...A load of BS coming from a guy that shoots a big gun too, a lot more accurately than you.



.45-70 "big gun" fired 253yrds supported on a fence post. Double lung and heart, a lot better than pie pan accuracy, at a lot farther than 100yrds. In the "forest" no less, or at least as close as it gets to forest here in Flatlandia.

But then again, I'm not the one that took the ruler to the bathroom.

As far as "most accurate rifle" goes, the most accurate rifles aren't bought off of any shelf, they're built. That said, what you're describing, 2-3MOA groups aren't acceptable, especially considering how well so many of today's factory rifles do shoot, even with factory loads. I wouldn't expect that a factory rifle SHOULD shoot better than 1.5MOA, although many do, some much better. 2-3MOA is pretty rough though.

How did you do your load development for these rifles? What bullet weight and twist are you shooting?

a not too big of a gun, 348 win. bear was shot at 8 steps fighting dogs on the ground, coyote was shot running at about 20 yards
that rifle is sighted in 1.5" high at 100 yards
bigger gun, 458 socom AR-15 sighted in 2.5" high at 100 puts it about 4" low at 200, bear was shot at 40 feet.

I have the ability to shoot game as far as I want, but I don't have too, I do it to challenge my own abilities. my most accurate gun is a full house custom 6.5, it is amazing 3 shots at a lazered 752 yards with a 2 mph crosswind

50 cal muzzloader, sighted in 2" high at 100 yards produced a bang/flop on this whitetail at 208, offhand put the second stadia wire of a burris BP high on the shoulder

your rifle will serve you much better and you'll develop more confidance if you take he time to properly sight it in. Don't worry so much about the cost of the ammo, shoot as much as you can, if its too expensive....reload, the best woodsman in the world if he won't burn ammo is a vegetarian.
RR

I think someone is pulling everyones' leg (or is the correct term "stirring the pot"?), with the funny "practice is a waste of time" theory.

Some other good choices might have included:
- .22 LR is perfect for big bears
- skunks are good to eat
- head shots on running elk at 700 yards are easy
- Don't worry about TSA rules. Take anything you want onto an airplane.
- It is always wise to insult the waiter and cook when ordering food

He is surely getting a rise out of the comment. It must be that Oakland, Maryland sense of humor!

I know I posted a few threads back about my Savage .308 rifle and how accurate it is. I finally found an old photo on a thumb drive that I saved from a few years ago.

This is the result from my (older model - 1997) Savage model 10 chambered in .308 with a Bushnell 3-9x40 scope at 100 yards at the local rifle range. Hell, I don't think I even shouldered the rifle... I had it secure in a cheap Caldwell plastic rifle bench rest, and simply reached up and pulled the trigger each time I re-centered the crosshairs back on the bullseye. If I had really held the rifle better, or strapped it in or something, all those bullet holes would have touched.



Also, after a while I bumped up the scope's elevation turret 4 clicks, so the Savage .308 is 1" high at 100 yards (i.e. +/- 150 yards dead on), and that's good enough for me. I stupidly forgot to save the next target showing it 1" high at 100 yards, but take my word for it.

Guess you don't understand going to the range then. I roll my own ammo, I don't pay those insane ammo prices either. You go to the range to practice, not to constantly tinker with optics. If you are constantly adjusting your scopes, there is a problem. I haven't adjusted mine for several years now, and that was a couple of clicks when I did. I go there to practice, not socialize with the others. Kind of hard to talk if the gun is going off isn't it? Why practice? Probably because game animals, whether its deer, elk, or cape buffalo, deserve the respect of a clean kill. I have witnessed too many hunters who go out the two weeks before season(most of us have seen the type) and put a few rounds thru the gun and say "good nuff". That season they miss or wound several deer and say they need a better gun. Minute of pie plate may be good enough for you, but your odds are a lot better for a bad shot than me. It is a shame to see archery hunters thumbing their nose at gun hunters like you do(your comments lead to that presumption). We all are hunters, but yet because you chose to buy over-priced equipment that's "primitive" and gives you this huge disadvantage, bowhunting is some how better. Bet you would look at different without the swanky compound bow and sights, and carbon arrows with mechanical broadheads. Recurve, wood shafts, and a stone head. That is real archery hunting.

I'm actually hoping you're right Uncle. Experience with certain hunters with his mindset over the years has left me jaded.

But then again, if a sheep wears wolf's clothing, then gets shot because I thought it was a wolf in my flock, I wouldn't feel bad for them, nor feel bad about wasting the bullet.

Guys the OP here, some quick thoughts, Nomercy448, nice buck, wish I had one that big. Went to the range on Wed, cold as heck. Vanguard, shooting factory Hornady168g match,2.75@100yards. Factory Federal fusion150g, 1.5@ 100yards.Reloads- CFE223 with 150g Hornady interlocks, first 3 shots, .75 fourth shot brought group out to 1.25@100, pleasantly surprised with this powder,will expermint more with this. 165g Game kings with Win760 first 3 shots .75 fourth shot brought out group to 1.5@100. My reloads shot better than the factory. So I think I can get this gun to shoot, on this day I did shoot two nice 3 shot groups. With the Ruger I did get a 1inch 4 shoot group with 165g game kings with IMR3031. I will fine tune these loads until I can get the accuracy I want, not quite there yet but getting closer. Also just to get this I have shot many bullet,powder combos. I love to shoot, just wish I could get to the range more often. Thx for all the replies.

saur, the 3 in and 2 out points to seating depth, check your throat length, establish a max COL and seat .006-,010 under that, see how it does.
RR

ive never missed a deer, never wounded one either, i give animals the respect of a good clean kill every time i take one. i carry one bullet with me when i go into the woods and i make it count.
the simple fact is i cant see more than a hundred yards anywhere on the property i hunt. my average deer kill is 30-50 yards.
if i felt a deer was further than what i KNOW i can accurately hit im not pulling the trigger.
so as for me being an unethical hunter no im not. im also a bowhunhter who lets about 50 bucks walk every year, so just so you know killing deer is not the only reason im in the woods.
great deer everyone sorry for being a !@#hole on that one, all im saying is i shoot nice deer too and i do it accurately. i just don't think you understand the terrain i hunt.
any my rifle hunting basically mimics my bowhunting, i set up in the same spots so the trails i know the deer will be on are all within 50 yards, its not like i pull the trigger on deer that are far away.
hitting a nine inch pie plate every single time you shoot your gun from 100 yards means that you can 100% for certain shoot a still standing deer at or within 100 yards.
its not like i hunt a field edge where deer might walk by at 300 yards.
and once again ive never made anything other than heart and lung shots. which are ethical kills.
we all hunt different, because i enjoy a close encounter (even just watching the first does of a morning stroll by 15 yards away) i setup closer to their trails.
i wish i had land with corn fields, or open areas but i dont. its dense forest and i hunt it that way. im not ever going to shoot a deer from more than a hundred yards.
if i ever missed a deer there would be a problem but i havent so if it aint broke dont fix it.
so for everyone just because i dont sight my rifle in for three hundred yards doesnt mean its not sighted in well enough, it means its sighted in for the distance i hunt from.
if i ever missed my 100 yard 9 inch pie plate then there would be a problem but ive never missed it either. i would never win a competition, but i would never take an unethical shot at a deer. like i say, i cant see deer from over 100 yards and have a clear shot on my land. you have to be close to them to get them here. i use the 45 for knockdown.
ive shot six bucks with this gun i must be doing something right.

This...

And/or might depend on how quickly you're firing your groups (didn't mention that...)

And/or... since you noticed your first 3 were 3/4", then threw the 4th or 5th shots, you might be shooting at your bullet holes, rather than shooting at the same POA. I only mention that since you did mention the group size of the first shots compared to the last shots. I make it a habit to never look at my POI when firing for groups until I'm done, that way I can keep myself disciplined to aim for the same POA without distraction. It's just human nature to let yourself subconsciously shoot towards your other bullet holes - kinda like your back of your mind thinks "the rest of those shots hit over there, I should aim over there..."

But yeah, I'd be grabbing a match or magic marker and checking my bullet jump.

saur, the 3 in and 2 out points to seating depth, check your throat length, establish a max COL and seat .006-,010 under that, see how it does.
RR
RR I called Hornady about seating depth and they said to seat the bullet no closer than .020 thousands off the lands because of pressure, can I go closer without excessive pressure? So far I have used a dial caliper to measure the coal and all were within .05 of an inch of each other. I do have a comparter(spelling) and have used it but usually I fist try to get a decent load worked up and then fine tune it. How critical is seating depth anyway? I have been able to get good results with other rifles but just going with the longest coal the book says with a dial caliper.

yes you can, but drop your charge and work back up, some rifles like jump, some don't, I'd set it .010 off the lands and try a 5 shot group, if your at 20, and .010 doesn't help, try .030 off, my 6.5 gibbs shoots best at .030 off, my 7mm Allen magnum likes them jammed .006.
your velocity may be a tad lower closer to the lands at the same pressure but it may be what your rifle prefers. hope this helps.
RR

Scary aint it,glad I hunt private property!

bandwagon much? Read the whole thread.
I hunt only 300 acres of private and it's THICK
ALL shot opportunities are inside if 90 yards
Which dictates why I only sight in to 100
the reason I pull my rifle out the week before season is because rifle hunting is stupid simple, any 10 year old can do it.
Some of us already know where the buck will be and set up 50 yards from where he's gonna walk.
Not all of us are looking for deer some already know the exact trail they will be on and when.

Logan,

You sure make it sound pretty easy !!! LOL


:rock:

If I ever go out pronhorn hunting I might sight for 300 and buy some shooting sticks or use a rest or something but these are whitetails. And if you know their patterns it's easy to get in close.
And since our bow season comes in sept 7 I have two months to watch and learn those patterns and when rifle season comes in I know the exact trails specific deer use. Most times I am hunting a specific buck in rifle.

Isn't it?
I spend two months hunting deer before rifle comes In idk I just know where they are. of course I don't always get the exact deer I want but I fill my tags and eat steak all year lol which is what it's all about.

To the OP's original question, here's my limited experience:

Weatherby Vanguard S2 Varmint Special in .22-250, shoots under an inch 5 shot groups at 300 yards with hand loaded 55 grain SGK HPBT, closer to 1.5" 5 shot groups with 40 grain Nosler Varmageddon FPHP

Weatherby Vanguard S2 Synthetic in .308, doesn't shoot the 150 grains Nosler Accubonds all that well, something like 8" groups at 400 yards. Going to try 165 grain Nosler Accubonds this afternoon

My brother and I had identical Browning A Bolt II Synthetic rifles in .270. I got his to shoot under an inch with handloads at 100 yards, couldn't get mine to shoot under 3". I think there's a headspace issue with that rifle, probably need to send it back.

My dad's Remington 700 SPS in .223 shoots 1.20" 5 shoot groups at 300 with hand loaded 55 gr SGK SPBTs.

Just more data points for you

The most accurate rifle I have is a Sako L691 (circa 1994) in 300 WBY. On a bad day I'll shoot a 3/4" group (3 shots) at 100 yards. On a good day, those groups will shrink significantly.

With that said, my son and I have Marlin 336s (circa 1971) that I can get a little over 1/2" groups with at 100 yards (3 shot) with Hornady Leverevolution ammo.

This is the OP, I will not give up, I wish I could get groups like some here. What irks me was I had a gunsmith bed the stock, lap the barrel and do make sure the crown is correct on the Vanguard and I still can't get a decent 4-5 shot group. I can get decent 3 shot group one time and the next time out with the EXACT reloads it will not preform like it did the first time. It seems I always get a flyer after the 2nd or 3rd shot. I am shooting in MN in Feb/March and I let the barrel cool down between shots(doesn't take long in this weather) Going to try some new reloads next week and if that does not help rifle is going back to the smith.

One question;

Are you starting your "string" with a clean barrel ?

"Flyers" hmmmm. This picture is a perfect example of a good group gone bad. Using a friends 6BR I shot this four shot group at 100 yards. I shot four times because the one off to the right was the first shot. That was all me. And most times I think most flyers are due to human error most times. I continued to shoot the rifle and the remaining three shots are in a group of .307 outside diameter that you have to subtract .244 out of the equation to get a group size of .063. Man would that have been some bragging rights for me personally. But alas the "flyer".

Yours could be some more stock issues. Could be some bullet runout. Could be loading issues. Could be some human error. I'd shoot some groups at further ranges and you'll maximize your problems and this could help narrow it down. But in real time you should be able to shoot multiple groups in session without much change in impact. If that was not true then the 1000 yard bench rest shooters would be in trouble. They run 10 shots in a quicker manner to keep most of the elements the same during that one group setting.

Lol I'll chime in...

8 years in the USMC and have my 12 award expert was series high shooter at Paris island 1984... Was range high shooter prob 6 out of those 12 trips to the range with a high score of 246... Was invited to try out for the intramural shooting team... I buy a gun and if it doe sent shoot 1moa or really close I get ride of it I have 2 rifle that I will never part with... Browning A Bolt 7mm Mag shoots sub MOA with win pp ammo next is my Rem CDL 7mm-08 pretty much will keep every thing I shoot threw it right at 1" or better if I do my part...

And as far as off hand nothing but possibles ever string of fire... If some one wanted to mess with somebody in the butts they would put there cover on the back of my target and get 10 hole in it... Little smaller than a paper plate and a little farther than 100 yards

With advances in technology, manufacturing and metallurgy any rifle you buy is MOA accurate out of the box, ....unfortunately the shooter isn't.

Missed this thread until this AM. I see one member has posted a crock of baloney under two different usernames and all I can say is it's a sad day when a person thinks hitting a pie plate at one hundred yards is good enough and goes to the range once a year whether he needs to or not, and yet calls himself a hunter! What a crock and sad, very very sad!!!

Do u really have no life?
I find it odd that you spend all year at the range and maybe a week hunting out of every year and call yourself a hunter.
Like I said before y'all must not have ever been to west md
It's not farm land where you can see for miles.
It old growth oak, now try to get this through your thick f'n head it is ALL old growth oak. No need to sight in further than Your bullet can travel. But you're probably a flat lander... And wouldn't understand.

Clearly you have never had any training in logical thinking

***LOL! FYI I was on the road for 3 months out west in four different states (NV, OR, NM, and WY) last year for bighorn sheep, elk, mule deer, antelope and then a week hunting pheasants over my pointer in ND before coming back here to MI to hunt whitetails in areas as thick or thicker than where you're talking about, so take your smarts on practicing somewhere else booby and keep right on with your "pieplate patterns!!!

Back to the gun thing, I think ammo makes a huge difference. I picked up a .243 99 Savage a few years back but did not want to reload for it. I bought a box each of the "Big three" and headed to the range. The Winchester and Federal I could not get better than 6" at 100 yards. The Winchester and Federal also extracted kind of "Stickey", a sign of a hot load. The Remington was right in there and extracted smooth as could be. Lots of things affect shooting. I usually take along a rifle that I know is dead nut when I go to the range. That way I can check if I am having a bad day or it may be the rifle.

***I hope you're talking about a used rifle because the comments you made about 6" accuracy and sticky extraction sure doesn't sound like anything that would happen with a new rifle, especially a Savage .243 using factory ammo.

Whatever flat lander
All I ever said was practice practically

You should keep your mouth shut and not bring a 3 month old thread up that had stupid written all over every post you made like this one for example, LOL! Now more people can read your posts to see that you don't know squat!!! Your "flatlander" comment was about as stupid as your comments on practicing "practical" and only going to the range once a year to make sure you can keep those pieplate patterns going, LOL! :bash: :lolabove:

Get em!
 

Your right top, Tell it like it is.:biggrin:

Yep, he even changed usernames but still kept right on posting his baloney. I guess that proves the old saying that you can't fix stupid no matter what name you use, LOL! :hit:

LoL I see not much has changed on here since I was gone.

Yep. Still a bunch of pious chest thumpers telling everyone how great they are. I get tired of looking at the same stupid pics every time they want to prove how great of a hunter they are.

That-a-way to get us back on the right track guys !

So which rifle is the most accurate - I know, YOURS huh ?!?!

This is true!! A lot of internet blowhards have infested this site!

I cant say a specific brand for sure, but a good 35 Wheelen is VERRRY accurate. Also the .308 is hard to beat. Both are great guns.

This place used to be popping about 7-10 years ago. Now days I check some of these threads every 3-4 months. Used to have a decent chat room too.

The most accurate rifle is the one that suits your needs and budget. If it's a Mossberg ATR or a full blown custom it doesn't matter.

The most accurate rifle
 

comes down to a hooters eyesight, calmness at shooting, holding ability and shooting finger.
Not every hunter has the greatest eyesight or is a born shooter. Some are accurate enough to take a number of game, while not a born sniper. And many a successful hunter doesn't use the most accurate rifle. For some the use of the most accurate rifle is beyond their ability. Successful hunting for many doesn't come down to the best of the best.
A sharpshooter once took out a deer's spinal cord in its neck. A lot of shooters wouldn't even know where to aim.