Rifled Slug Barrel
09-19-2005 | 08:30 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: cuyahoga falls ohio USA
Rifled Slug Barrel
I have a problem. I know im an idiot for doing this but I have a mossberg rifled slug barrel. I accidentally fired about 30 rifled slugs through it instead of sabots. Did i mess anything up or is there anything I need to be aware of because of this? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.
09-19-2005 | 11:12 PM
#2
Site Bouncer
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,099
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From: Illinois
RE: Rifled Slug Barrel
Well you have the bow hunting forum you need to gun forum.
But to answer your question you have done absolutely no harm, just clean the barrel and your good to go. I use both regular and sabot slugs in my rifled slug guns so don't sweat it, just clean it.
But to answer your question you have done absolutely no harm, just clean the barrel and your good to go. I use both regular and sabot slugs in my rifled slug guns so don't sweat it, just clean it.
09-20-2005 | 05:09 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,337
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From: Too close to Chicago
RE: Rifled Slug Barrel
Sabots are indeed made for the rifled barrels.
I know guys who use the rifled slugs in them and just clean up the mess, but I just have to think there would be some accuracy issue with the twist rate, tewist dierection, or just plain tearing up of the outside of the slugs with two different rifleing trying to steer the same projectile.
Never tried it or compared myself sine the sabots shoot so darned good.
I know guys who use the rifled slugs in them and just clean up the mess, but I just have to think there would be some accuracy issue with the twist rate, tewist dierection, or just plain tearing up of the outside of the slugs with two different rifleing trying to steer the same projectile.
Never tried it or compared myself sine the sabots shoot so darned good.
09-21-2005 | 09:06 AM
#5
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,293
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From: Blissfield MI USA
RE: Rifled Slug Barrel
You fired 30 rounds of rifled ammo without cleaning it once? How is the accuracy after doing that? I doubt you hurt anything, it will just be a pain to clean is all because of all the lead fouling. Using winchester rifled slugs I can get about 5 shots or so before my barrel fouls out and accuracy goes away. The most shots I have fired without cleaning it when using rifled slugs was 10. I will not do that again, it was not fun cleaning it.
Did you hurt your gun? I highly doubt it. Sabots are pretty new in the scheme of things. People have been shooting lead slugs out of rifled barrels for quite some time. It just requires more work is all. No different than shooting buffalo bullets out of a muzzle loader, or non jacketed bullets out of a pistol.
Get some good brushes and a decent lead remover and get to work. Be prepared to make a mess as well. It will take several passes and a fair amount of time to get it completely clean would be my guess. Just take your time and do it right.
That is one of the upsides to using sabots. They leave the barrel very clean when your done shooting.
Paul
Did you hurt your gun? I highly doubt it. Sabots are pretty new in the scheme of things. People have been shooting lead slugs out of rifled barrels for quite some time. It just requires more work is all. No different than shooting buffalo bullets out of a muzzle loader, or non jacketed bullets out of a pistol.
Get some good brushes and a decent lead remover and get to work. Be prepared to make a mess as well. It will take several passes and a fair amount of time to get it completely clean would be my guess. Just take your time and do it right.
That is one of the upsides to using sabots. They leave the barrel very clean when your done shooting.
Paul
09-21-2005 | 09:15 AM
#6
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,293
Likes: 0
From: Blissfield MI USA
RE: Rifled Slug Barrel
Oh something else I found. I have been doing some research of slugs lately and found something out. It seems that most rifled slugs don't actually spin in flight because of the fins. The fins are there so the bullet can crush when it hits the choke in the smooth bore. The fins on the bullet are not actually enough to spin it in flight. Besides from what I have been reading if the slug is super sonic there is a shock wave around it any way. So you will get very little if any rotation out of a smooth bore with rifled slugs. They will spin quite well out of a riled barrel though. Brenneke actually makes a rifled slug specifically for a rifled barrel where the fins are molded in the opposite direction so they grab the grooves better. At least that is the theory any way.
I bought some, but haven't had a chance to shoot them yet. I will let everyone know how they work after I shoot them.
Paul
I bought some, but haven't had a chance to shoot them yet. I will let everyone know how they work after I shoot them.
Paul
09-22-2005 | 07:24 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2005
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From:
RE: Rifled Slug Barrel
To supplement Pauls post...
Foster type rifled slugs
This is a short, blunt lead bullet that is solid in front and hollow in the rear, analogous to a badminton bird. And, like a shuttlecock, it is its weight forward balance that allows the Foster slug to fly through the air to its target with reasonable accuracy. Compared to lead balls, this was a big improvement in both accuracy and SD.
Heavy external "rifling" was cast into these Foster type slugs, allegedly to allow the air they flew through to impart a slow spin that would help stabilize the slug. Like most something for nothing schemes, the rifling proved ineffective, but it did provide some space for some compression if the slug had to squeeze through a tight choke. The name "rifled slug" stuck and is still in widespread use today.
Rifled slugs are offered by most of the major ammunition makers in a variety of shotgun gauges, including 12, 16, 20, and .410 bore. They used to be made under bore diameter to allow safe passage through any degree of choke, from full to cylinder. Cylinder bore guns are usually recommended for shooting slugs, but in some cases a full or modified choke barrel will give better accuracy with the undersize slugs.
This may not always hold true these days, however, as Remington advertises that their "Slugger" rifled slugs are made oversize for better sealing against the barrel wall and superior accuracy. Compared to rifle bullets, whose diameter is held to very strict tolerances, Foster type slugs are made to rather haphazard dimensions that vary from one manufacturer to another.
The use of slugs is best confined to single barrel shotguns, either single shot or repeaters. Double guns tend to crossfire with slugs due to the regulation of the barrels.
A smoothbore "slug gun" with rifle sights will usually shoot groups in the 3" (6 MOA) range at 50 yards/meters, making them satisfactory short range deer guns. An occasional example will do better, and some do worse. Shooting groups from a bench rest with a slug gun is not fun, as the recoil is considerable.
Compared to practically any big game rifle bullet, rifled slugs are still "penetration deficient," and not very accurate. They are a short range proposition at best and should be reserved for use only on CXP2 class game. The ballistic coefficient (BC) and sectional density of rifled slugs is pretty pitiful. If possible, always use a rifle in preference to a slug gun for any kind of big game hunting.
Some jurisdictions in the U.S. forbid the use of rifles and mandate the use of shotgun slugs for deer hunting, allegedly for "safety" in crowded hunting areas. I am sure that this is what keeps rifled slugs viable as a sporting proposition. (They are also used in police "riot" guns, of course.)
This is actually kind of funny in an ironic way, as the one thing slugs do really well is penetrate brush. Rifled slugs are probably the most dangerous type of ammunition to use in a wooded area crowded with hunters, as they plow through visually impenetrable brush, leaves, and small tree limbs with aplomb. A high velocity rifle with a frangible bullet would be far safer in such an environment. I have, for instance, seen .22 varmint bullets fired at very high velocity turn into a puff of blue smoke on a blade of grass!
Conventional Foster type rifled slugs generally weigh 1 ounce in 12 gauge, 4/5 ounce in 16 gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20 gauge, and 1/5 ounce (or 87 grains) in .410 gauge. The 12 gauge slug has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1560 fps from a 2 3/4" high-brass shell, 1680 fps from a 2 3/4" Magnum shell, or 1760 fps from a 3" Magnum shell. These are Remington figures from their 2004 catalog. The MV's of the other gauges are similar.
The catalog energy figures for the common high-brass ("maximum") 12 gauge slug load are an impressive 2361 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but only 926 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. This is due to the very poor BC of the slug. Sighted to hit dead on at 50 yards, that slug is 4.8" low at 100 yards. The more powerful 12 gauge slugs are only marginally better, and kick noticeably harder. No matter what, rifled slugs remain a very short range proposition.
Only 12 gauge slugs should be used for deer hunting. In fact, the reason for producing rifled slugs in the other gauges escapes me. Despite their fearsome diameter, 12 gauge slugs are mediocre killers beyond 100 yards, and the smaller gauge slugs are much worse.
The 20 gauge slug develops only 931 ft. lbs. of energy at 50 yards and 648 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, which given its low SD is not encouraging. The pathetic .410 rifled slug is generally inferior in both projectile weight and terminal performance to the lowly .380 ACP pistol cartridge--often despairingly referred to as a "mouse gun." The less said about these sub-12 gauge rifled slugs the better.
Brenneke, Buckhammer, and Trophy Slug
These resemble Foster type slugs with one important difference: the wad remains attached to the base of the slug. This provides a better BC and stability in flight, a better shuttlecock, if you will. The assembly is heavier than a plain rifled slug due to the weight of the attached wad. The difference in retained energy at 100 yards is considerable.
The original design of this type, as far as I know, is the German Brenneke slug, offered by Rottweil. Brenneke rifled slugs still use felt and fiber wads, and are suitable for use in smooth or rifled shotgun barrels. Rottweil offers several slug loads in 12, 20, and .410. Their 2 3/4" 12 gauge slug weighs 1 1/4 ounce, and their 3" Magnum 20 gauge slug weighs a full 1 ounce.
A MV of 1476 fps and ME of 2538 are claimed for the 12 gauge 2 3/4" Magnum load. More important is the 100 yard retained energy figure of 1170 ft. lbs.
Fiocchi of Italy offers the Aeroslug Trophy Slug, which appears to be a modernized and simplified version of the Brenneke design. It, too, is recommended for both smooth and rifled barrels. The Fiocchi Trophy slug weighs 1 ounce in 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells, and 7/8 ounce in 2 3/4" 20 gauge shells. Ballistics are similar to the Brenneke loads with somewhat less energy due to the lighter slugs.
Perhaps the most creative design of this general sort, with which I am familiar, is the Remington Buckhammer. It is also the most recent innovation. The Buckhammer lead slug itself is a short truncated cone, rather like a lead "Keith" style revolver bullet. Attached to the base of this is a long, plastic "stabilizer" wad. Remington says that the Buckhammer was designed for use in fully rifled barrels, or with rifled choke tubes. The diameter of the lead slug is supposed to be .73", so I do not see why it could not be used in cylinder bore (smooth) shotgun barrels, but I have not tried it. Experiment at your own risk!
12 gauge Buckhammer slugs weigh 1 1/4 ounces in 2 3/4" cases or 1 3/8 ounces in 3" cases. 20 gauge Buckhammer slugs come only in 2 3/4" cases and weigh 1 ounce.
These Remington Buckhammer loads claim the most impressive ballistics of the bunch. The 12 gauge 2 3/4" load has a MV of 1550 fps and ME of 2935 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 1145 fps and 1600 ft. lbs. Zeroed at 50 yards, the 1 1/4 ounce slug should hit 3.6" low at 100 yards, so it is still a short range load.
The 20 gauge Buckhammer load has a MV of 1500 fps and ME of 2236 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 995 fps and 1074 ft. lbs. Zeroed at 50 yards, the 1 ounce slug should hit 4.6" low at 100 yards.
While still very inferior to the 12 gauge loads, the Buckhammer and Brenneke slug loads (which claim similar ballistics) at least get the 20 gauge slug gun up off of its knees. If I had to shoot a smoothbore 20 gauge slug gun, these are the loads I would use.
All three manufacturers of these "super" rifled slugs claim exceptional accuracy in fully rifled barrels. Remington, for example, claims 3" to 3 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards (3.5 MOA or better) with their Buckhammer slugs.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
This is a short, blunt lead bullet that is solid in front and hollow in the rear, analogous to a badminton bird. And, like a shuttlecock, it is its weight forward balance that allows the Foster slug to fly through the air to its target with reasonable accuracy. Compared to lead balls, this was a big improvement in both accuracy and SD.
Heavy external "rifling" was cast into these Foster type slugs, allegedly to allow the air they flew through to impart a slow spin that would help stabilize the slug. Like most something for nothing schemes, the rifling proved ineffective, but it did provide some space for some compression if the slug had to squeeze through a tight choke. The name "rifled slug" stuck and is still in widespread use today.
Rifled slugs are offered by most of the major ammunition makers in a variety of shotgun gauges, including 12, 16, 20, and .410 bore. They used to be made under bore diameter to allow safe passage through any degree of choke, from full to cylinder. Cylinder bore guns are usually recommended for shooting slugs, but in some cases a full or modified choke barrel will give better accuracy with the undersize slugs.
This may not always hold true these days, however, as Remington advertises that their "Slugger" rifled slugs are made oversize for better sealing against the barrel wall and superior accuracy. Compared to rifle bullets, whose diameter is held to very strict tolerances, Foster type slugs are made to rather haphazard dimensions that vary from one manufacturer to another.
The use of slugs is best confined to single barrel shotguns, either single shot or repeaters. Double guns tend to crossfire with slugs due to the regulation of the barrels.
A smoothbore "slug gun" with rifle sights will usually shoot groups in the 3" (6 MOA) range at 50 yards/meters, making them satisfactory short range deer guns. An occasional example will do better, and some do worse. Shooting groups from a bench rest with a slug gun is not fun, as the recoil is considerable.
Compared to practically any big game rifle bullet, rifled slugs are still "penetration deficient," and not very accurate. They are a short range proposition at best and should be reserved for use only on CXP2 class game. The ballistic coefficient (BC) and sectional density of rifled slugs is pretty pitiful. If possible, always use a rifle in preference to a slug gun for any kind of big game hunting.
Some jurisdictions in the U.S. forbid the use of rifles and mandate the use of shotgun slugs for deer hunting, allegedly for "safety" in crowded hunting areas. I am sure that this is what keeps rifled slugs viable as a sporting proposition. (They are also used in police "riot" guns, of course.)
This is actually kind of funny in an ironic way, as the one thing slugs do really well is penetrate brush. Rifled slugs are probably the most dangerous type of ammunition to use in a wooded area crowded with hunters, as they plow through visually impenetrable brush, leaves, and small tree limbs with aplomb. A high velocity rifle with a frangible bullet would be far safer in such an environment. I have, for instance, seen .22 varmint bullets fired at very high velocity turn into a puff of blue smoke on a blade of grass!
Conventional Foster type rifled slugs generally weigh 1 ounce in 12 gauge, 4/5 ounce in 16 gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20 gauge, and 1/5 ounce (or 87 grains) in .410 gauge. The 12 gauge slug has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1560 fps from a 2 3/4" high-brass shell, 1680 fps from a 2 3/4" Magnum shell, or 1760 fps from a 3" Magnum shell. These are Remington figures from their 2004 catalog. The MV's of the other gauges are similar.
The catalog energy figures for the common high-brass ("maximum") 12 gauge slug load are an impressive 2361 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but only 926 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. This is due to the very poor BC of the slug. Sighted to hit dead on at 50 yards, that slug is 4.8" low at 100 yards. The more powerful 12 gauge slugs are only marginally better, and kick noticeably harder. No matter what, rifled slugs remain a very short range proposition.
Only 12 gauge slugs should be used for deer hunting. In fact, the reason for producing rifled slugs in the other gauges escapes me. Despite their fearsome diameter, 12 gauge slugs are mediocre killers beyond 100 yards, and the smaller gauge slugs are much worse.
The 20 gauge slug develops only 931 ft. lbs. of energy at 50 yards and 648 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, which given its low SD is not encouraging. The pathetic .410 rifled slug is generally inferior in both projectile weight and terminal performance to the lowly .380 ACP pistol cartridge--often despairingly referred to as a "mouse gun." The less said about these sub-12 gauge rifled slugs the better.
Brenneke, Buckhammer, and Trophy Slug
These resemble Foster type slugs with one important difference: the wad remains attached to the base of the slug. This provides a better BC and stability in flight, a better shuttlecock, if you will. The assembly is heavier than a plain rifled slug due to the weight of the attached wad. The difference in retained energy at 100 yards is considerable.
The original design of this type, as far as I know, is the German Brenneke slug, offered by Rottweil. Brenneke rifled slugs still use felt and fiber wads, and are suitable for use in smooth or rifled shotgun barrels. Rottweil offers several slug loads in 12, 20, and .410. Their 2 3/4" 12 gauge slug weighs 1 1/4 ounce, and their 3" Magnum 20 gauge slug weighs a full 1 ounce.
A MV of 1476 fps and ME of 2538 are claimed for the 12 gauge 2 3/4" Magnum load. More important is the 100 yard retained energy figure of 1170 ft. lbs.
Fiocchi of Italy offers the Aeroslug Trophy Slug, which appears to be a modernized and simplified version of the Brenneke design. It, too, is recommended for both smooth and rifled barrels. The Fiocchi Trophy slug weighs 1 ounce in 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells, and 7/8 ounce in 2 3/4" 20 gauge shells. Ballistics are similar to the Brenneke loads with somewhat less energy due to the lighter slugs.
Perhaps the most creative design of this general sort, with which I am familiar, is the Remington Buckhammer. It is also the most recent innovation. The Buckhammer lead slug itself is a short truncated cone, rather like a lead "Keith" style revolver bullet. Attached to the base of this is a long, plastic "stabilizer" wad. Remington says that the Buckhammer was designed for use in fully rifled barrels, or with rifled choke tubes. The diameter of the lead slug is supposed to be .73", so I do not see why it could not be used in cylinder bore (smooth) shotgun barrels, but I have not tried it. Experiment at your own risk!
12 gauge Buckhammer slugs weigh 1 1/4 ounces in 2 3/4" cases or 1 3/8 ounces in 3" cases. 20 gauge Buckhammer slugs come only in 2 3/4" cases and weigh 1 ounce.
These Remington Buckhammer loads claim the most impressive ballistics of the bunch. The 12 gauge 2 3/4" load has a MV of 1550 fps and ME of 2935 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 1145 fps and 1600 ft. lbs. Zeroed at 50 yards, the 1 1/4 ounce slug should hit 3.6" low at 100 yards, so it is still a short range load.
The 20 gauge Buckhammer load has a MV of 1500 fps and ME of 2236 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 995 fps and 1074 ft. lbs. Zeroed at 50 yards, the 1 ounce slug should hit 4.6" low at 100 yards.
While still very inferior to the 12 gauge loads, the Buckhammer and Brenneke slug loads (which claim similar ballistics) at least get the 20 gauge slug gun up off of its knees. If I had to shoot a smoothbore 20 gauge slug gun, these are the loads I would use.
All three manufacturers of these "super" rifled slugs claim exceptional accuracy in fully rifled barrels. Remington, for example, claims 3" to 3 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards (3.5 MOA or better) with their Buckhammer slugs.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
09-22-2005 | 09:26 PM
#8
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,293
Likes: 0
From: Blissfield MI USA
RE: Rifled Slug Barrel
I like his articles. Don't always agree with all of it, but they are informational. I personally think the 20 gauge is a fine weapon for deer. You have to take into account for geography though. In my neck of the woods 100 yards is a fairly long shot. Most around here consider 150 long range. At least when deer hunting.
Now if you lived out west it would be a different story. A slug gun would probably be useless to you.
I don't always go by what the math says either. Some loads, especially rifle loads will claim big numbers, but don't really transfer any where near that energy to an animal or traget. Where as a slower slug inside of 100 yards transfers a great amount of energy because it holds more momentum and has more surface area when impacting a target. I can shoot a large piece of fire wood with a 30-06 and it will zip right thru the log. Probably not even moving it. And even if it stops it the log stays upright. I can do the same thing with a slug and it will nock the log over and roll it on the ground.
I have noticed the same with arrows. When you do the math most arrows produce simular KE out of the same bow. The heavier arrow will be a bit higher, but not much, less than a ft/lb sometimes. Yet the the difference betwee a 320 grn arrow and a 450 grn arrow when the hit the target is quite noticable.
Not that rifles are not effective, obviously they are. It has a lot to with bullet design though. With the better bullets and the high velocity they attain the hydrostatic shock is pretty imressive. But at close ranges the simple heavy lead slug is VERY effective if placed in the right spot.
Just my opinions any way.
Paul
Now if you lived out west it would be a different story. A slug gun would probably be useless to you.
I don't always go by what the math says either. Some loads, especially rifle loads will claim big numbers, but don't really transfer any where near that energy to an animal or traget. Where as a slower slug inside of 100 yards transfers a great amount of energy because it holds more momentum and has more surface area when impacting a target. I can shoot a large piece of fire wood with a 30-06 and it will zip right thru the log. Probably not even moving it. And even if it stops it the log stays upright. I can do the same thing with a slug and it will nock the log over and roll it on the ground.
I have noticed the same with arrows. When you do the math most arrows produce simular KE out of the same bow. The heavier arrow will be a bit higher, but not much, less than a ft/lb sometimes. Yet the the difference betwee a 320 grn arrow and a 450 grn arrow when the hit the target is quite noticable.
Not that rifles are not effective, obviously they are. It has a lot to with bullet design though. With the better bullets and the high velocity they attain the hydrostatic shock is pretty imressive. But at close ranges the simple heavy lead slug is VERY effective if placed in the right spot.
Just my opinions any way.
Paul
