Remington SPS ????
 

Hey all I'm looking at buying a Remington SPS in 300 Ultra Mag.I know the SPS is suposed to replace the ADL.Should the action Quality be the same as say a BDL or CDL.
I'm going to crab can the stock and replace with a Boyds thumbhole sporter in nutmag and to it off with a Sightron SII 4.5-10 x 44 mm.
What is all your opinons on this.
Thanks BBJ

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

As a point of FACT, there is NO difference in the action of the SPS, the ADL, the BDL....or the CDL - except for the FINISH. When Remington machines the 700 actions, they are all done on the same lines. There are only two variations, before finishing - short action and long action. The raw materials are exactly the same....the machining is exactly the same....the heat treating is exactly the same. In fact, before finishing, a particular action could go into ANY of the different models. The actions are made in one portion of the plant...and the finishing/ assembly in other areas. Actions for each model (in the white) are simply selected from a common parts "dump". Then, they move on to be finished.

Do not make the mistake of many others, in assuming that the different models are somehow made differently...or of different materials. That is utter nonsense. It's a popular misconception, for some reason - but it simply isn't so.

There, of course, is a difference in the finishes. The bluing, I mean. The parts are polished to the same degree before bluing. It's simply a matter of whether this or that particular part will go to the SPS area....or the CDL area. This determines what kind of buing it gets....(either matte, or the deep bluing). There is absolutely NO determination made beforehand, as to say, CDL parts, for example, getting a better polish....or more careful machining...or anything of the sort.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Gorse speaks the truth. I have talked to Remington several times and gotten the same story. They have this 700 action production down to a ruthlessly efficient process. The make only two action and two bolts. The bolt heads (I think there are five now) are made separately, and silver soldered into the bolt bodies. I have built several bench rest rifles on the cheapest 700 action (ADL), and after truing and lapping, they shoot one hole.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Hmmm, good to hear. I just got an ADL in 30-06 a month or so ago and was wondering the same thing. I like the action just fine. It seems fairly accureate and reliable. The action on others felt mysteriously the same. EJ

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

BBJ,

I did the exact same thing you are talking about with the exact same caliber. I got the pepper colored Boyds thumbhole to be exact. Except I opted to have it trued and rebarreled with a 30" Lilja.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Elkhuntr04,
How much was the stock,and did you use the SPS version of the 700?
Thanks guys for clearing it that up,I always bought the upper end Rem's.I was just wondering if the put plastic parts in it some where,or cut the corners to lower the price.The finish I could give the least about.
BBJ

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

BBJ,

210 installed. I think my gunsmith just used the ADL or which ever version has the hinged floorplate. I do believe that the stock was not ready to drop in. I sure hope(I know)they didn't do anything to cut corners on the action. I bought the gun specifically to make a custom rifle from.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

I bought a new BDL SS last year and comparing it to a SPS that my dealer has I noted that the SPS is a bit rougher. It would be a good donor action to build a custom on but not much more then that.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

The bottom metal certainly isn't a nicely finished either and it seems to be made of a cheaper allow than what the BDL's use.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Ah yes, here we go. I knew it wouldn't be long before the "I won't believe it - regardless of complete lack of evidence or information to prove it" crowd...would come out to insist that there must be a difference in materials or machining on the SPS/ADL....vs. the "better" Remingtons. Any difference in "smoothness" likely has to do with the surface finish (the matte bluing on the SPS)....and the fact that no two rifles are ever exactly alike, in this regard (just as no two trigger groups will ever feel exactly the same). As to the bottom metal....nope...wrong. It's exactly the SAME - made on the same equipment, of the same materials. Just as with the other parts, before it's blued, there is NO difference. Again, you may be mistaking the surface finish for a "different grade of metal". Unless, of course, you've done the metalurgical testing to prove your assertion..... no ?.....I didn't think so.

Just because you don't like the "cheaper" finish on the SPS/ADL (the matte bluing)....this means nothing as regards the materials. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion....as are you gentlemen. Just please don't try to sell what you don't have.

How do I know my assertions are correct on this ? One of my best friends was, until he retired just recently, an Industrial Engineer with Remington....working in the Ilion, NY plant. Not only do I have this information directly from John....but I have been throughout the facility myself (one of the perks of having a good friend in a position of authority there)....and I have seen the production lines....the foundry....the barrel works, etc. I have watched receivers being machined....and barrels being reamed. But.... if you choose not to believe it....because your empirical judgement is far better than any factual evidence to the contrary....you go right ahead.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Gorse, you sound a little heated about this whole thing. These guys were just trying to help by giving their opinion and feelings about it.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Good observation, UThunter. No, I'm not actually angry about it. Perhaps a little annoyed. This is one of those "old wive's tales" that just won't seem to die. As I said, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. It just gets in my hair when opinions, not backed up by ANY hard evidence, are projected as facts. So, I thought I'd (rather emphatically) attempt to dispel this silliness...yet again. (I've attempted this on a number of forums, for a number of years....the message never seems to sink in, for some.)

However, if I have given the impression of anger, or any offense (to anyone)...my apologies. That was not the intention.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Gorse,
I hope you don't take this the wrong way,but when you see a Rem CDL @ 649.00 and look at a Rem SPS @ 377.99.I tend to wonder about quality.
Thats why I was asking about the action,and since this is the first year it is out,I don't wanna get into a Rem 710 issue.
The finish is what I realy like about it,no-glare matte.I just wanted a project gun to do and I figuered I would work on a elk rifle,with the price of the gun + the stock I still come under the CDL price by almost a 100 bucks.
But thaks for clearing that up.
BBJ

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

No problem at all, Jack. I heartily agree... the large price difference would cause anyone to "wonder" about quality issues. That is an eminently rational and intelligent reaction. But, there is a difference between "wondering" about it....and deciding, within the channels of one's own mind, that there MUST be a quality difference - usually based only on preconceived notions, or prejudice (and not supported by any facts, or specialized knowledge). Hence my efforts to dispel the myth.
Asking the question, as you did, was simply the intelligent thing to do....if one doesn't know, it's wise to try and find out.

It really can be brought down to a simple principle, I think - keeping an open mind, until one has enough facts in hand to be able to arrive at an informed conclusion. That can be tough, as good information is not always easily obtainable....but it starts with thinking things through - and not allowing our personal "foibles" to colour our judgement.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Wow it did get your panties in a wad. First off I mentioned that my BDL action is better finished then the SPS I handled. I think that is plenty of hard evidence in my book especially since I have gone out of my way buying Remingtons in about every variation they make. Knowing how Remington has very little quality control or none and how much time the average Remington worker puts into a particular rifle the quality is very inconsistent. A very good friend makes a nice living fixing and upgradingremingtons and making them what they should be and hopefully Remington will continue their downward slide thereby keeping him in business. The last 17 years the quality had just been going steadily downhill with only the good ones being sold to JamesB. I view them as donor actions at bestand that is it just usingthe action and bolt.. I am not even bothering with their floorplates anymore..Now what did you want to hear?

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Well, as a last comment, I will say this. Your assertion that Remington "has no quality control....and that the quality has been sliding downhill for 17 years".... is just exactly the kind of unsubstantiated drivel with which I have taken issue. You spoke about "hard evidence", then made this incredibly broad assertion - which you cannot prove in any way. I happen to know that this statement you've made is nonsense. So, because you don't like the finish on the SPS...it's obviously inferior to the other models ? Baloney. Your friend, who accurizes Remingtons, says that they are junk ? If so, then why would he waste his time with them ? Obviously, they have some good potential (so they are not junk, are they ?) ...or your friend is a fool, perhaps ? Certainly either you or he have seen Remington's facilities...so that you have some real evidence to support your claims ? Or you have metalurgy reports, which indicate that the "cheaper" Remingtons are truly inferior to the more expensive models ? No? I didn't think so.

I've owned 6 Remingtons (1-Model 7 and 5- 700s) over the last 15 years, or so. Every one has been a very good rifle. I have never experienced a bad barrel (all of mine would shoot 1 MOA or less @ 100 metres, with the right loads)....I have never had any reliability issues, either. I have not seen any decrease in quality, as well. The metalurgy is the same as it always has been...unless my friend, the engineer, is lying. Hmm...so, I'd have to say, in addition to the direct knowledge I have of my particular rifles...and the indirect knowledge I have from my friend (who WORKED at Remington, in charge of many of the production processes they use)....and the things that I have seen there (which contradict your assertions).... that you are likely just talking out of your a**.

If you don't like Remingtons, that's fine....don't buy them. Are they the greatest thing since sliced bread....or the finest - made firearms in existence ? Of course not. Are they perfect ? Again, of course not. They are no more (or less) perfect than any other similar firearms. They are certainly equal to the others on the market, in the same price ranges...and perhaps, better than some.

As I said before, please don't try to sell - what you don't have. Some of us do know better... and are not buying the bull.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

For whatever it's worth (remember, information is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!) the Rems DO use the same actions (unless you get a hand finished or "touched up" Custom Shop version) in all their guns. The simple point being made was that the ADL/SPS 700s feel like they are full of sand compared too a bright, shiny and highly polished BDL/CDL. But wouldn't a Ferrari look and feel like chit also if it were merely primered instead of painted? ;)

As for the QC of Rem, I gotta admit that across the board, most of their guns are decent. BUT on their cheaper guns they DO seem to have alot more troubles. BUT is that really a QC problem or the fact that more and more of the parts being used in those lines is stamped potmetal or molded plastic? I have a 20 year old ADL 06 whose action is as smooth as butter and has been since day one. I'm sure if I even painted the bolt on my Sako with that "blacksand" coating of Rems, it to would feel like chit. I also HATE that quality of that finish, within a year or two it will turn silver, slick up and the gun will rust badly if abnormal attention is not paid too it. I recommend a stainless SPS for just such reasons.

Dats my .01/2c,
RA

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

I don't like the finish so it is inferior..not exactly what I said I just said it was inferior to that of my one year old remington ss BDL.

In all my life I have never come across more defects in a rifle then when buying Remingtons no one other manufacturereven comes close. Their quality has taken a decided turn for the worst and I can point to the late 80's as the starting point. I have been buying Remingtons since the early 70's and have many older then that .. I have had lots of themcustomized which turned out to be good guns although I could have bought a Sako with the money I spent putting them up to my specs. Three unfortunately came from the "custom shop" a mistake I will never make again. Never has so much money gained me so little gun. When It comes to Remingtons I basically like the action and trigger as well as the physical weight, when the gun is built right it is a great combination.


Another Gorse misquote

...my gunsmith friend never said they were junk ..where did I say he said that?. He absolutely loves Remingtons when they are nice and straight and have a decent barrel and trigger on them. If they show up at his shop in bad condition they leavethe way they should have left REmington but never will. Ever since they made their little Mass retailer deals Walmart/Kmart (coincidentally in the mid 80's)production has been the driver and quality has taken a back seat or trunk in this case. If your Industrial engineer buddy at Remington didn't pick up on this I am not surprised since many companies not just Remington don't know how to put out a quality product and being an industrial engineer has nothing to do with Quality, his job was to put out x amount of POS per day and make sure the process goes smoothly. Remington has ceased being a gun company a long time ago and only care about bottom line and are milking the 700 for all its worth and resting on their laurels. Believe it or not I used to live up the road from theircorporate hdqtrs and many of my neighbors were and no longer are employees there. I have personally never met a happy employee that worked there, not a one.About a year ago I posted "My Last Remington" go look it up and see just what I said about them. To wrap this up here is my final say to you on the matter .New remingtons are only good for donor actions and that is as far as it goes.. Barrel ,recoil lug,trigger and cheap floorplate and stockget sold on Ebay immediately. I would take a Savage or Howa over one in a heart beat if I needed a factory rifle for the gun safe . Those 2 companies have quality control and Remington would do well to mimic them. . TheHard evidence you are looking for is that I have spent thousands of dollars on Remington products over the years, probably could have gone on many great hunting trips had I not done this in retrospect.. I didn't read a article on them and form an opinion or listen to idiotic internet hearsay .I went out to a full service gun store looked at them and formed an opinion and compared them to anydthing out there and usually purchased them knowing that something or another would have to be changed modified or fixed . In effect I become a guinea pig . After 50+ remingtons I have plenty of "Hard Evidence" and your opinion starting to sound like a lot of Total BS. When you purchase as many Remingtons as I have and seen the quailty swings and have money come out of your pocket and dealt with their customer servicethen you can feel qualified to speak about it. Right now I don't think you have a clue. BTW you can use the ignore button on my posts as I have graciously done the samefor you. Oh yeah and untwist your panties:D

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Same Action, and knock it if you will but I bet they will shoot one inch and most likely less.. I will soon know as I have one ordered. Never yet seen a Remington with a load they like that won't better one inch. My last one , a 2002 shot under half inch. Three shot 100 yard groups, (257 Roberts)

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

"New remingtons are only good for donor actions and that is as far as it goes.. Barrel ,recoil lug,trigger and cheap floorplate and stockget sold on Ebay immediately."

Wow! This tread has really heated up. From my experience, the above statement is pure horse hockey. I have 2 Model 700 BDL's and other than minor trigger adjustments that took a total of 15 minutes, they have both been excellent rifles. Both of mine (.270 and .223) will shoot 1 MOA on a good day with factory ammo.The ones I see in my part of the country (and I am only looking at BDL's and CDL's with wood stocks) have been of excellent quality. I am currently looking at a 700 CDL in .243 and both that I have looked at so far have been beautiful....nice slick actions and beautiful wood to metal fit and finish. I see these rifles bashed from time to time, but just about every "Poll" I look at, Remingtons rank right at the top. If you don't like them, don't buy them, but statements like the above are pure baloney and unfounded.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

OEH - I have as many Remingtons through my shop in one year than you haveowned in your entire life. They do vary a little in quality and there is some truth to the production demands of having big contracts with Wal-Mart and other big retail giants.

But Remingtons totally dominate every aspect of competitive shooting - at least where bolt action rifles are involved. And there are more aftermarket accessories available for Remingtons than just about every other bolt action combined. Quite a few are available only for Remingtons. Our military chose the Remington 700 as their official sniper rifle. Law enforcement sniper rifles are totally dominated by Remington. All this is no coincidence.

Roskoe

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Rank at the top where? Like I said before they have a excellent design ..they fail in the execution. Plenty of better values out there if you want a factory rifle. I will not deal with a factory Remington again..I will however use their actions in a custom rifle as well as a Model 70 or Mauser. Mr Texagun you can put me on the ignore list as well. No feelings hurt

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

You know as a gunsmith you better damn have more guns come thru your shop your are a gunsmith arent' you?. Vary a little in quality? We will be on total disagreement on that for a long time.

Ok Roscoe, you need to read my posts as well since you obviously didn't. Those rifles that dominate competition are straight factory rifles now are they? Yeah right. The military sniper rifle is also right out of the box now isn't it? Like I said before a great design to build a custom rifle on but again I say no thanks to the production crap they put out..if you want a rough barrel, bolts that rest on one lug and very rough barrels go ahead and buy one. BTW why do you have so many remingtons come thru your shop?Must be the freaking excellent quality. I tell things the way I seee them I am no gunsmith but I have been around machinists, engineers and gunsmithsmy entire life and love guns and I can tell a f***ing donkey from a racehorse thank you.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

"Plenty of better values out there if you want a factory rifle."

Exactly what would you recommend? I haven't found the "perfect rifle" yet....but I have enjoyed the search.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Your robviously happy with your factory remingtons. and know a lot about guns no need for my input.:D.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

I have bought a ton of rifles and had my own gun shop for about 20 years. Onkly Savage and Remington right from the box have always shot sub one inch groups. Never seen one that wouldn't. I had to send one Savage back that had the scope base holes drilled out of line. Never yet have had to send back a Remington either for a customer or for myself with the exception of a 788 that the bolt handle came off of. When I buy a new rifle, Remington is always the first to be considered because they have always been deadly accurate and totally reliable.

From the polls that I see and the feed back and recommendations that I read on this site, those who have problems with them are sure in the minority. Therefore I quess I am not the only lucky one who has had good service from the 700 family of rifles. If I am just lucky then I will take it and be happy.:D

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Oldelkhunter - OK - if you have been drinking again, its time to stop and sober up now. If you haven't, maybe its time to pour one . . .:)

Legions of folks who could spend their money on any rifle they wish bring Remingtons to custom gunsmiths to have them upgraded from over-the-counter factory rifles to custom rifles for various applications. Krieger barrels, Jewell triggers, McMillan stocks . . . And we go through the actions and true everything up. If Rugers or Winchesters were a better action for this application, then that's what we would be building them on. Or if Sako made a factory gun that was superior to a customized Remington, then we would all be shooting Sako's. But most folks are choosing Remington. Are we all victims of smoke-and-mirrors advertising?

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Roskoe. You are right. The poll on this very site shows that more than twice as many people prefer Remington to any other brand and I quess doubles the next two choices. Can,t be a fluke. I have had a couple rifles built on 700 actions but only because I couldn't get left hand bolts that I wanted or I had shot out the original barrel. This I did on at least two rifles. A 308 and a 30-06. Are they perfect? No are any of them perfect? No.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

I find this very hard to believe James I think this is a real story to be quite honest

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Roskoe I thought I would post what I had written previously pertaining to remingtons and how they can be built into nice rifles. Seems your too lazy to look up my last posts and just want to shoot your mouth off. Remingtons are justt too inconsistent in quality for my tastes in a factory rifle when Savage and Howa, Sako and Kimber offer much much much more. I think the drinking comment was a little over the top but you know this is the internet and people talk trash all the time feel free even though you don't know me..BTW my buddy the gunsmith rarely has any time for anything being a full time gunsmith and all. How do you find the time to be replying to all these inquiries here?. HMMM i bet i know why you have all that free time

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Of course, the SPS has a matte blued finish. I suppose you don't like their shotguns either.

And Graybeard!

I bet many people have no clue about your absurd claim.

Heh, Graybeard would tell you the EXACT opposite! He has over two hundred Remington rifles.

Besides, what exactly is your problem with Remington i.e. finish or accuracy?

Uh, don’t compare expensive rifles with less expensive ones. Besides, I thought you were comparing Remington’s present rifles with the ones produced before the late 80's.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Many of my friends and hunting partners use Remingtons and none of us have seen the horror stories I hear from all of two or three members of this forum. Like I said the poll here speaks for itself we can't all be liars if if you think I am. I just have had no problems. Sorry, I feel guilty for getting all the good ones. My lastest one is a 2002 model, 257 Roberts four thenths inch group with factory Federal 120 grain Noslers right from the box. The first three shots after sight in. Thats about what I expect. Its just that that one liked the first load I tried. I will have another new one to test in about a month. I am sure it will beat one inch the first time out. It will be a hunting rifle and I am also sure it will function flawlessly. Once in a while I have had to bend the front of the magazine spring up just a tad. Thats as serious a problem as I ever have. Never seen a proble with the extracter or ejecter or the safty.

I don't sell Remingtons anymore as I don't have the store now. I don't own any Remington stock and have no reason on this planet to make any claims about any brand that that are not valid for me.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Old Elk Hunter: Please accept my apologies for the comment about drinking. You were sounding like a two year old throwing a tantrum, and I thoughtthe comment
might be a "reality check" for what appeared to beopinions based more on emotionthan fact. I did read your post(s) and do agree that, in its unaltered factory form, the Remington 700 is not as good overall in quality as higher end factory guns likeKimbers.

I think you will find thatmany gunsmiths are not computer folks. I'm not either, but my wife bought me one for the shop. I like to take a break every couple of hours, and enjoy puttering with the computer while I drink my coffee. Although you might prefer that I play solitare,I plan to continue to participate in this board. The exchange of ideas is stimulating . . . .

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Hey guys simmer down,thanks for all the heated discusion.

Here is the jist,
I ran into a guy last weekend,and was talking to him.He builds his own guns and said that if I get that SPS he would build me a one of his rifles.
So I have opted for that,it is called a 300 Allen magnum.It sounds pretty exciting.
He showed me his data and what not.It's built off a .409 somthing or other case can push a 220 nosler at around 3800 FPS.
He also has a .257 and a 7mm,the 257 AM runs about 4100 fps with custom made 140 grbullets out of Canada and the 7mm right around 3600 fps with a 200 gr bulet.
The 257 and the 7mm are in production now and are tested.
Got to remember these are out of 30 inch barrels and are built for long range hunting.
BBJ

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

BBJ,

The same gunsmith has my Rem 700 action and 300 RUM barrel sitting in his shop. Kirby is an awesome guy to work with. I chose the 270 AM which has been his biggest hit so far. I chose that because of the ease of reloading.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

Yes he is,I realy enjoyed talking to him.That man realy knows his stuff.
I was wondering how may pepole knew of him here on the net,that was fast.
He realy is a great guy.
BBJ

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

BBJ,

I have seen his name pop up a few times on this site. I found out about him on longrangehunting.com. Do you think you will use the gun as a long range tool? With his 270 AM he killed a chuck at 1114 yards. Pretty good out of a sporter rifle.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

I plan to,but afterI get the gun I will have to save up to buy the optics and the range finders to do it.
I'm planing on a sporter so I can pack it around still,he said some where around 8.5lbs is the norm.
He asked me to come by and shoot some of his stuff next time I was around and I will take him up on it.
BBJ

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

BBJ,

I plan to also. Yeah I think if you get that 30" barrel fluted it comes in around 8.5. I think mine will come in at around 10 lbs with optics. I am just having a 4.5-14x44 Ziess Mil-Dot put on mine. Still need the range finder. Should have the recoil of a 22-250 he said.

Ask to shoot his 338 Kahn. Very neat gun. If I didn't live far away I would go up there and shoot with him.

RE: Remington SPS ????
 

He was telling me about the Kahn,now that sound like a BOOMer.He was saying that the Khan was comparble balisticaly to the 50 BMG the only thing it was lacking was FT/LBS.
BBJ