30-06 vs 7mag
 

Which is better for elk/moose at the range of 250-400 yards??????
P.S. i feel like i am always asking this ?i think the 7mag is better for taht kinda game but he thinks the 30-06 is better!!!!!!!!!!?????????? but me and a friend of mine got into an argument over this and now i wanna c what other people have to say about this situation.
P.S.S. I would get a 300wm/wby but i can't handle the recoil of that gun jsut yet.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

For what you are talking about, there would be about NO difference. The 7MM shoots a bit faster and flatter but the 30-06 has plenty of power and heavier bullets available. The 30-06 with 200 Grain Nosler Partitions will take any animal in North America. Pick either one. You can't go wrong.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Ive seen test that showed the 7 mag to have no where near the penetration the -06 did.
but does it really matter, I dunno. these tests arent on actuall animals.
The 7 mag is explosive in my opinion. great long distance medium game round. But thats only my opinion.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

place your bets, then flip a coin

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

The dead elk or moose won't ever know the difference.

A 7mm mag shooting a 160 grain accubond and a 30-06 shooting a 180 grain accubond will only have about a 4 - 6 inch difference in trajectory and would be about dead even in energy levels at 400 yards.

Both of them have bullets designed for light thin skinned game and both have bullets designed for large heavy game. Use the wrong bullet in either one of them on the wrong game animal and either one could easily be seen as being explosive.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

30-06 or 7mmRem.Mag.? Slight edge to the 7mm magnum in terms of trajectory.
Pretty much a toss up. Either one would make a good elk cartridge.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

I chose the 7mm rem mag. Fast and flat! Not much more recoil than the .30-06 so why not.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Their preformance is so close it's almost not worth the argument. [&:][&:] Good luck.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Both will work but the 7mmremmag does have a slightly flatter trajectory.


And I can show you tests that had the opposite results.It is totally dependant on bullet design.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

I know several people who owned 06's and went to the 7mm. Glad they did. I agree with everyone above, very comparable, but I give the edge to the 7mm for flatness alone. Combine that with good bullet selection and it will take down any of the bigger game at ethical distances.

7mm IMO.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

The 06 has plenty of knockdown power and can go long distances.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

they are close but the '06 is king for a reason. I hate paper tables cause they don't mean squat, however, lets look at the 175/165 gr comparisons by Mr Hornady.....OBTW, I own a 7 mag Tikka and a number of Sako '06's......

7mag..175 gr sp.....2800'/sec ( a wee bit of a stretch) 0 at 200, -7.7 at 300, -22.7 at 400.
energy.....2656/100, 2308/200, /1999/300, 1726/400....darn good.

'06.. 165gr btsp.....2900'/sec...(a wee wee stretch) 0 at 200, -7.3 at 300, -21.4 at 400.
energy.....2655 at 100, 2276 at 200, 1944 at 300, 1655 at 400.

Well, there goes the flatter theory....Gosh, they sure seem to be about even don't they? I like 'um both for elk and deer....both great cartridges. But remember...age before beauty and the 7 mag loves lots of powder!!! :DRegards, Rick.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

You're right. Not worth an argument but rather a discussion of the two carts. I shot both and would prefer a 7mm mag over a .30-06 in the field anyday. Just my opinion of course.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Those stats sure do look close. What rifle was used and what powders for the loads. Do you have that info? Was the boat tail load as accurate as the 7mm soft point?

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Those numbers look to be close but they are misleading. Being that a 7mm bore is smaller than a 30 bore you have to compare bullets of different weights but similar lengths and BC numbers.

The larger the bore the faster the same weight bullet can be driven with the same case.

If you want to do a fair comparison when useing a 175 grain bullet out of a 7mm bore then you would need to choose a 200 grain bullet for the 30-06. A much fairer comparison between the two would be a 180 grain 30 caliber bullet and a 160 grain 7mm bullet. They have similar lengths, similar BC numbers, and similar SD numbers.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Both would work fine but if I was hunting 1000+ pound moose I would rather have the 30-06.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Just exactly what I was thinking.. But close they are. I would go with the 06 because I have complete confidence in it.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

I have owned both and killed moose with both. Flip a coin. I use the 7mmrem mag because its a little flatter shooting and with good loads develops a bit more energy than an 06. The moose don't seem to know the difference.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

1000+ pound moose? I think I would step it up a bit there.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Moose are not hard to kill. Almost like shooting a hole in a truck tire, just wait for the air to come out.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

I actually find moose easier to kill than elk.They may not drop at the shot,but they seldom go far after being hit properly.They usually bed down very quickly or stand on the spot until they drop.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

As bigbulls mentioned, you did your comparison bassackwards 48thguns. Flip flop your bullets and then run the comparison. Funny thing about tables and stats... almost like the old question to your accountant joke.. what's 2+2?? He replies... "What do you want it to be!" Point is, you can twist about anything to prove a certain point, but that doesn't mean the logic behind it is correct when comparing apples for apples.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

oooooooooooooIccccc

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

both are good big game calibers, but the 06 has alot more bullet choices,especially in the heavies.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

I agree flip a coin, both are up to the task with the proper bullet employed. I personally use a 7mm rem mag and have had no problems harvesting either moose or elk.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

IMO, I don't see a need for the .30-06 when there is the 7mmmag. Some people refuse to let go of the OLD .30-06.

If you want a .30 caliber rifle round, choose either the .300 WBY, .300 Rem ultra mag or better yet, the .30-378.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Probably isn't a definite need, but why not the 30-06? cheaper bullets anyways. there isn't a need for a lot of the calibers...and newer isn't necessarily better.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Actually 7mm bullets are generally cheaper than .308" bullets.Loaded ammunition for the 30-06 is however usually lower priced than for the 7mmremmag.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Thats is what i meant, just used the wrong word, thanks.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

I appear to be in the minority but would go 06 for one simple reason"case efficiency." The 06 does have a smaller case than the 7MM but it uses the available energy more efficiently for example if you reload:

Muzzle400 Yards

Energy 3500 FT/LBS 2066
Velocity 3091FPS2375
Drop @MBBR0 12.8
Optimal Game Wt1207 LBS547

The above is from the Barnes Reloading manual for the165 Grain XLC with max 62 grains IMR 4381 load.

If you don't reload:

Muzzle 400 YDS

Energy3330FT/LBS1805
Velocity 3015 FPS2220
Drop @ MPBR 29615.1
Optimum Game WT1119 447

The above is Hornady Light Magnum ammo with 165 Grain Interbond bullets.

Despite the smaller case capacity I challenge anyone to match this performance with a handload or factory load using 7MM Remmington Mag. Keep in mind you will get this performance with less recoil due to the case efficiency andlower power charge.

PS: Matching the Section density of two different diamater bullets to get a fair comparison is not valid. The 30 caliber bullet will have far more mass and strike with far greater energy when driven at equvilent speeds. The Optimal Game Weight found in many ballisticts calculators is anbetter means of comparing two rounds terminal performance.

99 years ago someone knew what they were doing when this case was developed.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Of course that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.However many other people including myself do not share that opinion.The energy delivered to the game is far more dependent on bullet design than the caliber and weight of bullet used.A rapidly expanding bullet will impart more energy to the game than a controlled expansion bullet that exits the animal.However if the bullet expands too rapidly,the result is a lack of penetration.I choose to ignore all of the so called formulas for determining a cartridges effectiveness on game and choose insteadto base my opinions on the cartridges actual performance on game.Which do you think is more reliable for determining bullet performance,theory or actual experience?

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

I'm baaaaaaack. :(
Good to be "see" everybody again Sorry I been gone so long, been a TERRIBLY busy spring.

I gotta chime in my .01/2c on this one as useless as it may be. I have 2 30/06s (2 700s) 2 7RmMags (Abolt, 77Ruger) and have had one of each of them for nearly 20 years. On deersized game out too 400yds I honestly can't tell a difference between the two when "equivalent bullets" are used. By equivalent I mean 150s in the 7s compared to 165s in the 06s and 160s in the 7s too 180s in the 06s. (I hope I make sense with that statement, my customers seem to understand anyway.) At 400yds the 7 DOES start toopay dividendsand while 6" might not sound like much, it certainly is considerable too me (it sure does too our wives! :D) 2-3" yeah imho thats not worthy of change, but anytime you can pickup over 4" andCERTAINLY 6"I'm all ears!

As for penetration on elk/moose sized game, with these two calibers I personally would stick with a heavily constructed bullet like my beloved Barnes TSX or Winchester FailSafe in 180s for the 06 and 160s for the 7. I don't think either animal could tell you which they were hit with if you do your part and stick the bullet where they will do the most good. At such ranges for rather large creatures however I personally would recommend more fuel. Reliably killing elk at 400+ yds is NOT childsplay and either caliber is what I would call "marginal" for such use.For longrange BIGgame the300 WinMag would be my personal minimum in a 30cal and in a 7 I would rather have a RUM or even the Firebird from Lazzeroni. Since you already have ruled out the heavy stuff then take your pick between the 06 or the 7 and learn each of them front too back and realize their limits and more importantly respect the game you are pursuing. A wounded orlost trophy as magnificent as bull elk or mooseare, deserve your respect and responsible shooting!!!

Yep, folks call me "overkill" but I have yet to kill ANYTHING to dead! ;)
RA

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

So would a 7mm mag be too much at say 150-200 yrds for Elk or Deer? Would the .30-06 be better as it might not just go through the game? Is there such a thing as the 7mm mag being too 'powerful' where as a .30-06 might be a better choice?

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Stubblejumper you are adding a variable "bullet construction" which skews the comaprison. I agree with what you that the bullets construction affects terminal performance. However any comaparison between the two cailbers should be based on equal bullets ie Barnes X vs Barnes X or Partition vs Partition etc. When you relevel the playing field you will find the following.

A 30 caliber 165 Grain bullet and a 7MM 140 Grain bullet are both .248 SD. If the 30 caliber bullet strike game at 2500 FPS it will carry 2290ft/lbs and 58.9 lbs of momentum. The 7MM at 2500 FPS will carry 1943ft/lbs and 50 lbs of momentum. I am sure that everyone in this forum will agree with me that the 30 caliber bullet will cause greater damage. Therefore, my point stands that it is not valid to require a larger diameter gun to match both the sectional density and velocity of a smaller bore gun for an "equal" comarison.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

In order to do an equal comparison you must load both cartridges to their design pressures with identical bullets.If that is done the extra case capacity of the 7mm remmag will provide more muzzle velocity than the same weight bullet out of a 30-06.The smaller diameter 7mm bullet will also have a higher ballistic co-efficient so it will maintain it's velocity better as the range increases.
Ihad a quick look in the Nosler reloading guide #4 to check out some7mmremmag data.They list the maximum velocity for the 160gr bullet at 3112fps.They list the maximum velocity for the 175gr bullet at 2970fps.I compared this to their 30-06 data which lists the maximum velocity for the 165gr bullet at 3012fps.They list the maximum load for the 180gr bullet at 2872fps.When you compare the maximum energies produced by both cartridges in the nosler manual,the 7mmremmag loads lead by over 100ftlbs at the muzzle and this number increases as the distance increases.
If you want to compare only factory loads,norma lists a 170gr load for the 7mmremmag that produces 3018fps at the muzzle.
I also checked several other loading manuals by sierra,speer,lyman and hodgdons and in all cases the 7mmremmag delivered more velocity and energy than the 30-06 with similar bullet weights.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Stubblejumper - you have gotten it right on terminal performance. All the numbers games in the world don't matter once the bullets gets to the game - it either kills them or it doesn't. Generally, the reliability of that performance goes up as the bullet weight and impact velocity increases - but there are lots of other factors, like bullet construction and bullet placement as well as individual animal tenacity. When you look back 100 years on what what considered "adequate" for particular species, it is amazing how technology has allowed us to use smaller and smaller calibers for a given application.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Interesting discussion. I really don't know a whole lot about the 7mm Mag, so I don't suppose it's my place to choose oneover the other as the superior cartridge.

However, I alreadyhave a .30-06 thatcan take care of whateverI'd want it to,plus I have access to a terrific selection of commercial loads and bullets to use across the big game spectrum. There simply is no reason whatsoever to spend more money on a new rifle and more expensive cartridges. I doubt you'd ever see me trying to kill a game animal past 400 yards (or even 300, for that matter), so I'm just not interested in any perceived ballistics advantage that the 7mm offers.

If you know how to shoot, keep your rifle in good condition, and choose the proper bullet for the job, I don't see how you can fail with the .30-06.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Stubblejumper, Not to beat this dead horse anymore but I was impressed with the 7MM numbers listed in your Email. My comparisons always showed the 06 ahead. I assume this is the best 7MM Factory load you could find. I took a look at theNorma website and found the higest velocity 170 Grain 7 MM Reming Mag load to be 2952 FPS. I am assuming your conversion from meters was off. If not please correct me. Taking that best load vs the Hornady Light Mag load is revealing. The factory loads break down as follows:

Muzzle 400 YDS

FPS/EnergyFPS / Energy Drop @ 250 Zero
7MM 170GR 2952/32892048/158316.9
06 180GR 2900/33612131/1814 16.4
06 165 GR 3015/33302220/180515.1
7MM 170 GR 3018/34382101/166616.1
Thats a sweep for the 06 in factory ammo and it gets worse when you look at lbs of Momentum and optimal game weight.

I do not have Nosler data to compare the reloading numbers but those number are better than I could find in any of my books. Taking them at face value however The barnes loads offer a 165/168 Grain bullet at 3091FPS just 21FPS off the 160 Grain load3112 FPS you mentioned. Please note this 06 loadgenerates 60 LBS more at the muzzle due to the higher mass and has a BC of .505 so downrange energy and trajectory is excellent.

The 180Grainbarnes at 2965 is just 5 FPS off the 175 Grain Bullet andgenerates 3514 FT/LBS, 87 LBS more than the 7MM. The BC .552isIguessthat the trajectories of both would be almost identical.

In reality I think these two rounds performanceis 6 of one half dozen of the other. I only reccomended the 06 in my initial posting because you can get the same ballistics as demonstated above with 62 grains of powder instead of 82. The 06 is just more efficient. Why take the additional 5 pounds of recoil with nothing to show for it when the biggest factor in accuracy is the shooter.5 pounds canmake the difference betweenflinching and tolorence.Then there is cost, then there is availability, then there is factoryselection that also leans toward the 06.

I am just responding in such detail because most folks look at the powder capacity and figure a bigger case automatically means more energy and this ignores the relationship between bore size and case capacity which determines the efficiency of the case.

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

Scott I ask the following questions in all sincerity. How many 06s and 7s do you have and what kinds of game have you taken with them? Under what kinds of conditions? And at what ranges?

The "theoretical manuals" available on the web, at the library and in this months edition of "XYZ Outdoors" means nothing in the real woods and typically is contrived by writers/celebs who seldom know that a 7mag spouts the same projectile as the 284Winnie. All the "pounds theories, KE, ft#s per second" and other such jargon are fine for topics of conversation in forums such as this very one. BUT in the real world the hard evidence is told by blood on the hands, meat in the freezer and heads on the wall. Using such information/tables as the main guidelines for buying one caliber over the other is misleading and you run the potential of being let down.

I can tell you that you are a numbers man and that is fine, I am as well in many cases. BUT I think where you are missing the boat is by comparing like bullet weights among dissimilar calibers. A 175 7mag is'nt a fair comparison too a 180 06 (though again, the animals will be just as dead by either round put through their boiler rooms). When looking at the 7s vs 30s you should look at the following. 140/7s vs 150/30s, 150/7s vs 165/30s, 160/7s vs 180/30s and 175/7s vs 200</30s. You will then begin too appreciate the 7s added appetite for powder and if any, a slight more "felt recoil" than most 06s.

I have 2 of each caliber (among many others) and in 20 years of tinkering with the two calibersI can confidently say that when using the above mentioned weight comparisons, either round is as capable as the other from a game dropping standpoint assuming the bullet is placed where it belongs and when dealing with "normal ranges". It's when the distance is over 350yds on most big game when the 7 gets a "marginal" nod over the 06.Personally I find it easier to hit (consistantly in the kill zone) at 400+ yds with 7s than the great ol dame 06. And if an elk was standing 425 yds away and all I had was a head on chestshot you can bet I would MUCH rather have a 7 stoked with 160 TSXs or 175s like Trophy Bondeds or Nosler Parts than ANY pills my 06s spit out.

Just my opinion,
RA

RE: 30-06 vs 7mag
 

I did not make any conversion errors.My data was taken from the chart in the Petersons Hunting Annual in fps.I do however notice that you are comparing bullets with higher ballistic co-efficients for the 30-06 than for the 7mmremmmag which does skew the results.As for the Barnes load for the 30-06 xlc.It is listed in the manual but have you actually verified it in your rifle with a chronograph?The xlc is a coated bullet which will achieve higher velocities but then to be fair you need to compare this data for the 30-06 to data for coated bullets for the 7mmremmag.As I mentioned previously,these loads must also be reproduceable in your gun to be of any use.You are also using posted data from the hornady light magnums which I have fired over the chronograph in a few rifles.So far not one rifle has attained the advertised velocity and accuracy was dismal in some rifles so it is not an option for everyone.No standard 30-06 loading even approaches the light magnum data and most reloaders can't equal it with handloads either.As I said before,in order to provide a comparison you need to use loads using the exact same bullet design and loaded to the design pressure for each cartridge.Again thesevelocities must be verified in your rifle with a chronograph to be of any value in comparisons.Manufacturers claims and loading manualvelocities can vary considerably from rifle to rifle and mean nothing if you can't reproduce them in your rifle..