strange slug issue
 

I had a weird problem last year while hunting in a shotgun only area. I'm shooting a mossburg 500trophy slugster. It has the rifled, ported barrel and a scope on the cantilever scope mount. I'm sighted in about2" high at 50 yards and they are about dead on at 100 yards. I always use 2 3/4 lightfield sabot's and have alway's been pleased with their performance. Now to the problem. I shotat a doe last year off a steady rest, the doe was at 97 yards. My first shot missed, I couldn't believe it and took a second shot and the deer dropped.When I looked at the deer I saw that I hit it in the top of the skull. The deer was looking at me over it's shoulder so my left to right seemed great but obviously the slug hit about 16-18 inches high. I went home and tried shooting off a good rest and sure enough I'm hitting high over a foot. I tried it at 50 yards and I'm 1 3/4 to 2 inches high. Itried a few regular rifled slugs at 100 and they dropped about 8 inches and were dead on at 50. What on earth could cause the slugs to rise?I'm going to try several other brands this yearto see what happens. The incident last year has puzzled me ever since.

RE: strange slug issue
 

Goodness, could be anything from loose barrel not tightened down, bad scope, barrel too much oil. You are going to have to do much more diagnosis.

RE: strange slug issue
 

I agree, it could be a lot of things. I would check the scope and make sure it isn't loose or broken. Good luck

RE: strange slug issue
 

I had a scope's reticle come loose and it made my zero wander pretty badly out past 50 yds. It was hard to detect until it got bad enough to make the reticle turncounter-clockwise inside the scope housing.

If your scope mount and everything else is tight, try a different scope of any kind on your gun. Sight it in, and shoot several groups. My money lies on a scope prob since a cantelevered design doesn't let your zero change when swapping barrels.

Good luck.

RE: strange slug issue
 

what kind of scope are you using?

RE: strange slug issue
 

You probably already know this, but just in case, make sure you are not resting on a hard surface. The gun can bounce and cause it to shoot high.

Other than that, tear it down, remount the scope, sight in at 50 yds. Then shoot at 100 yds, and adjust scope to hit dead on. Then shoot at 50 (which is my normal range for most deerI shoot). My guess is that you will not have to think about elevation for shots out to 125-150, assuming a mid-chest aiming point.

RE: strange slug issue
 

I should have given more info. I checked the gun over and didn't find anything loose so I immediately suspected the scope. I put on a different scope and it shot exactly the same way. Unfortunately I don't remember the brand name on either scope but I do know they are not really high quality. It doesn't make sense to me because the lightfields shot well before and the regular rifled slugs dropped at 100 like they should when I tested it afterwards. For some reason the lightfields would rise about 1 foot at 100 yards.

RE: strange slug issue
 

It is not a problem with the slug unless you picked up a different kind. Like sighted it in with the lightfield reduced load and then used reg loads. You say you put on another scope and it shot the same way. Did you zero that scope in? You can't just put a different scope on and expect it to be zeroed.

RE: strange slug issue
 

I put on the second scope and zeroed in at 50 yards again. I then tried it at 100 and the slugs were about a foot high. I had a local firearms expert check it out atthe range with me and he had no explanation for it. I thought it had to be the scope so I tried a second one and it still did it. I have used the lightfields for 3-4 seasons with excellent results before this. In factthey worked perfectly at the range before the season started. Idon't have a clue why this is happening.

RE: strange slug issue
 

I would suggest sighting it in zero at 100 yards, then see where it is hitting at 50. That would be my next step.

RE: strange slug issue
 

That's just wierd.

I would think a hard rest will be OK, as long as you always shoot from the same kind of rest. It will change the point of impact for a given load, but it should have the same effect with every shot.
I prefer to sight in using a solid rest to make sure the gun is shooting to the right place. Thennote any differences while shooting off hand.

WAIT A MINUTE!
You mentioned sabot slugs in your first post, but then rifled slugs in your second.
For a rifled barrel, you want sabot slugs. Use rifled slugs for smoothbores.
Is this the difference, or did I miss something?

RE: strange slug issue
 

This all happened with the lightfields. I tried regular old rifled slugs just to see if they would rise like tha sabots but they dropped just like they should. I have used the regular rifled slugs in the past with very good grouping but they seem to drop considerably compaired to sabots. They really dirty up the rifling in the barrel but they shoot very well out of my gun out to 75 yards.

RE: strange slug issue
 

I agree with the others. Sight in at 100 yards and verify that you are getting good groups. Then see where it hits at 50 yards. I have never been a big fan of close range sight ins. When I look at the ballistics of a bullet and it shows it being dead on at one distance, rising and then falling and being dead on at another distance I always pick the farthest distance to sight my gun in at. It seems to be a more accurate way of doing it to me is all. I tried it the other way with my .17HMR once and it didn't work out all that well. Nothing like what you are seeing though.

I can think of a few things that might contribute to it, but I don't know if they would cause that much of a difference. One would be sight height. The height of your scope above the barrel will effect the percieved trajectory of the bullet. And the other would be parallax. The scope is most like fixed for parallax at one distance, like 50 or 100 yards depending on the what the scope is designed for. Depending on how your eye is lined up with the scope the bullet could impact in a different spot if the scope is not parallax free at that yardage. This is why people like to have the scope as low as possible when they mount it. It helps you keep more consitant anchor on the stock when you look thru the scope and doesn't effect percieved trajectory as much. Like I said though, I don't know if those two would throw you off that much at 100 yards though. Maybe combined they could? You can check your parallax by setting up some targets at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. Put your gun in a nice solid rest. Then look at each target and bob your head up and down and left to right without touching the rifle or rest. On some of the targets the cross hairs will move in relationship to the target. The distance where the cross hairs don't move no matter how you look thru the scope is the distance where it is parallax free. This is what the objustable objectives do on the target and varmint scopes. The correct the parallax for any distance. The key is you need to know the distance to dial it in, or do the head bob thing to varify it.

Another thing I would look at would be some sort of damage or defect. You said it was cantelever mount. Could it be bent? If it got knocked out of alignment somehow this might cause a problem. Or maybe the way the gun is assembled, like stress on the barrel from over tightening some screws. Maybe the crown of the barrel is damaged?

You might want to have a gunsmith look it over and see if he can find anything. It could even be your scope mounts are not aligned very well and putting stress on your scope or something.

Good luck,
Paul

RE: strange slug issue
 

I feel it's one of two things.

Either the AMMO.

Or YOU.

You say it's good with rifled slugs, dropping some at 100 yards, right? Only with the lightfields do you have these "flyers" (rising shots @ 100 tds). Points away fror YOU and towards AMMO, right?

I can't belive that a slug that's truely zero'd at 50 yards has a rise of over a foot at 100 yards. I have to check some sites for trajectories. Where's that darn jcchart guy when you need him? When you don't want him around he's right under foot and when you need him he's no where to be found!

JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC! !!!!!!!!!!

Maybe something has changed and it's not exactly the "same old" lightfields, but a foot high. Are ya scared of the lightfields or something for some reason........are ya flinching and lifting on firing?

JJJJJJJJJJJJCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC!!!!!!!

(Just don't call him late for dinner - he can get a might bit awnry)

RE: strange slug issue
 

jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj

cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc cc .....................

where is that rascal?

Think I hear him coming..........

RE: strange slug issue
 

I don't want to say it is ballistically impossible, but it think it is.

If the other shells are truely shooting correctly. It is ballistically impossible that the lightfields are shooting 12" high. It is simply not possible forthat bullet to rise over a foot at 100yds.

Here is a quote from Lightfields own page concerning sighting in their shells..

*Slug guns MUST be zeroed (sighted-in) while the slug is supersonic (above 1220 ft/sec in velocity). Therefore you must zero your gun 2 inches high at 50 yards, absolutely centered above your point of aim. You will then be dead-on zeroed at 100 yards because gravity will see to it. Zeroing at 50 yards also cuts down (by approximately 60%) your chance of adjusting windage error into your scope setting.

If you still believe it is the shells I recomend youclick belowand then post the question to... Todd Fritz... on Tar Hunts own chat board....

http://www.lightfieldslugs.com/lightfield/ecatalog/index.cfm?pageid=250&id=2&cfid=4491419&amp ;cftoken=26804520

RE: strange slug issue
 

Out of curiouslity, why would the slug need to be supersonic in order to sight it in? Are they saying that as the bullet slows down it greatly destablilizes and cannot be sighted in correctly?

I sight my muzzle loader in at 130 yards, I doubt it supersonic at that distance and I have no touble with accuracy from 25 to 150 yards.

I just don't get why that would make a difference is all. I'm not saying it can't, I just don't understand it is all. However I am far from an engineer. All I know is what I have tried. And I have helped someone set up a shotgun with those shells and we did it at 100 yards with no problems.

Paul

RE: strange slug issue
 

Paul...I will find out what I can for you...I won't have time to work on it till monday as I am leaving for the weekend. I was telling Uncle matt that I had never that outside of Lightfields comments...

RE: strange slug issue
 

I'm just curious is all, you don't need to bust your ass trying to figure it out or anything. I was wondering if there was a reason according to physics why this would be the case is all. The only thing I can think of is the slugs don't fly stable after they drop to a certain speed. Of course that would effect how they group though.

Paul

RE: strange slug issue
 

This doesn't sound right to me either.

When you zero at a given distance, the bullet will hit high out to that distance, and low beyond it. The only exception is at point blank range, the impact point will still be slightly below the line of sight.

RE: strange slug issue
 

NEVER ZERO your gun LAST YEAR, and think it will shoot to the same POI this year without testing it to verify that nothing has gone wrong!

RE: strange slug issue
 

definately agree with eldeguello-usually do agree with what he sez. I alwyas blast a box or two to be sure and insist others hunting on the farm demonstrate their proficiency, too.

I would think sonic or sub-sonic doesn't really matter, or the range. "Zeroing" is dialing in your sight or scope to the point of actual projectile impact at any given range.

Right?

RE: strange slug issue
 

Absolutely right Matt.
It is just coordinating the line of sight with a point on the projectile's trajectory curve.A 'zero' should be verified before hunting, and the hunter should know where the projectile will be in relation to the line of sight at all points out to his maximum shooting distance. Guessing when a life is on the line is not acceptable.

RE: strange slug issue
 

Any luck getting this thing fixed RML ?
I'm very curoius to hear the solution when you find one.

RE: strange slug issue
 

I have not had an opportunity or time to do anything with it. It seems like summers are way to busy between work and home to do much of anything. I did sight in at 50 yards exactly like lightfield recommends. I remember reading on one of the websites somewhere that the reason they want you to sight in while the slug is supersonic is so that the wind won't come in to play. Supposedly when the slug is not supersonic the wind can blow the slug all over the place. I think this was all on Tar Hunts website somewhere. I'm not ruling out that the cause of this is all me, however the regular rifled slugs shoot exactly like they have in the past and they sure seem to have the same recoil.

RE: strange slug issue
 

With what a slug weighs I wouldn't worry about wind much, unless it was really blowing. Now a .22 hyper vel, or a .17HMR wind is a huge deal at any speed.

A better idea would be to not sight your gun in on a day that it was windy. Seems like common sense to me? Not a bad idea to shoot in the wind though so you can get a feel of what the bullet does.

I have never been a big propenent for sighting at a distance less that you are going to shoot at. Like sighting at 50 or 100 yards a bit high and assuming it will be dead on at a farther range. I think if you are going to hunt at that range you best be shooting at that range to varify you can hit what you aim at.

Not to mention your sope adjustments will be more accurate at longer ranges. Same way with a bow. The farther out you tune or adjust things the more accurate the they will be. I was shooting my .22's the other day. One is sighted in at 25 yards, the other at 50. I was shooting them at 100 yards and both were shooting to the right. I adjusted the scope to compensate. Then moved back to 50 and 25 yards and it was still on even though I moved it. At 100 yards I was making a more precise adjustment to my scope than I was at 50. My groups got better as a result to boot.

I zero my rifles in at the range I want them zeroed at. I don't guess. If I want a 130 or 110 yard zero, that is where I put the target and zero it at. Then I shoot at different ranges to verify the ballistics. Usually the ballistics calculator is pretty close, but not always dead on. My .17 actually shoots flatter than what it is plotted at.

Paul

RE: strange slug issue
 

Hey Paul, you got a favorite calculator you like to use?

RE: strange slug issue
 

This is the one I have been using. Seems to work ok for my needs. I'm not that technical though. I don't own a chrono or anything. I just go buy what the manufacturer lists or take an educated guess.

Big Game Info

Paul

RE: strange slug issue
 

Thanks.
That's better than me.

I usually wait for the ballistics tables to get printed in a magazine for a rough guess, and then go from there on my own measured data.

RE: strange slug issue
 

Paul.........Here is your Lightfield sighting in explanation.....though I am not sure he actual answers the question of why the slug must be subsonic directly...he only makes implications

RE: strange slug issue
 

That would hold true with just about anything. If you sight in with a cross wind it will effect point of impact, duh. I wouldn't however say that sighting in at 50 yards would be more precise, just the opposite in my opinion. Easier, yes, more precise, probably not. If you sighted in with a strong cross wind at 50 yards, then shot at 100 yards on a calm day I bet it would off as well at 100 yards.

My suggestion is to sight in on a calm day at the yardage you want to zero at. If you can't do that then sighting high at 50 would work. Like they say though, I would for sure check it at longer yardages. Too many see this and just sight in at 50 yards never shooting to see what happens at 100. They just assume everything will be ok. Chances are it might not even group well enough to effectively hunt at that distance. This is somehting I would like to know before I shoot at live game, not after.

I do sort of see thier point though. I thought with the heavier bullet it would buck the wind a bit better. I show around 6 or 7 inches of drift with a 10 mph cross wind. I also show it being about 2 inches off 50 yards. That is fairly significant. More than I would have suspected actually. That would be enough for me to limit my shots to 75 yards and in with that ammo. I mean the wind is pretty much always blowing in the winter here.

I'd try the hornady 300 grn sabots and see what happens. They put you right up their with Inline muzzle loader performance.

Paul

RE: strange slug issue
 

Man.. Hornady must have one hell of a marketing machine. Everyone (mistakenly), keeps refering to the new SST's as if they have some improved ballistics quality over other existing sabots.
Not only do they not, they likely will not shoot well in a large number of rifled slug guns. That list would include Savage 210's, Mossberg 695, and any other guns with a rifle twist slower than 1-32.

Here is review of the SST I wrote a few weeks ago...

RE: strange slug issue
 

I didn't say anything about SST's, as a matter of fact the ones I have seen used were not SST's. They were regular hornady 300 grn XTP's like we shoot out of our ML's but in a shotgun shell. My impression was that the SST's are just XTPs with a polymer tip on them. I don't think the ones we tried had the tips. It was a few years ago though. Maybe they switched to SST's or something? I haven't looked at them in a year or so. All I know is they beat the lightfields and other saboted slugs into the ground as far as trajectory and accuracy. It used to be the ML's had an advanage over slug guns in that department. Now with the ammo choices it is leveling out some. They don't carry as much energy as a 1 oz. slug though obviously, they are considerably lighter. Trade offs, trade offs. They were very accurate out of my friends remington auto.

The hornady's have such a great marketing machine and following because for a long time they were the only load of that type on the market. All the other sabots were 1 ounce or more of lead with a horrible BC. Not a jacketed controlled expansion bullet. Although they were designed for pistols and slower velocities. They basically just took your typical ML load and used it for a slug gun instead.

I guess it wouldn't have to be hornady, I merely meant by shooting a lighter better made bullet you might improve your performance some. I wasn't aware that other companies were making the lighter saboted bullets now. I don't use a slug gun very often so I don't keep up on the ammo choices.

"They quote the trajectory from (-.09in) at the barrel, (if you figure out how to accomplish that let me know)."

Sight height is how you accomplish that. The Hornady's were using a sight height of just under an inch and the remingtons were using a sight height of 1.5 inches which is pretty common. Actually some shotguns use higher mounts so you can also use the open sights. Sight height effect the percieved trajectory. I would expect someone reviewing ammo to know something as basic as that.

Paul

RE: strange slug issue
 

I was mistaken in assuming you meant the SST's. That is because the SST'shave thebest ballistics of Hornadys entire line of sabots.
I had also thought the H2K's were 250gr xtp's in fact they are 300gr.

You were in fact refering to the H2K 300gr XTP's.Just for referencethe advertised balistics of the SST's are better, and the Core Lokts even better then the SST's.

Definitelyblackpowder ML's...notnearly astruefor Smokeless ML's.

I haven't heard from anyone besideyou and Ishooting them, so it is hard to judge their overall accuracy. I can say I had alot of trouble with random fliers in my Savage 210. Enough so that it far outweight any ballistics advantage to using them.

Not true, the Remmingtons Core Lokts are older, and the Remmington Copper solids, which have been around even longer,offer competitive ballistics and shoot more accuratly in a wider variety of guns.

Beside Lightfield,(which is now considered somewhat oldschool), very few manufactures"current" sabots are designed around 1.0-1.5oz bullets. Most are 300grand 400grs.

I apologize, I assumed if we were having this conversation you did. Of course thats fine though, as we are all here to learn something new, and enjoy our time.

From the second I wrote that comment I new someone was going to completely miss my point and come back with a ....this is how.....

I understand how.... I was poking fun at the manufacturers use of random sighting heights. I think that it is very misleading to the average shooter to A) use a negative starting trajectory at all....ORB.) to have different manufacturers using differnt starting trajectories.
Manufacturers should either post actual trajectory from the barrel. OR decide to use one agreed upon scope height.

This post is not meant to be argumentative, although I now I often come across that way. Hopefully it is informative, I know I learned a bit while posting it. That is all I can ask.

RE: strange slug issue
 

Just as an aside this is the 9th, 10th and 11th, shot I ever took out of my muzzleloader. The bullet was none other than the Hornady 300gr XTP's. (100 yd range)

RE: strange slug issue
 

I sort of sounded like a prick too, that was not my intention. I agree they should list the drop in inches with the muzzle being zero to compare stuff accurately. However they are listing what the round will do in it's optimum set up and using the specs that will make thier product look the best. Weclome to advertising. I thought you just didn't understand how they reached those measurements. I'm sure it was right off from a ballistics calculator. I didn't catch the sarcasm, sorry.

I think you if you worked on your load some more you could get better groups that 100 yards. If you haven't already. Unless your rifle just doesn't like those bullets. I get great groups with them at 100 yards. Normally around an inch or so off from a bench. Usually all three bullet holes are touching. But at 150 out of my remington they open up a LOT. My buddies Knight shoots them pretty good at that distance though. I switched to the Precision Rifle bullets in a 350 grn version and they shoot much better at longer distances out of my rifle.

I have never heard of the other rounds for shotguns until recently. The only thing I heard or saw was the Hornadys about 5 years ago. Before that I didn't even deer hunt so I didn't pay any attention to them.

I agree though, depending on the rifle they may not shoot to well. If it was made to shoot a slower bullet it might not work too great. Sort of like shooting a light sabot with a fast powder out of an old side lock ML.

Paul

RE: strange slug issue
 

I agree completelywith you that thegrouping will come in alot. My point was that it only took me ...8 shots ever with that gun.... to get to that group. That is from showing up at the range having not yetsighted the scope and never having evenshot a muzzleloader.

(Also keep in mind I was using a lee dipper to measure the powder.... not too conducive to tight groups.)

RE: strange slug issue
 

I think I found the problem with the gun. I thought some of you that replied might be interested in what caused this.

I finally got some time to try to figure out what was wrong. I used a lazer bore sight on the gun and checked the second scope I put on the gun. It was dead on. This scope was a 2.5 power. I took that one off and put the adjustable 1.5-4.5 power scope that I had on when the gun was shooting high. I again used the lazer and with the scope set at 1.5 power I adjusted it until it was dead on. I then turned the power of the scope up and as I did the red dot rose up above the crosshairs. I was aiming at an object only ten yards away and at 4.5 power the red dot was about two inches high. I think the combination of sighting in two inches high at 50 yards and then being at full power with a busted scope caused my point of impact to rise over a foot.

I immediately pulled the scope off and put the 2.5 power back on and bore sighted that one. Unfortunately I didn't have time to take the gun out today to try it but I think my priblem was caused by a cheap scope that busted.

RE: strange slug issue
 

RML,

Thanks for the final reply, I knew something didn't sound right from the begining. I am glad you got it figured out. Now, lets see how it shoots. I'll be looking forward toa range report!


JC

RE: strange slug issue
 

The only problem I can see is that when reading your previous posts you stated that you tried both scopes and they did the same thing. I agree a defective scope can change your impact when you change the power setting. This is why many swear by fixed power scopes. However I have not seen that problem in years. The newer scopes just don't seem to do it.

Is this not the same scope you tried already and said it shot a foot high as well? Bore sighting it with a lazer probably will not change anything unless you are adjusting your mounts.

Something you could try is re zeroing your scope (setting it back the the factory settings) or trying a scope that has not been messed with yet. This means you can put it in a V-block and turn it and the cross hairs will not move in a circle. Take that scope and mount it to the gun. Then use the lazer bore sight and see if it is off. If it is way off it might be that your rings need lapped or the mounts need shimmed. Honestly I would take it to a gun shop and tell them what is happening and ask them to mount your scope for you. It costs like 30 bucks in my area.

Good luck getting it figured out.

Paul