Guns Like firearms themselves, there's a wide variety of opinions on what's the best gun.

12GA From Hell

Old 06-25-2015, 01:48 PM
  #551  
Nontypical Buck
 
Nomercy448's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,912
Default

Originally Posted by Oldtimr
The word shotgun has a meaning, the fact that ammo was made to allow a shotgun shoot single projectile ammo doesn't change that. However, a rifled barreld gun that is made to shoot cartridges with bullets instead of rifled slugs could very easily beconsidered a rifle, not a shotgun, even though it is designated by gauge instead of caliber.
This isn't the BATFE's first rodeo - rifled shotguns aren't anything new, so this isn't anything they haven't seen before, and nothing that they haven't ruled upon already - it's a shotgun, end of story. There are plenty of rifled shotguns that have been around LONG before Ed started working on these dinosaur guns, heck, there are even models that are built based on a RIFLE ACTION like the Savage 212 and 220 on the market - and the officially recognized ruling is that they are what they say they are - they're shotguns.

Originally Posted by Oldtimr
Some states could well consider a 24 gauge gun a rifle if it has a rifled barrel when using a metalic or plastic casing and loaded with a bullet instead of a rifled slug which is the case here if I understood what I read. I have alreaded sent an e-mail to the PGC to see what their interpretation is on it for our state.
If your state's PGC has a different interpretation than to consider a shotgun chambered firearm as a shotgun, then they are diverging from federal law. So if I were a resident of such a foolish state, I'd happily write letters to the law enforcement division of the PGC explaining how their ruling is incorrect, and then I'd hunt with a rifled shotgun, hoping that they tried to take it from me... Pretty hard to win an argument with the BATFE...
Nomercy448 is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 02:36 PM
  #552  
Nontypical Buck
 
super_hunt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Default

Wow, it's a rare thing nowadays when Oldtimr and I agree on something but as I stated long ago on this post, the only thing that is making this a SEEMINGLY shotgun is the fact that the bullet he is loading is sized in gauge rather than caliber. It's basically a straight walled, HUGE bored, RIFLE cartridge. Plain and simple to see. There is a pretty significant difference between a 12 gauge savage 220 or 212 and one of these T-Rex killers. Granted I personally don't give a rat's rear end because I honestly feel that "shotgun only" states are ridiculous. I would agree that "shotgun only" should be used in SOME areas that are a bit more populated than most but to make it a state wide regulation like here in Illinois is sheer lunacy. But hell, I can easily put down a whitetail with my 12ga slug barrel at 200 yards with minimal effort so what the hell is the point of the regulation? These things he is making are pure and simple ways of skirting the regulations. The pressures and velocities far exceed ANY factory made slugs by his own admission. That being said, if I can easily drop a deer at 200 with my factory made 12ga, just how far out could you reach with one of those cannons? I do believe the purpose of the regulation is range limitation which I personally feel we already skirt with our rifled barrels. Hell 30 years ago when Tn had a shotgun only season I was feeling pretty dang sporty dropping a deer at 75 yards! Just my opinion, which is worth just about what was paid for it!
super_hunt54 is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 02:49 PM
  #553  
Boone & Crockett
 
Oldtimr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 15,633
Default

I am sure they would be impressed with your letter. It doesn't matter one iota what BATF acalls something, each state is able to make their own definition of a legal firearm for hunting. What would make you think any state is bound by a federal definition of a firearm in making regulations for legal firearms in that state. You seem to forget about states rights and when laws are passed, defininitions are set to describe what is legal and those definitions do not have to be what you think they should be. The question I posed is a letgitimate question, your reaction to the question is ridiculous. Designating a rifle by gauge instead of by caliber doesn't make it a shotgun. and that gun may not pass muster in some states as a shotgun. I really don't care, but that is a fact, and I posted it as a matter for discussion, not to be told what the feds do or say, because it doesn't matter what they call it, if a state says it isn't legal to use, it doesn't matter what the feds call it. I have an American Derringer that will fire .45 colt ammo or .410 buckshot or shot shells or rifled slug ammo, it is not a shotgun, it is a .45 caliber handgun that will accept .410 shotgun shells, there are revolvers that will shoot .45 colt ammo and .410 shot shells, they are not shotguns, they are .45 caliber handguns that will accept .410 shot shells. The 24 gauge gun in question here could very easly be considered a 24 ga. rifle that can accept a 24 ga. shotshell, even though it was not made for a shot shell. That is the question I posed and your response did not put that question to rest.
Oldtimr is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 02:57 PM
  #554  
Nontypical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,697
Default

But hell, I can easily put down a whitetail with my 12ga slug barrel at 200 yards with minimal effort so what the hell is the point of the regulation? These things he is making are pure and simple ways of skirting the regulations.
and? manufacturers of muzzleloaders have been doing the same for years, whats the difference between hubels shotgun and an ultimate 50 cal muzzleloader?
RR
Ridge Runner is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 03:18 PM
  #555  
Nontypical Buck
 
super_hunt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Default

Originally Posted by Ridge Runner
and? manufacturers of muzzleloaders have been doing the same for years, whats the difference between hubels shotgun and an ultimate 50 cal muzzleloader?
RR
I believe I already stated that same point when I said " I do believe the purpose of the regulation is range limitation which I personally feel we already skirt with our rifled barrels. " meaning, just how far is to far. I know what you mean there RR, just the point was, how far is to far before you can call something one thing when you have morphed it into something else entirely. Your point on muzzle loaders is a great difference. The very definition of muzzle loader is what makes it what it is. Not the power, range, powder used, or bullet used. There is a grey area here with shotgun only states legal arms use and one that should be addressed.
super_hunt54 is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 03:34 PM
  #556  
Nontypical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,697
Default

Originally Posted by super_hunt54
I believe I already stated that same point when I said " I do believe the purpose of the regulation is range limitation which I personally feel we already skirt with our rifled barrels. " meaning, just how far is to far. I know what you mean there RR, just the point was, how far is to far before you can call something one thing when you have morphed it into something else entirely. Your point on muzzle loaders is a great difference. The very definition of muzzle loader is what makes it what it is. Not the power, range, powder used, or bullet used. There is a grey area here with shotgun only states legal arms use and one that should be addressed.
Yep, how far is too far, I can take a rifle based on a 270 case and kill a deer at 1100 yards, is that too far? If so do we now say the 270 case is not legal? who draws the line? where is it drawn and why?
RR
Ridge Runner is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 03:51 PM
  #557  
Nontypical Buck
 
super_hunt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Default

Originally Posted by Ridge Runner
Yep, how far is too far, I can take a rifle based on a 270 case and kill a deer at 1100 yards, is that too far? If so do we now say the 270 case is not legal? who draws the line? where is it drawn and why?
RR
Because the PURPOSE of the shotgun only regulation was initially for RANGE LIMITATION. Pretty simple to grasp the reasoning behind the questioning don't you think? Some of us are just questioning the legality of using these specially modified T-Rex killers in shotgun only states. Not limiting the range of a RIFLE in RIFLE season. While your argument in comparing this line of questioning to muzzleloaders had some merit, your argument comparing this to a rifle season use of a 270 parent cased RIFLE cartridge has none.
super_hunt54 is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 04:03 PM
  #558  
Nontypical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,697
Default

that's where I'm stuck, say 2 guys use the same gun/load, one guy struggles at 100 yards, the other whacks them at 250. so you get the poor shooter another gun and now he is 250 capable, the other guy gets the same weapon, he's now whacking deer at 400 so what do you do? separate them and say you can use this gun to get you to the same range as the 400 yard guy, tell the 400 yard guy he can't use that gun cause it will not be fair to the other guy.
anytime you bring out an innovative product, one will be better able to use it to the most of its capabilities, do you not let everyone take advantage of it?
RR
Ridge Runner is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 04:14 PM
  #559  
Boone & Crockett
 
Oldtimr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 15,633
Default

It has not a thing to do with beng fair. It has to do with states limiting range for safety purposes. Whether it actually contibutes to safety or is simply perception does not matter, it is the reason for the restriction that matters. Making a rifle and calling it a shotgun to circumvent some states regulations or laws is what is in question and what the discussion is about.
Oldtimr is offline  
Old 06-25-2015, 04:18 PM
  #560  
Nontypical Buck
 
super_hunt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Default

The problem isn't capability of the shooter RR, It's with the actual range ability of these things. The whole purpose of shotgun only regulations were to limit the shooting range. Not limiting a hunters ability at shooting. Just plain and simple, they don't want the damn bullet going through the neighbors house so they made these shotgun slug only regulations with the idea behind them of serious range limits. Initially, you would have been pretty damn sporty to be dropping a deer at 100 yards. With today's tech in both ammo as well as in the barrels themselves, 200 is easily reachable. And in my opinion, too far for the initial regulations goal. These things he is making are FAR more capable than your factory made rifled barrel shotguns and by his own admission far more powerful and faster. So the question remains, just how far is to far before you have completely obliterated the goal of the initial regulation?
super_hunt54 is offline  

Quick Reply: 12GA From Hell


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.