I have 2-7mmstw's and 2-300ultramags that consistantlyaverage well under an inch with me shooting them.The best groups are much better and it is rare for any group to exceed an inch at 100 yards.

You stated varmit rifles or 22 centerfire as an exception to the suggested shooting ability. I was wondering,why do you think these rifles shoot any better than the bigger bulleted rifles? Just wondered ?I know a lot of guys whom go out each week end and shoot there deer rifles regulary,and also enjoy it as much as the varmit types.They are all fun for sure. vangunsmith

Van, excellent questions. I think, if someone makes the statement, "I shoot my varmit guns well under SubMOA, but rarely shoot my bigbores subMOA,", it says alot about the shooter. I am guilty of this. When I go to the range, I take a 22LR or other small caliber when shooting high recoil rifles. It gets me back in a groove and also shows me how wound up I actually was after shooting something with 35ft/lbs of recoil even though I feel great.

Van, I think that there are maily two reasons that the "varmint" rifles generally preform better than the average centerfire hunting guns.
1.Less recoil= more shooting= better groups.
2. Most varmint guns are heavier, bull barreled guns, whereas most hunting guns are lighter, thin barreled guns.
As guns go, I don't think the barrel thickness really makes the barrel more accurate. It is just that the increased weight makes for a more stable platform.
Back to MOA, I think the quality of most newer guns today, is that most, not all of them are capable of tight, consistant groups.
Speaking for myself, just about all of my equipment, is far better than my ability!

I agree with JagMag in one at least, I shoot my small caliber rifles a lot more and a lot better than I do my bigger rifles. Bullets and powder cost less and to me they are much more enjoyable to shoot for fun. I no longer get any joy out of shooting anything bigger than my 25-06. I shoot my bigger rifles just enough to know where they are shooting and that the rifle/scope combos are still well tuned.

From my own personal experience all my .223 and .22-250 rifles shoot well underr an inch...They are easier to shoot, they have varmint style bullets for them and can shoot target bulklets where my big game rifles don't see those loads...they see big game bullets only.

When it comes to things like my .300 H&H, while it shoots A-Frames very well and I'd think it would show you groups at about 1MOA, I wouldn't bet that the next group I fired wouldn't be 1.5"/100 yards.

Based on personal experience I'd be willing to say that 75% of all folks that claim their big game rifle shoots 1MOA couldn't prove it at a public shoot where all could witness the shooting. Fine groups maybe....but not 1MOA...(1" at 100 yards)

Remember they guy that shoots 3/4" at 200 yards with iron sights?

I had a friend that swore his 7Mag could hit a nickel at 300 yards and when I finally called his bluff he couldn't show a 3" group at 100 yards.

When we believe that today's guns shoot MOA out of the box I'm wondering what they're smoking.....I want some too.

If I shot 3 inch groups off from a bench with a scoped rifle using a rest I would flat out be upset with myself. Especially if I knew the rifle could do better. I could live down 2 inch groups, but not 3. That is pretty big to me. Of course if my gun never shot better than that I certainly would not be bragging it up. I'm talking 3 shot groups by the way. I'm guessing your buddy got lucky and hit a nickel or something once and assumed it was repeatable.

I think the difference in a big game rifle and a varmint rifle is the way they are set up. Varmint or target type rifles are a bit easier to shoot well. They have higher powered scopes and better triggers most of the time.

Big game rifles tend to have lower power scopes with fixed parallax, thick reticles and heavier trigger pulls. Take my .17HMR for example. It can easily shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards if the wind is calm. However it has a 20 power adjustable objective scope, light trigger and is pretty quiet with no recoil. I have a 400 dollar varmint scope on a 200 dollar rimfire. I can't just see my target, I can read the fine print on it.

Compare that to a high powered rifle or slug gun that has a lower power scope, heavier trigger and you know is going to kick. It becomes a bit more tricky to shoot well. Also a bit more of a process to find the ammo it likes.

I would be impressed with a .22 lr that can shoot 1 inch or under at 100 yards though. It can be done, but most out of the box can't do it that I have seen. 50 yards would be a better test for a 22lr in my opinion.

I used to have a savage 110E when I was about 18 or 19. It had a cheap 3-9x32 bushnell scope on it. With winchester silvertips I had no problem shooting under 2 inches with it at 100 yards. And I only weighed like 90 lbs. It darn near knocked me down every time I shot it. If I had a centerfire I couldn't get to shoot better than 3 inches I would be looking to get rid of it. Unless I just was not a very good shooter.

I had an AK that couldn't shoot better than 4 inches at 50 yards though. And that was scoped! I didn't keep it very long. Come to think of it my SKS was not all that accurate either.

Paul

I normally only shoot 3 shot groups with sporter weight barrels. I did shoot 5 shot groups with heavy barrel rifles and varmint cartridges. As for 1 inch groups, my Model 70 Super Shadow has managed to shoot a lot of groups under an inch, some of them way under. But any single group is pretty meaningless. I try to shoot at least 3 3 shot groups with the given load, obviously the more groups that are recorded, the better. And I believe I could go out to the range tomorrow under reasonable conditions (semi calm wind, not too hot) and shoot 3 or 4 groups with it and its' preferred load and average under an inch for those groups. Now I have a 6.5x55 Howa that has shot groups as small as .225 for 3 shots at 100 yards, but has a tough time averaging 1.5 inches for multiple groups. I swore that I would get a load for it that could make the 1.5 inch average or I would sell it. I think I am there. Guess I need to go to the range tomorrow and make sure that I am still there.
I guess my point is that any rifle can shoot a one inch 3 shot group at 100 yards. If you shoot enough groups, you may even get one group that is only a half inch or a quarter inch. One group means absolutely nothing. Conssistency is what we really are looking for and a rifle that can shoot 3 three shot groups that measure less than 1.5 inches is better than a rifle that shoots one half inch group and two 2+ inch groups, even though they "average" the same.

Not counting my savage 11FL in .223 (which will definately shoot under 1"), I have 2 others, a Rem 700 in 270 thats about 30 years old and a Browning Micro Hunter in 7mm-08. The Browning had a lot of work done to it to get it to shoot. A bedding and trigger job were necessary. Before that it couldn't shoot better than 2 1/2" which was fine but not good enough for me.
I have a Ruger 77 in 300 Win Mag that can do it but only when everything else is perfect, including me. It averages about 1 1/2".
But like some of the other guys were saying, there are a good amount of rifles that can do it but the shooter isn't up to it. Some days you just 'get in a groove' and shoot those tiny groups.
My last outing, my Savage 17HMR with a heavy barrel put 5 rounds into a hole that looks like a .30 cal hole at 50 yds.

I have drove and met several guys make claims of the one hole groups. Never once could someone reproduce thier claims including myself. I have had wonderful days at the range with 4 sub.5MOA groups and then next week, I am there shrugging my shoulders.

This hobby will drive you nuts.