Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

This would probably fit better in the "big game" area but since we are talking about the 22-250 and deer here I'll post it here as well.


Seems we are always discussing what big game animal should be shot with what cartridge and bullet. So, I thought I would post some numbers for all to read and what animals they were designed to be used on. I'll quote energy levels at 200 yards, I figure this would be about average for a centerfire rifle. Dangerous game energy levels will be figured at 100 yards.

DANGEROUS GAME ANIMALS
416 Remington 400 grain @ 2400 fps.
5115 foot pounds at the muzzle and at 100 yards 4215 foot pounds.

Figuring a 1500 pound animal (cape buffalo) that comes out to .267 grains of bullet weight to pound of animal and 2.81 foot pounds per pound of animal.

LARGE BIG GAME (ELK AND MOOSE)
338 Win mag, 225 grain @ 2800 fps.
3060 foot pounds at 200 yards.

A 700 pound elk comes out to .321 grains of bullet per pound of animal and 4.37 foot pounds per pound of animal

A 1000 pound moose comes out to .225 grains of bullet per pound and 3.06 foot pounds per pound of animal.


DEER SIZE ANIMALS.
.270 Win, 130 grain bullet @ 3060fps.
1990 foot pounds at 200 yards

A 200 pound deer that comes out to .65 grains of bullet weight per pound of animal and 9.95 foot pounds per pound of animal.

A 22-250 firing a 60 grain bullet generates 830 foot pounds at 200 yards.
That same 200 pound deer comes out to .3 grains of bullet per pound of animal and 4.15 foot pounds per pound of animal.



Looks like the 22-250 figures are right in line with useing a 338 Winchester magnum for elk. Which many argue is the "perfect" elk cartridge.

So why is it acceptable to use less gun per pound of animal when we go after animals like the cape buffalo but when it comes to animals like deer we have to go so far overboard with the "guns" that we use.




ALL OF THIS IS ASSUMING ONE WOULD USE A PROPERLY CONSTRUCTED BULLET FOR THE "JOB" AT HAND.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

If a .270 is adequate for elk why couldnt a 22-250 be enough fora 150lb deer.
Figure that one out would you.
Hell some people here say a .243 isnt enough for deer. What a crock!

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Its not.:D Isn't the fun of shooting a deer with a rifle to see the massive damage from the exit wound?:D I mean any gun you use on deer within reason, your overgunned, its just fun and revenge for them not getting into bow range for the past 2 months. So if you going to do it, do it hard. I mean your already at a significant advantage with a gun.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

That's the first good argument I have heard for useing cartridges like 300's for deer hunting.;):D

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

haha

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

What bullet is that 22 shooting?

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Absolutely. Sometimes I have went out with a gun just to test a bullet and see how performed in a rifle.

I always say, if you are shooting anything over 100gr over 2100fps, your overgunned for deer. I guess however we are always planning for that once in a lifetime shot. You know the one you tell the story so much that you make people ill. About this big 12pt that came in, and you couldn't find it. So next day you go buy a bazooka and trade in your 243.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

I have no problem with a .223 for deer if one uses a bullet which can reach the vitals. Most bullets loaded in a .22 caliber cartridges are designed to explode. This is not ideal for hunting deer. If the bullet will reach the vitals then knock yourself out. If not then the gun is unsuitable, whether we are talking a .223, .22-.250, .243, .25 06, .270, .30 06, .300 win mag or any cannon one wants to shoot. I think we worry too much about caliber and not enough about what we are hitting them with. The thunder makes the noise but the lightning does the work. Hit the deer with something which can do the work and ya eat venison.
Dr Fatguy

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Good point, DR!

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

drfatguy makes a great point.

I do think that a person needs to be responsible and shoot game with an appropriately designed bullet regardless of caliber. Personally I will not shoot a deer with anything smaller than a 25 caliber, which yes excludes a 243, but thats me. Shoot them with whatever you like as long as it's legal.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Thats crazy popeye, deciding on a gun by the diameter of the bore. A .243 makes a .257 look like a cap gun. It is quite a bit more effective than the .257.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Heres a comapro between the two.

................................................10 0yds...........200.................300
......................................fps
.243 100gr Fed.BT........................2760.............257 0................2380
.257.117gr remcoreloc...................2291.............1961 ................1663

................................. Energy
243...........................................1690 .............1460................1260
.257..........................................1363 ..............999..................718

The .243 has almost twice the energy than the .257 at 300 yds. The .243 at 300 yds is what the 257 is at 100.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

zrexpilot,
Make that same comparison using a 25-06 or a 257 Weatherby mag instead of using 257 Bob ballistics off the Remington website. I beleive the .243 to be a fine deer cartridge and a fine varmint cartridge but let's not get silly about putting it up against a 257 caliber in energy. The 257 Bob is also a great cartridge but is certainly not the premier 257 bore.:D

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Here is the deal. We all know you love your 243 Win, but you just put your foot in your mouth so to speak. I am not trying to take anything away from the 243 Win, but your comparison to the 257 Roberts using an anemic load to stack the odds against the 257 is quite unfair. The 257 Roberts, when handloaded, can outshine the best 243 Win load you can stack up against it. Try running the numbers yourself instead of relying on one-sided data.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Well, it seems the .257 Roberts is another one of those cartridges that gets grossly underloaded by certain companies. (Remington if you couldn't guess). The same with the 7 and 8mm Mausers. Look at these two from Federal with 100 and 120 grain Partitions.

Federal .243 Winchester 100 Grain Nosler Partition

Velocity

Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500

2960 2728 2508 2299 2099 1909

Energy in Foot Pounds

Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500

1945 1653 1397 1173 978 809


Federal 257 Roberts 120 Nosler Partition

Velocity

Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500

2780 2563 2356 2158 1970 1792

Energy in Foot Pounds

Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500

2059 1750 1478 1241 1034 856

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Quite a bit better numbers there charlie brown, puts it right with the .243. So whats the difference. To claim the .243 inferior is quite rediculous, dont you think.
Now we all know about hand loading but if your gonna compare handloads you gots do it in both calibers, then the 24 will outshine it once again.
You cant dismiss the 24 to the 25. when in fact its right there or better than some.
factory loaded its better than the 250 or the bob. Handloaded it still will outshine them. put a bad load in the 25-06 and a good one in the 24 and it will outshine that one too.
Its just as good or better than a lot of deer calibers. Thats all I'm saying.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Actually handloaded, the 243 Win will not outshine the 257 Roberts, but it pretty much equals it. We can argue numbers all day depending on barrel length, pressures, etc.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

I never said that the .243 isn't a good deer cartridge, but as those two loads show, loaded to reasonable velocites, the .257 Roberts and .243 are pretty close. The deer would not know the difference!!! The two you quoted earlier were just simply not fair in regards to the Roberts. You compared the Ballistic Tip to a Corelokt Round Nose, loaded to the anemic velocites that Remington typically does.

One example of this is with the 8mm Mauser. Remington factory 170 grain Corelokt comes out at about 2270 FPS in my Yugo 24/47. With my handloads, I can push a 170 grain bullet at close to 2500 FPS so far, and I still have room to go. A 150 grain bullet can be pushed to close to 2900 FPS out of the Mauser, but you won't find any factory load loaded that hot!!

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Its right there with the -06
I'll just some it up at ..............300 yds


25-06 115 nosler partition....fps...2300
.243 100 fed bt..........................2380
.............................energy
2506.......................................1350
.243.......................................1260
.............................drop
25-06......................................6"
243.........................................6.8
not a whole lot of diffence that one could tell if shooting a deer.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Its the federal 100 gr.Boat tail that im using the ballistics off of.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

And the best part of all this is it's doing all this with a lot less powder which equalls a pleasant blast and recoil

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Right, and comparing it to a 117 grain Round Nose bullet, loaded to enemic velocities, kind of an unfair comparison.

The two I quoted from Federal are pretty equal as far as bullet construction and BC, and loaded to standard velocities for each respective cartridge.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

The 257 Roberts is loaded pretty mild from the factory because it started out life as a wildcat and many old Mausers were used to build these rifles on. With the Winchester +P brass it can be loaded to its true potential. My loads are not real hot but I load the 100 grain X bullet to about 3100 fps. I just have a 22 inch barrel on mine. The 243 loads run up to 58000 lbs pressure where the Roberts is loaded to 45000. In modern cases and modern rifles the Roberts can be loaded to simular pressures. The 250 Savage is also loaded to 44-45000 in respect for the old lever action and pump rifles in which it was chambered. I have a 250 Savage it tne 700 Classic with a 24 inch barrel. I shoot the X bullets in 100 grain at about the same speed as the Roberts or about 3100 fps. The X bullet because of its long bearing surface will fire this load with the same powder charge that only produces 2800 fps with standard bullets.

Although I don't load it near as hot as it could be loaded(because I don't need the velocity) the 25-06 can better my other 25's by 200-300 fps. I just load the 100 grain Ballistic tip to 3064 and thw 115 ballistic tip to 2940.

I Load my 243 to 2900 fpr with the 85 grain Sierra HP Game King. It could be loaded to 3200+ but I don't need that velocity with this bullet.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Who really cares which cartridge beats out another by a few fps or foot pounds. The fact of the matter is, and the purpose of the thread, we are all overgunned when it comes to hunting whitetail deer.

If we were to use the same energy per pound of animal that the 270 generates on a 200 pound deer to hunt cape buffalo we would need to use a cartridge capeable of propelling a 1000 grain bullet at about 2600 fps generating 15000 foot pounds of energy.



Or how about a 160 grain 7mm STW on a 110 pound antelope?
That's 2670 foot pounds of energy at 200 yards as loaded by Federal.
That comes out to 1.46 grains per pound and 24.27 foot pounds per pound of animal.

Take those numbers and use them on a 1500 pound animal.
That's a 2190 grain bullet at 2740 fps. generating 36,405 foot pounds at impact.
[:o][:o][:o]


Anyone care to build a rifle that will equal the on game performance of the "deer cartridges" on larger game like buffalo, elephants, rhinos, etc.?????

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Ive actually been seriously thinking about the .260 rem as maybe my next gun purchase.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

bigbulls. You are right. Thats one reason that I like the 250 Savage. I do also use the 25-06 which I suppose it over gunning as well. I used to use a 222 which is the smallest legal gun in our State. It worked just fine. I would choose my 22-250 over my 243. I am afraid that I am one of the awful sinners who uses the puny 270 for Elk.:D

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Sorry to get off subject bigbulls, lol. Didn't mean to honest:eek:. I have thought about that before concerning how much power per pound is lost when you start getting into the larger animals. The cartridges seem to get smaller per pound. Thanks for the comparison though.

And on the subject of calibers for deer, I have considered the .257 Roberts to build on my Czech VZ 24 action I have, to fit right between my .223 and .30-06:D

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Dang it! I was just contemplating buying a remchester .458 superduperultrashortmagnum for the coming deer season because all of the magazine ads show that this is the ultimate armorclad monster buck stopper out to 850 yards, but Bigbulls brought to light that I indeed really don't need that much gun to bring down a 150 lb whitetail that I will most likely shoot less than 50 yards away.[8D]

People like Bigbulls would be considered a heretic to companies like remchester or weatherby.:D

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Briman,
No, but tune in later for the lastest comparison.....
The 243 Winchester VS the 460 Weatherby Magnum. They go neck and neck but the 243 wins out overall.;)

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D 10-4! Swamp!!

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

What no comments on this comparo.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

What a CROCK!!!

oops - forgot, velocity is "everything"

You would then finally have yourself a decent deer rifle!

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

I have seen everything now. Someone actually compared a boattail to a Partition. All I can do is shake my head. Boatails are notorious for slipping cores, especially in the .243 caliber. A partion is going to penetrate, period. No questions asked, a Partition is one of the greatest bullets ever designed. It will get the job done.
I do need to know. If Zrex were facing a grizz would he rather have his .243 with a 100 grain boattail or a factory loaded .45/70 405 grain Remington. The .243 is faster and has more kinetic energy but the .45/70 will get the job done whereas the 243 won't.
Zrex,
Choose the better elk cartridge .270, .280, .30/06, .35 Whelan or a 9.3x62. All have about the same kinetic energy (that's how educated people to refer to ft/lbs). How do you choose? I would use all but the Whelan or the 9.3 would have more thump. Those large bullets moving at moderate speed get the attention of any animal.

Dr Fatguy

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

BC. What grain bullet would a guy need to equal things up for Buffalo? I quess the 22-250 and 220 Swift are plenty of gun for a 2 lb prairie dog:D. I don't think I would want to shoot the Buffalo gun.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Fat guy were talking bout deer cartridges not elk.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

I changed the subject. Answer the questions. The point is, an animal is an animal. The bullets matter. Kinetic energy is wonderful and all but not the only consideration. This is my point with the cartridges named. For deer please tell me why you would pick a boattail over a Partition? This is the mystery for me.

Dr Fatguy

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

The comparo above was just ballistics between the 25-06 and the .243. Not even talking about bullets just the ballistics. I picked the partition in the 25 cause it was the flatest shooting I was just showing the .243 is comparable to the .25. In "Kinetic energy" and bullet drop.
But now that were talking about bullets, I would choose a softer more expanding bullet because of the deer size I hunt. they rarely get to 150lbs. to me a partition would just blow throught without expanding. To be honest I like the 85gr holow points in my .243 for deer.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

That figures! [:@] Dang varmint bullets being used for deer hunting! %@/*#+!##@&$%
Let me guess, they give you more velocity than 100gr.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

they kill faster, and theyre not varmint bullets.

RE: Bullet weight and energy per pound of animal
 

Not varmint bullets??? From Federal ammo website:

243 WIN. (6.16X51MM) SIERRA GAMEKING BTHP PREMIUM VITAL*SHOK®

Federal Load No.: P243D
Caliber: 243 Win. (6.16x51mm)
Bullet Weight: 85 / 5.51 (Grains / Grams)
Bullet style: Sierra GameKing BTHP
Use: 1

1-Varmints, Predators, Small game, 2-Medium game, 3-Large, Heavy game, 4-Dangerous game, 5-Target shooting, Training, Practice

Now, you go argue with Federal! 85gr. HPBT's were meant to be used for prairie pups,
chucks, coyotes, and such. Not intended for use on deer (= #2 = medium game).