to name calling.

OBTW, I have degrees. One of which happens to be a BS in animal science. Does that make me a "trained Scientist?" I also shoot often, many times surpassing your twice a week standard. Does that make me more of a firearms expert?

I also build custom rifles as a hobby. We consistantly produce sub 1/2 Moa hunting weapons from our garage. Am I suddenly a better gunsmith than Ed Brown? Do I have more knowledge than Gunsmiths who do it for a living day in and day out? I think not.


I'm also a liscensed Scuba Diving Instructor Trainer (that means I teach Instructors I've hunted Big game all over the North American continent. I run a multi million dollar corporation. Does any of this make my opinions more valuable than the next guy? Hell No! Does it give me the right to Discount everyone elses opinions? NO! I wouldn't be as successful as I am if I was that self absorbed and arrogant.

RE: Quit talking about the 7mm-08
 

How old are you? 12? That's how old you sound. If you are actually older then that's really sad.