Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

I have a friend who has decided that he'd like to try hunting this year. He's been thinking about getting a Slug Gun. I've always hunted deer with a rifle or buckshot, and don't know much about Slug Guns.

The places that I plan on taking him will have no shots over 100 yds.

Will a slug gun be OK for him. If so, what guage? Or should I talk him into a rifle?

Do slugs kill as quickly as a rifle?

Thanks, ths78

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

i prefer a rifle they are much more accurate but if he insists get him a 12 gage

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Slugs are better than buckshot, a decent cal. rifle is better than a slug, and also something like a 270 Win., 280 Rem., 7mm-08 will have a lot less recoil than a slug.

Yes, a decent cal. rifle loaded with the "proper bullet weight" will easily kill faster than a slug... At least in my experience that's the way it's been...

Drilling Man

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RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Here in IL. we can't use a rifle so were limited to slug guns or muzzle loaders. But don't be too quick to dismiss a slug gun, they can be fairly cheap, and with the right gun(rifled barrel) and a sabot slug, you can group shot of 2 " at 100yrd. But jeez I sure wish we could use a rifle:D

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Well, maybe what his friend feels comfortable with using, or is already familiar with, is a slug gun and that is what matters most.

I've shot a few true slug guns, some cheap and some not as much, and they were all able to put 3 in 3" at 100yards or better. A few, includig the cheaper H&R would put the right load in 1.5" with a scope, which is as good as, and in some cases better than, alot or most hunting rifles out there.

Slugs usually cost anywhere from $5 to $12 per box box of five, depending on what you shoot. Most riflecartridges (hunting, not cheapimports)cost anywhere from $20 to $40 for a box of 20, NOT counting high end or special made that can be a LOT more expensive.
So that means slugs cost between $1 - $2.40 and rifle cartridges cost on average between .......... $1 - $2 a round.
WOW, those slugs are so much more expensive!!!!!

Recoil? That is almost like comparing the recoil on a trap load and a turkey Mag in a shotgun. Besides,a riflein45-70, 375 H&H, 270 Weatherby Mag and similar will kick a heck of a lot harder than a slug gun, especially whan shot out of a rifle just as light.

Trajectories are no worse than any other projectile of similar weight and velocity. Unless you are thinking of using a 2 3/4" Reduced Power Brinki slug out of an old smoothbore shotgun. Then yes, they don't shoot near as far or accurately, otherwise they are great for 100 yard or less.

Questionable killing power?????????????????????????????
You have got to be kidding, right! Have you ever actually seen someone hit something with one?Or are you just relying on what you heard or "learned" elsewhere, and probably someone who also never had any experience either? Or was it one of those "it takes at least X foot pounds of energy to kill a animal of Y size, therefore........ yet going by the calculations most good deer cartridges should be just as bad" type of web-sites or magazine articles?
You put a shot in the right place and you will knock down any deer at 100 yard just as well as any rifle, you hit it at less than 50 yard and it will look like you just punched it with a sledge hammer. You just see and hear a big "whummp" and it collapses on the spot. I mean I have actually watched and you do see the shockwave heave the deer's chest when it hits.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

I always say shoot what you're comfortable with. Slug guns do just fine up to 100 yards. Definately want a rifle after that.

While I choose a rifle for hunting over a slug gun any day at any distance, I think slug guns are very under rated.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

I agree, on all counts. I would always prefer my rifle, especially at longer ranges, Slug guns are under rated, etc. In fact it is probably a miss-use to call some of them slug guns only because I think that term is best used for a shotgun choked to use slugs, some of the modern (re-inventions of older) guns are really best considered large bore rifles.

Just have to do my part in "ed-u-cat'in" others.
And I've inherited a bit of my father's history-buff genes.
120 years ago a mediumhunting rifle (especially in places like Africa) would have been a 12 bore. Same difference as a rifled 12 gage slug gun, except that they would have been black powder and used solid lead bullets. And those were considered for out to 200+ yards. Many a waterbuffalo and similar large game fell to a 12 bore. I myslef would love to have a old Greener double rifle in 12 bore. (if I had a spare 10to 20grand laying around)

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Couple of yrs ago, my teenage son was to go on a hunt a few hrs from home with a group. He would have the opportunity to hunt deer, which is what he was mainly interested in. But there was also going to be rabbits, and some type of bird, dove I think. He thought he would only take his shotgun to cut down on the gear he was carrying, so we bought some regular slugs and went to the range. With the smooth barrell and those slugs, we couldn't hit the target, let alone the bullseye [&:] After that, he decided to take his shotgun for the smaller stuff, and my rifle for the deer.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

These new "rifle-bullet-sabot" type slugs essentially turn a shotgun into a big-bore rifle every bit the equivalent of a factory-loaded .45/70. But the old-style Foster hollow-base "rifled" slugs do NOT kill like a rifle. They have little, if any, shock effect and kill morelike a broadhead arrow-by causing massive bleeding. Sometimes they knock a deer down instantly, but I have seen some that were well-hit with several such slugs that went a LOOONG distance before piling up. And despite their large diameter, they don't always leave a good blood trail, either.

If I have a choice between a Foster slug in a shotgun and a centerfirerifle for deer hunting, give me the rifle every time! I even choose a muzzleloader over a shotgun. So naturally I recommend a rifle.

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RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

It depends where I would be hunting. If I'm hunting in thick swamps or heavy cover and my shots are going to be 20-25 yds, I use Sabots. If my shots are going to be 75yds or more, I use a rifle.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

I have killed and seen deer killed with both. A centerfire rifle is the more effective weapon in my opinion. Higher velocities and better designed bullets give you better BC's and transfer more energy causing better wound channels.

I live in a shotgun only area so I use a slug gun or an inline muzzle loader. The newer saboted shotgun slugs are pretty much just an inline ML with smokless powder and a cartridge. They pretty much use the same pistol XTP type bullets driven at higher velocities. They work and they work well out to 100 yards and maybe beyond, but not as well a centerfire rifle with the right bullet.

If I had the choice I would use a centerfire no questions. I would use a .243 over the slug gun if it were legal where I lived.

Just my opinions anyway.

Paul

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

First off I would like to say that for my first 7 years of huntingI was not fortunate enough to hunt in the northern hunting zones of New York state, therefore requiring me to use a shotgun to harvest deer. For the first five of those years I used regular old rifled slugs (Winchester super x) I took them to the range and sighted them in at 114 yds.and 15 shots punched out a hole a bit smaller than a tennis ball. Since then I have used winchester's partition golds. In the first 7 years I harvested 11 deer, and in thefollowing 4 years I harvested 7 more deer. (All with slugs).And I can honestly say, that out of all 18 of those deer I have never seen one of them run more than 55 yards and only 1 out of the 18 deer required more than one slug to kill it.

However, in the last 3 years I have been fortunate to be able to hunt northern zone. I have used my 30-06 all 3 years and have killed 4 deer with that gun. I could not believehow much more effective the rifle was at ( STOPPING) the deer immediately. 3 of those deer didn't even move after they were hit. and the 4th deer only went about 7 steps and collapsed.

I also would like to add that out of the total22deer that I have shot with both shotgun and rifle, only one of the 22 deer where shot at over 100 yds. And I didn't use my rifle either. I used winchester supreme partition golds and they smacked a nice 5 pt. at 143 yds. He only went about 26 paces before he died.

I am a firm believer in shot placementover velocities and foot pounds of energy. Only an idiot would claim that a shotgun would not kill a whitetail effectively. Because I belive they have stood the test of time. And with that being said, the "so - called" weaker cartridges like the 243, 250 savage,30-30, 38-40, 38-55and 257 roberts have also proved thier rankings over time on their ability to harvestwhitetail deer. (just to name a few.)
You dont need a cannon or anti tank rocket to kill a whitetail deer.( especially inside 100 yards) You just need to hit em where it counts.

I believe that both a slug gun and a rifle will kill deer effectively within their own abilities. If you stay within a good range with the slug, you should be able to kill any whitetail out there (provided you hit em right)

However, In my personal opinion, and from what I have personally experienced,I would choose a good rifle over the shotgun as well. I truly believe they(can be) more accurate than the slug. (just because a gun is only as accurate as its shooter) And for # 2 I know thata good rifle brings the energy. I dont want to track or drag a deer any further than I have to. If I shoot and I see the deer fall immediately (its fine with me)

If your freind will be hunting within 100 yards (he could use the shotgun) if he wants. But I really think he would appreciate the effectiveness and light recoils of a good 30-30, 243, or even a 7mm-08. He doesn't need a magnum for inside 100 yards and his shoulder shouldn't have to pay the price for it either.

I hope your freind get what he wants and is comfortable shooting with. (That is the most important thing) ButI would discuss some nice mild rifles with him, I think he will thank you in the long run.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Actually I HAVE fired all of those and many other calibers, in all different weight firearms, at times on the same day, and a slug gun does not have a noticabley greater recoil than a equivelant rifle,but the big bruser rifles do kick worse than a dcent dedicated slug gun.

I am comparing ammo prices as I see them in the stores. Yes you can buy cheaper rifle ammo, you can also buy 5 packs of cheap slugs for $2 - $2.50 a box, and I can reload for my rifles OR for a shotgun/slug gun and either will be significantly less than store bought.

As far as kill power, you STILL make me laugh. And as far as how slugs don't do anything except make them bleed a little like a arrow hit, guess you need practice hitting them right. As far as rifles somehow being different than slugs..... is there some kind of magic that happens that makes the bullet different just because it came out of a shotgun. A slug IS a bullet, just a large caliber, slow moving one. There are plenty of rifles that have no real difference to a "slug gun" but since they are rifles they must be 100x better bywhat seems to be yourresoning. Just as you wouldn't use a 500 nitro on a deer, or a 44mag to shoot 100+yards, you need to match the weapon to the situation.
As alluded to before, shot placement does more for dropdown power than just picking a "better" caliber. I have seen deer run 50 yardsafter a shot that lefttheir heart and a good portion of lung turned tosoup andI have seen deer collapse immediately when hit by a .223.

I never said that I wouldn't take a rifle over a slug if given the choice, just that they are FAR from the terrible option you seemed to make them.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

So how many high powered rifles produce the same velocities as a slug with the ammunition normally used for deer hunting?How many of the commonly used rifle bullets have a ballistic co-efficient as low as shotgun slugs?:D

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RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

You kind of answered your own question, you said "how many high powered rifles".

And now there are some very comprible bullet/sabot rounds to use in them instead of the old Fostner slugs. Many of the newer rounds use the exact same bullet as you would find for a muzzleloader or even a large caliber standard rifle so those have comprable BCs. Yes, a "lunker" slug does have a lower BC so it looses velocity at a faster rate, which also gives it a larger drop at a given distance, but you (not specifically you, but in general) cannot compare a magnum or high powered rifle to it any more than you can compare one to a low power loadused inanother standard rifle.
It's like comparing a 50-70 to a 7mm Weatherby Mag to a 500 S&W, especially when using completely different platforms to fire them.They are each in their own class and do not work the same in all situations, but each has it's uses and each has it's advantages over the others.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Actually almost all centerfire rifle cartridges legal for use on big gameare considered high powered rifles.That includes cartridges such as the 30-30 win and 308win as well as the high velocity magnums.Andeven the lowly 30-30 win has a flatter trajectory than a shotgun slug.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Centerfire bullets have much better designs and BC's than most anything you will shoot out of a shotgun. I have done a lot of research on ballistics and wound channel characteristics and the two key things that cause damage are velocity and bullet design. You need the right bullet for the right job for it to be effective. Centerfire rifles with controled expansion bullets cause much more dissruption to tissue than a shotgun slug or even the newer XTP style bullets do. A varmint type bullet that has a rapid expansion is even more dissruptive, but lacks penitration for most big game. Probably would work ok on medium sized deer though I bet.

And broad head tipped arrows make a deer bleed A LOT, more so than a bullet does because the cuts are cleaner and it takes longer for them to clot. The more trauma to the tissue the faster it will clot. I will agree though, arrows kill in a different way than bullets do. However if you are going for a lung shot the end result is the same. The deer basically chokes to death because the lungs don't work any more. The amount of time to death is pretty much the same from bleeding out or not being able to breath since the end effect is the same, lack of oxygen to the brain. Unless you only take out one lung, then those suckers can run a long ways!

And using a high powered rifle does not insure the deer will drop on the spot either. I can link you to study for that if you want. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. However the percentages go up with a centerfire, especially at longer ranges. It has more to do with shock to the central nervous system they think. No one really knows for sure why some deer drop on the spot, and others run like the wind even when hit in the same place with the same rifle.

Last year I shot a deer at 20 yards with a 600 grn slug from a 3 inch gold magnum. I took out the lungs and the top of the heart. It still ran about 90 yards before dropping. It had a hole about the size of a quarter all the way thru it.

Paul

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Stumble, take a look at the ballistics on your favorite 30-30 factory ammo.Then compare that to the 12ga Remington Core lokt Ultra's.I would likeyour honest opinion of which round you would think is a better deer round at ranges from 25-150yds.(Rifled shotgun ranges).

Rem data...
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/shotshell_slug_loads.asp

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Boy-As I stated,the 30-30 has a flatter trajectory than the slug.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

This would also work for me being that I've used both...

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

As the topic was comparing shotgun to rifles, I have to assume we are only discussing distances where shotguns are ethically effective. I think most members here would agree that limits range to around 150yds.

While I am too tired to do the exact conversions, it looks to me like the Remmington Core Lokts have virtually identical trajectory to the 30-30's out to that 150yd range....Possibly even flatter. (The Rem data has a 150yd zero, while the 30-30 data I am looking at is for a 100yd sight in, as I mentioned I have no interest in doing the full conversions, I think even a simple review of the charts will prove my point.)

While I know your comment only related to trajectory....Cleary, given the fact that both trajectories are almost identical, from a purely ballistics pespective, the Remington Core Loktsis a far superior choice tothe 30-30 delivering over 20% more energy at a distance of 100yds. (Recoil however is another issue however..;))

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Using the trajectory charts on the remington site that you provided a link for

slug +2.4" at 100yards for a 150 yard zero

30-30-150gr load +1.6" for a 150yard zero

Therefore the slug drops more from 100 yards to 150 yards.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Being a slug shooter I would consider the .6" differencedrop between the 170gr 30-30, and the 385gr 12ga to be "virtually identical trajectories" for deer hunting performance. (I agree you are correct in the original statement, that the 30-30 is flatter).

More importantly, (at least for my own purposes). I would never sacrifice a 20%+ drop in energyin hopes of gaininga maximum trajectory difference of .6" on deer sized game.

However, I can understand how shooters that are accustomed to shooting at longer distances don't view the comparison in the same light.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

That was the only point that I was making.I do not use slugs and never would consider doing so,because my average shot at deer would be around 200 yards with the possibility of a 400+ yard shot.The cartridges that I use provide much more energy and a much flatter trajectory than is possible with slugs givenmy hunting conditions.Also wind drift would be a major concern with slugs at longer distances.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Coming from Ohio, used 12 ga. slugs most of my life. Do the trick! ;)[8D]

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

i currently will use both. it depends on where i hunt and the laws on what you can use and so on. if you are going to hunt somewhere where rifle is acceptable AND you have a potential shot of over 100 yards then go with a rifle. but, if you live somewhere where you are not going to get a shot over 100 yrds. then the possibilty of using a slug gun is there. i would prefer a rifle just because it is going to be more accurate and will leave a cleaner shot. as far as cal/gauge rifle id use a .270 bolt action and for slug id use a 12 gauge without a question.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

"If" i was given the choise of shooting a deer with a slug gun (you pick the ammo) or a properly loaded 30-30, (you pick the range) i wouldtake the 30-30 every time!

All of the medium power range of deer rifles out perform a 30-30, and they easily out perform a shot gun slug too. (if they are properly loaded) I just don't understand why someone who can hunt with a rifle, and owns both firearms, would pick a slugfor close range and a rifle for further out.

The rifle will work at both ranges, it's the obvious choise.

Drilling Man

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

I do. I live in a rifle county in MD and pretty well use my slug gun for everything there. It has given me so many one shot kills, I am beginning to think its just a charmed gun. I know thats silly, but when you have confidence in a firearm, that means alot. I took a 45-70 out first day lat year and lost a deer because it ran 20 yards on the neighboring property. And I have almost a dozen deer cartidges. Alot of my friends give me a hard time. But its a semi with a 2X scope so its perfect, and I am hunting on a small plot of land and like the followup, and even though you don't see this massive hydroshock inside the animal, you always get a big entrance and big exit.

Second benefit, is the land I use this gun on is a finger goin thru two horse farms. I feel better shooting a slow 1oz slug than possibly killing a 1 million dollar horse with a 150gr 3000fps 06.

when I go hunting in other states or swamps, I take the rifle.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

H&R heavy barrel .20 guage. Almost no recoil and will drop a deer in it's tracks. Ammo is a bit high though.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Hey the key word is confidence. Because you do, you are relaxed and calm when you shoot because you know if you put the slug where you want it, the deer is going down for the count. If my slug gun racked em up too, then all the friends could make fun of me as they were enjoying my DEER steaks taken with my slug gun, cause they had none in the freezer! :D[8D];)

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

I absolutely would NOT hunt with "any" firearm that i didn't have 100% confidence in!! "If" you can't say the same thing, then you should spend more time with that firearm on the range untill you can.

Drilling Man

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Well, I think everybody knows that here. Except for confidense is not just shooting well, its how it performs on animals. Guess whats the only way to get confidense in that? To actually do it.

This has been an argument ongoing for eons by guidesman, gun writers and every gas station that is a check in station. Big heavy large diameter bullets movin slow vs. fast movin (relatively) bullets that create hydrostatic shock. Its a waste of time to even think we could settle it here. Don't ya all think?

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

you should be glad we can't use rifles. look at the statictics, states with rifle usage have fewer trophy book enteries than slug guns states.

since folks here in IL hunt in mostly wooded habitat, a slug gun is quite effective. as far as killing power, I would not say that it is any less than a rifle. 1 1/4 oz of lead and a 1/2" hole does a very good job. just make sure you put it in the right spot.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Absolutely correct! And, as mentioned, plascement is the most important factor of all. I find it a lot easier to place a bullet precisely at uncertain ranges when shooting it from a rifled bore at high velocity!

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

The following examples of recoil energy and velocity are all measured in 8 pound rifles. (Caliber [bullet weight, muzzle velocity] = free recoil energy & free recoil velocity.)
[ul][*]6mm Rem. (100 grain, MV 3100 fps) = 10.0 ft. lbs. & 9.0 fps[*].270 Win. (140 grain, MV 3000 fps) = 17.1 ft. lbs. & 11.7 fps[*].30-06 (180 grain, MV 2700 fps) = 20.3 ft. lbs. & 12.8 fps[*].35 Whelen (250 grain, MV 2400 fps) = 26.1 ft. lbs. & 14.5 fps[*].450 Marlin (350 grain, MV 2100 fps) = 35.7 ft. lbs. & 17.0 fps[*].458 Win. Mag. (500 grain, MV 2050 fps) = 68.9 ft. lbs. & 23.5 fps [/ul]
In the typical examples above, as the bullet weight goes up the muzzle velocity (MV) goes down; but the recoil energy and recoil velocity both continue to go up. The heavy bullets at relatively low velocity do not deliver a "long slow push," they deliver a progressively harder and faster blow to the shooter. Note that the high velocity .270 with its 140 grain bullet has a recoil velocity of only 11.7 fps, while the relatively low velocity .450 Marlin with its 350 grain bullet at 2100 fps has a recoil velocity of 17 fps!
Rifle weight plays an important role in determining the amount of recoil delivered to the shooter's shoulder. For any given caliber and load, a lighter rifle kicks more than a heavier rifle. Which is why I avoid ultra-light hunting rifles. Here are a couple of examples showing the effect rifle weight has on recoil energy and velocity when shooting the exact same load.
[ul][*].300 WSM (180 grain, MV 2950 fps), 6.5 lb. rifle = 30.8 ft. lbs. / 17.5 fps[*].300 WSM (180 grain, MV 2950 fps), 8.5 lb. rifle = 23.6 ft. lbs. / 13.4 fps [/ul]
[ul][*].45-70 (300 grain, MV 1900 fps), 7.0 lb. rifle = 26.6 ft. lbs. / 15.6 fps[*].45-70 (300 grain, MV 1900 fps), 8.5 lb. rifle = 21.9 ft. lbs. / 12.9 fps [/ul]

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

I have never cared much for what a calculator or table tells you. Shoulder them and see how it feels. I have shot heavy slugs out of shotguns and muzzle loaders and high powered rifles. My 30-06 kicked harder than any slug gun or ML I have shot. And I thought mine was relitively nice on recoil compared to my step dads 7600 pump carbine in 30-06. That thing was just no fun to shoot at all.

It is really hard to tell though since reciol varies so much between rifles even in the same caliber. weight and gun design play a big part in it. There is difference in calculated recoil and felt recoil. I really don't think slugs kick that bad unless you shoot them out of a really light rifle. I don't understand why people complain about slugs but not a field load when some of them shoot the same weight at the same if not higher velocities in some cases. The physics are the same. You want kick, shoot a 2 oz magnum turkey load, or a 3 1/2 inch turkey load! The average slug isn't that bad after that;).

Just my opinion though.

RE: Shotgun Slug vs. Rifle
 

Interesting thread. Unless restricted by law, I'd opt for a rifle over a shotgun. I've killed deer with muzzleloader, .270, and shotgun (though all my shotgunned deer were taken with buckshot while running dogs). I've acquired a rifled barrel for my 870 Express, and practiced with slugs... and they're like 3" buckshot when it comes to recoil. No fun. If your 30-06 or .270 feels like it kicks hard... shoot a box of slugs or buckshot ouit of a pump gun, and Mr. .270 will seem mild by comparison.

As does another poster... I opt for muzzleloader instead of a shotgun. I've a low-powered scope on mine, and I can place shots MUCH more precisely with it than I can with my iron-sighted shotgun, and can do so a lot further out. I know you can setup a shotgun to work well - fixed barrel, scope, good rifled shells - but that adds up to $$$ and a dedicated slug gun, and I've neither right now.

I, too, have concluded that where you hit the deer is much more important than what you hit him with.