6.5 Creedmoor
08-15-2022, 10:10 AM
#1
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
6.5 Creedmoor
I understand this thread may get some attention. A couple years ago I purchased a 6.5 CM because I wanted to get into LR shooting. I haven't gotten into shooting any further than 300 yards with it which is by no means long range. I really like the rifle, a Bergara B-14 HMR, and it shoots well under MOA. I picked the CM for a couple reasons. The first was the hype. Even if I would have done some more research I likely would have gotten it anyway. The second is because I have been graced with being a left handed shooter and the CM was all I could get in a LH bolt action.
I now know that there are several 6.5s out there that will out perform the CM. Am I disappointed? Nah. I'll keep plugging along with my CM and I'm sure once I get the opportunity there ain't going to be a deer that will be able to tell the difference whether it was killed by my CM or by a PRC or Grendel.
I now know that there are several 6.5s out there that will out perform the CM. Am I disappointed? Nah. I'll keep plugging along with my CM and I'm sure once I get the opportunity there ain't going to be a deer that will be able to tell the difference whether it was killed by my CM or by a PRC or Grendel.
08-15-2022, 07:48 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,904
“Out perform” is a subjectivism. Don’t sweat it. “Faster” certainly isn’t the singular measure of “out perform.” Certainly, there are 6.5mm cartridges with bigger cases which will push a bullet faster, and there are smaller cases which won’t keep up. There are longer cases which hold bullets too far forward to fit into a short action - unless loaded with relatively light for caliber bullets… and there are older cases designed for such lighter bullets that their standard twist rates are unbecoming and unproductive for long range shooting with heavier bullets.
The 6.5 Creed is a sweet spot that simply wasn’t truly occupied by any other cartridge, but which had been replicated for generations by custom gun builders which stuck fast twist barrels in front of long action 260’s and 7-08 AI’s, 284’s and 6.5-284’s, intermediate Mausers in 6.5 Swede and 7x57… we chased the right combination of long bullet aerodynamics with limited recoil for a long time. And in the modern gun market, 1) most shooters are not hunters, and 2) many hunters enjoy long range shooting, so a 1300yard target rifle + 600 yard deer rifle rolled into one is pretty intriguing, so the timing was right. Especially coming off of the boom of the AR-15 which had many gun buyers realizing the limited potential of the 223/5.56 for long range shooting - and the same limited potential of the AR-15 platform - such the market was stoked to receive an inexpensive, ubiquitous, highly capable but highly shootable long range cartridge, made on the shelf, instead of custom ordered.
My hope, personally, is that the 6.5 creed’s success will drive more of the wonder 6’s to become standardized such the next generation of shooters can have even more options for mid-range hunting and long range shooting.
The 6.5 Creed is a sweet spot that simply wasn’t truly occupied by any other cartridge, but which had been replicated for generations by custom gun builders which stuck fast twist barrels in front of long action 260’s and 7-08 AI’s, 284’s and 6.5-284’s, intermediate Mausers in 6.5 Swede and 7x57… we chased the right combination of long bullet aerodynamics with limited recoil for a long time. And in the modern gun market, 1) most shooters are not hunters, and 2) many hunters enjoy long range shooting, so a 1300yard target rifle + 600 yard deer rifle rolled into one is pretty intriguing, so the timing was right. Especially coming off of the boom of the AR-15 which had many gun buyers realizing the limited potential of the 223/5.56 for long range shooting - and the same limited potential of the AR-15 platform - such the market was stoked to receive an inexpensive, ubiquitous, highly capable but highly shootable long range cartridge, made on the shelf, instead of custom ordered.
My hope, personally, is that the 6.5 creed’s success will drive more of the wonder 6’s to become standardized such the next generation of shooters can have even more options for mid-range hunting and long range shooting.
08-16-2022, 06:50 AM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
I still find it funny how the 260Rem never took off like the Creed did. It will do virtually the same thing and it fits in a short action. The Grendel is interesting because you can get it in a micro bolt action also. Sadly i think the CZ micro is no longer offered but you can still get a mini Howa.
Last edited by Gm54-120; 08-16-2022 at 06:53 AM.
08-16-2022, 04:01 PM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
I still find it funny how the 260Rem never took off like the Creed did. It will do virtually the same thing and it fits in a short action. The Grendel is interesting because you can get it in a micro bolt action also. Sadly i think the CZ micro is no longer offered but you can still get a mini Howa.
08-17-2022, 06:31 AM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Look at the ballistics. The 260Rem is just slightly faster than the Creed. Best thing about it is that its the same bolt head as 308, 243, 7mm-08, ect. More or less its just a 308Win necked down. Pretty simple barrel swap if so desired or needed for any Remage, Stevens or Savage 10/110 type rifles. I just find it interesting the 260Rem never saw a fraction of the popularity even when compared to 7mm-08. Came out about 10yrs before the Creed.
Like i said, it does basically the same thing but uses a far more abundant parent case. Fits in the same size action. Hunters must have gotten a lot dumber in the 10yrs to fall for all that marketing. The vast majority will never make use of the only advantage the Creed offers with the heaviest of bullets.
Like i said, it does basically the same thing but uses a far more abundant parent case. Fits in the same size action. Hunters must have gotten a lot dumber in the 10yrs to fall for all that marketing. The vast majority will never make use of the only advantage the Creed offers with the heaviest of bullets.
Last edited by Gm54-120; 08-17-2022 at 06:47 AM.
08-17-2022, 07:57 PM
#7
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Trumbull County, Ohio
Posts: 9,520
Go to Walmart and try to buy 7mm-08, .260 rem and 6.5CM and see which one you can find. Some Walmarts in PA may readily stock those. But in Ohio you'll only find one of those on the shelf.
That is the answer to allot of the questions. They marketed it well, it was readily available-from cheap to premium and everything in between- and it did it's job as advertised.
Perfect storm.
-Jake
That is the answer to allot of the questions. They marketed it well, it was readily available-from cheap to premium and everything in between- and it did it's job as advertised.
Perfect storm.
-Jake
08-18-2022, 02:32 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,649
why would a smaller capacity case be almost as fast as a larger case? loaded to the same pressure the larger capacity case haas to shoot faster! same size casehead, same bolt thrust at the same pressure!
08-18-2022, 06:17 PM
#9
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
The difference between the 260 and the 6.5 CM is really insignificant. I agree the 260 didn't get the amount of sales it deserved. I consider it a great deer sized cartridge. But like Jake said you can buy 6.5CM ammo almost everywhere but not so with the 260 Rem.
All due to good marketing something Remington was never very good at.They did the same thing years ago with the 6mm/244 Rem up against the .243.
All due to good marketing something Remington was never very good at.They did the same thing years ago with the 6mm/244 Rem up against the .243.
Last edited by bronko22000; 08-18-2022 at 06:19 PM.
08-19-2022, 06:41 AM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,904
This perception is really the crux of the matter.
No cartridge “deserves” any marketshare or sales volume at all. Full stop. No gazelle deserves to live through a day, and no lion deserves to eat.
The firearms consumer market is a capitalist economy, and rarely does “most popular” or “highest selling” ever correspond to “fastest” as an objective measure of ballistic performance - let alone correspond to “older.” “Hype” is a buzzword which folks like to throw around, but rarely has marketing “hype” without corresponding performance really delivered in market - some folks buy shiny things before the collective has realized it’s just a skin of tinfoil, but in the modern age of digital marketing and social media, there’s no hiding - if a product doesn’t deliver, it’s called to the mat and debunked within weeks, or even days. But popularity isn’t just about objective performance - remember, the 30-30 and the 6.5 swede were invented within a year of one another, with the 6.5 swede clearly - objectively - a ridiculously higher performing cartridge, but the Dirty Thirty would own greater marketshare forever thereafter, for no particular objective reason, simply subjective consumer preference - even with the original advertising extolling the flat trajectory of the 30-30 as a unique advantage to the round and rifle!
The 260rem dropped in the late ‘90s after having been wildcatted for around 40 years already at that point - this was early, EARLY in the days of the internet, and before the advent of “social media” as a marketing device, pre-YouTube, pre-Facebook, pre-Instagram. It hit the market because a few wildcatters were enjoying low recoil and flat hunting-distance trajectories, and Remington thought it would be a good idea to pick it up - using relatively slow twists and relatively light bullets. There wasn’t an obvious consumer demand for the round, nor a clearly defined consumer market application target. But Remington swallowed the cost to enable future shooters an option they didn’t previously have.
This was a few years before the “long range hunting revolution” which rode on the backs of the Remington Ultra Magnums, and equally before the Winchester Short Magnums and RSAUMs, but largely came about during the peak of a generational disorder of “magnumitis,” such almost shooters wanting to shoot long we’re looking at magnum cases, not simply an interstice between two calibers in the diminutive 308 case. “Long range shooting” at the time was generally perceived to be a magnum dominated game, in part due to the relatively recent establishment of the 50 BMG and the 338 Lapua as shoulder fired RIFLES in military application. He11, I even recall a conversation in 1998 when an avid and experienced local rifleman told me I should be building a 7 Rem Mag instead of a 284 Winchester for benchrest competition, because even standard long action cartridges wouldn’t reach 1000yrds, let alone a short action cartridge… read that again - would not REACH 1000yrds.
This was before the popularity of heavy barrels, before the popularity of picatinny rails, before First Focal Plane optics. This was before accutriggers and barrel nuts were industry standard. Before drop-in headspacing for bolt actions for shouldered pre-fits was a thing. This was a time when “shooting sports” largely meant shotgun games and slow paced square-range rifle sports like Highpower and benchrest. Even 3 gun really hadn’t yet hit the scene, let alone action precision rifle games - “police/tactical matches” were onesie-twosie around the country, with most not allowing civilian competitors, and those which DID were so uncommon that they were dubbed “outlaw matches.” Obviously long before the inception of the Precision Rifle Series.
This was before the “predator hunting craze” which saw a boom of heavy barreled short action cartridges in flatter shooting rounds.
This was before laser rangefinders and ballistic calculators were commonly available, let alone in consumer hands.
This was also before “prepping” had driven the boom of reloading equipment prevalence among the common shooter, and during a time when the average firearm transfer was NOT being bought by a first time gun owner (someone buying ANOTHER gun, not their first gun). Previously, if you reloaded, you were an avid shooter and likely a competitor, not just a guy with a rifle - but prepping drove presses into homes all over America which wouldn’t have bought one before, making less mainstream cartridges even more available to the casual shooter.
This was before e-commerce was the dominating market. We were still ordering things via mail order catalogs or phone calls, and if a rifle and corresponding ammo wasn’t available at a local shop, or Walmart - or K-mart!! - guys weren’t buying it.
This was also firmly in the height of the Federal AWB, before the AR-15 had blossomed, let alone large frame AR’s, to have the market prevalence they enjoy today - back then, an AR was a 15, and it was a 223/5.56, and a rare large frame was a 308, with only the rarest of any of these being offered in any other cartridge - even custom barrels were often truly one-off custom orders when building 243win or 7-08 large frame AR’s.
This was at a time when consumer standardization was king - Kmarts were converting to “Big K’s,” Walmart was building Supercenters, and if a person didn’t have Air Jordans, a Nokia 3210, a Black AmEx, and a stack of boy band CD’s as tall as their ceiling, they weren’t “in.” This was before Etsy, before the “boutique boom,” before “unique is the new black.” So this was a time when buying anything abnormal was… abnormal…
But thereafter 1999, we DID see all of these market trends.
So in 1999 when it was finally SAAMI standardized, after 2-3yrs of processing - the 260rem was released without a purpose into a market which didn’t want it. A decade later, when winds were more favorable for a fast twist 6.5mm short action cartridge to be used for true long range shooting, the 260rem was sitting on the shelf with a bunch of 1:9” twists and 120 grain ammo, and cases too long to fit long 140-150 grain bullets into the case without shoving their bases too deep into the case…
Shooters asked for a cartridge like the 6.5 Creedmoor to fill the niche of precision rifle competition, and when they got it, it was perfectly positioned to swallow up marketshare like a whirlpool.
The 260rem didn’t deserve anything when it came out, and doesn’t today - nor does any other cartridge. It simply didn’t EARN the marketshare in any era which was earned by the 6.5 creed.
No cartridge “deserves” any marketshare or sales volume at all. Full stop. No gazelle deserves to live through a day, and no lion deserves to eat.
The firearms consumer market is a capitalist economy, and rarely does “most popular” or “highest selling” ever correspond to “fastest” as an objective measure of ballistic performance - let alone correspond to “older.” “Hype” is a buzzword which folks like to throw around, but rarely has marketing “hype” without corresponding performance really delivered in market - some folks buy shiny things before the collective has realized it’s just a skin of tinfoil, but in the modern age of digital marketing and social media, there’s no hiding - if a product doesn’t deliver, it’s called to the mat and debunked within weeks, or even days. But popularity isn’t just about objective performance - remember, the 30-30 and the 6.5 swede were invented within a year of one another, with the 6.5 swede clearly - objectively - a ridiculously higher performing cartridge, but the Dirty Thirty would own greater marketshare forever thereafter, for no particular objective reason, simply subjective consumer preference - even with the original advertising extolling the flat trajectory of the 30-30 as a unique advantage to the round and rifle!
The 260rem dropped in the late ‘90s after having been wildcatted for around 40 years already at that point - this was early, EARLY in the days of the internet, and before the advent of “social media” as a marketing device, pre-YouTube, pre-Facebook, pre-Instagram. It hit the market because a few wildcatters were enjoying low recoil and flat hunting-distance trajectories, and Remington thought it would be a good idea to pick it up - using relatively slow twists and relatively light bullets. There wasn’t an obvious consumer demand for the round, nor a clearly defined consumer market application target. But Remington swallowed the cost to enable future shooters an option they didn’t previously have.
This was a few years before the “long range hunting revolution” which rode on the backs of the Remington Ultra Magnums, and equally before the Winchester Short Magnums and RSAUMs, but largely came about during the peak of a generational disorder of “magnumitis,” such almost shooters wanting to shoot long we’re looking at magnum cases, not simply an interstice between two calibers in the diminutive 308 case. “Long range shooting” at the time was generally perceived to be a magnum dominated game, in part due to the relatively recent establishment of the 50 BMG and the 338 Lapua as shoulder fired RIFLES in military application. He11, I even recall a conversation in 1998 when an avid and experienced local rifleman told me I should be building a 7 Rem Mag instead of a 284 Winchester for benchrest competition, because even standard long action cartridges wouldn’t reach 1000yrds, let alone a short action cartridge… read that again - would not REACH 1000yrds.
This was before the popularity of heavy barrels, before the popularity of picatinny rails, before First Focal Plane optics. This was before accutriggers and barrel nuts were industry standard. Before drop-in headspacing for bolt actions for shouldered pre-fits was a thing. This was a time when “shooting sports” largely meant shotgun games and slow paced square-range rifle sports like Highpower and benchrest. Even 3 gun really hadn’t yet hit the scene, let alone action precision rifle games - “police/tactical matches” were onesie-twosie around the country, with most not allowing civilian competitors, and those which DID were so uncommon that they were dubbed “outlaw matches.” Obviously long before the inception of the Precision Rifle Series.
This was before the “predator hunting craze” which saw a boom of heavy barreled short action cartridges in flatter shooting rounds.
This was before laser rangefinders and ballistic calculators were commonly available, let alone in consumer hands.
This was also before “prepping” had driven the boom of reloading equipment prevalence among the common shooter, and during a time when the average firearm transfer was NOT being bought by a first time gun owner (someone buying ANOTHER gun, not their first gun). Previously, if you reloaded, you were an avid shooter and likely a competitor, not just a guy with a rifle - but prepping drove presses into homes all over America which wouldn’t have bought one before, making less mainstream cartridges even more available to the casual shooter.
This was before e-commerce was the dominating market. We were still ordering things via mail order catalogs or phone calls, and if a rifle and corresponding ammo wasn’t available at a local shop, or Walmart - or K-mart!! - guys weren’t buying it.
This was also firmly in the height of the Federal AWB, before the AR-15 had blossomed, let alone large frame AR’s, to have the market prevalence they enjoy today - back then, an AR was a 15, and it was a 223/5.56, and a rare large frame was a 308, with only the rarest of any of these being offered in any other cartridge - even custom barrels were often truly one-off custom orders when building 243win or 7-08 large frame AR’s.
This was at a time when consumer standardization was king - Kmarts were converting to “Big K’s,” Walmart was building Supercenters, and if a person didn’t have Air Jordans, a Nokia 3210, a Black AmEx, and a stack of boy band CD’s as tall as their ceiling, they weren’t “in.” This was before Etsy, before the “boutique boom,” before “unique is the new black.” So this was a time when buying anything abnormal was… abnormal…
But thereafter 1999, we DID see all of these market trends.
So in 1999 when it was finally SAAMI standardized, after 2-3yrs of processing - the 260rem was released without a purpose into a market which didn’t want it. A decade later, when winds were more favorable for a fast twist 6.5mm short action cartridge to be used for true long range shooting, the 260rem was sitting on the shelf with a bunch of 1:9” twists and 120 grain ammo, and cases too long to fit long 140-150 grain bullets into the case without shoving their bases too deep into the case…
Shooters asked for a cartridge like the 6.5 Creedmoor to fill the niche of precision rifle competition, and when they got it, it was perfectly positioned to swallow up marketshare like a whirlpool.
The 260rem didn’t deserve anything when it came out, and doesn’t today - nor does any other cartridge. It simply didn’t EARN the marketshare in any era which was earned by the 6.5 creed.