thegrizz

First I want to say I own a Savage ML10.I hope this does not happen to me or any one else.I have a lot of money tide up in this weapon.From a custom rifle stock that I made my self to optics.It look great.But a WARNING to all that own a ML10.I'm not trying to tell any one about another web site.But the information or warning about this gun needs to be heard before another person gets hurt.Go to hpmuzzeleloading.com.Read and LOOK at what might happen to you if you use the factory suggested loads.I don't use hotter loads or experimental loads..just factory suggested.The space that is not threaded on the breech plug causes gases to kick back.
You are holding a pipe bomb..The man that wrote the first reticle has testing back ground on Muzzle Loading than any other person I know.More than 100,000 rounds out of guns.This number is not a type O.From working with Knight for years to market testing many other muzzle loading weapons.Please just read the reticle that could save your Head and Life.It's real It's happening..and Savage IS NOT doing anything about it.It's happen 4 times and 4 times is to many.

falcon

Yep, another Toby Bridges thing. Bridges worked for Savage for many years and he touted that gun as the best ever made. Then he and Savage had a falling out and Savage fired him.Bridges also got into a urinating contest withBall, who invented the Savage gun. Shortly after Bridges was fired he had a run in with the law.

Strange thing; the first Savage gun blew up soon after Bridges was fired by Savage.The gun picturedwas most likely destroyed by an overload with the bullet setting well off the powder.

http://hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html

A big piece of the barrel was blown off at the threads. Note how that piece was bent backwards before breaking. Look at the otherpieces of the barrel and how they are cracked well forward of the breech.


http://www.gunblast.com/Muzzleloading.htm

DeerandbearhoG

I did not read the article or site you are referring to but I own a 10ML and have at least 300 shots through it (which alot for gun you load once every 10 minutes)using 40- 43 grains of 4759 and a 250-300gr sst or xtp and never had, seen or heard of a "blow up" till now. The reciever and breech plug stays cleaner than any other gun Ive ever owned ,so I dont uderstand the excessive blow back claims either, the vent hole is tiny and the breech is completely sealed when the bolt is closed. I know becausew Ive literally had water pouring out of the breech area several times during rainy hunts and never a hang or misfire. I would imagine any rifle loaded too hot could be a potential pipe bomb but when I look a the beefy reciever and barrel I feel pretty safe pulling the trigger. In fact, the only thing I hate about my 10ml is it weight[:@]

thegrizz

Mr Falcon..Or who ever wrote your Quote you posted..So you are saying 4 rifle's from 4 diffrent people blow their guns up Intentionally? I hope no one get's killed over this design.

falcon

You make your very first post ofa blown up Savage muzzleloders on a forum other than the blackpowder forum. Why?This is a fine wayto do as much damage as possible to the reputation of Savage.

For over 45 years i have been involvedwith high explosives and propellants. Have built a lot of pipe bombs for research and instruction. Intentionally, or otherwise, someone turned the pictured Savage muzzleloaderinto a pipe bomb using a heavy charge offast burning powder or a drastic over-load of a recommended powder.

i can tell by the blue coloration inside the barrel that the powder column was about 2.25-2.5 inches long.No recommeded load of smokless powder for a Savage muzzleloader is that long.

thegrizz

According to this forum for "Firearm Review Forum"..this is for Rifles,Shot Guns,"Black Powder",Pistols,ect. Now even though this was my first post..It seems A "Reputation" of a company as "you stated" is more important than "safety to the people" that purchase a product. I purchased the product.It seems YOU have a problem with Mr. bridges.Not me.For the 4 people that have had these rifles, and now for my self trying to take measures so this does not happen to me at "my expense" "Before it happens".This still does not explane why 4 diffrent people with 4 diffrent guns..who don't even know each other have this happen using recommended loads have thier rifles blow up.I like the idea of using smokeless powder in a muzzel loader.That is why I purchased this product with my money.But if thier is a wrong design that is causing this problem..then fix it.Most important is SAFETY..Not Reputation..make the best product in the world and be proud of it.."Safety of a product first" Mr Falcon..not reputation.One last thing Mr. Falcon..When I purchased this weapon a few years ago I was proud of it and still em.I made a custom rifle stock for it with a thumb hole in the stock.I had a smith even jewel the Bolt.I put expensive optics on it..So That is why I don't want any damage to happen to it..a lot of time and personal work I put in to my guns..and a lot of money.I have now two gun smiths reviewing the design at my cost.If I have to go to a custom barrel and if it can be done..then so it be..I don't need this to happen to me.So that is why I put it in this Section Mr Falcon.

driftrider

thegrizz,

If you own a 10ML-II like you say you do, and are so comvinced that it is unsafe by the opinion of one guy who's credibility is highly questionable, then certainly you should never shoot your rifle again. In fact, since it's unsafe, and therefore basically worthless, I'd be happy to pay for the shipping so that you can send your rifle to me so you can have the piece of mind of not having such a terribly unsafe weapon in your safe.

Unfortunately this whole vendetta between Bridges and Savage has been rekindled. The Bridges incident happened almost 5 years ago. Like Falcon said, he had a falling out with both Savage and the Balls over money, and Savage had also warned him repeatedly not to experiment with powders other than those tested by Savage in their ballistics lab (which he did), not to grossly exceed the recommended charge weights (which he did), and to never use duplex and triplex loads (which can be EXTREMELY unpredictable and dangerous, but he did anyway). Bridges got fired by Savage for insubordination, and his contract with Henry Ball ended because of breach of contract and attempted blackmail by Bridges. Bill Ball even posted an email from Bridges where Bridges threatened him and Henry with just such an incident.

Also, it's not noted by Bridges that the rifle went back to Savage who thoroughly examined it and found the cause to be a bore obstruction, likely from a double charge. If you examine the photos the Bridges posted of his gun, it's readily apparent that the greatest expansion of the barrel was several inches ahead of the breechplug. If you've ever seen a barrel bulged or split because of an obstruction, it's always right behind where the obstruction was. Bridges blames the breechplug design, but the failure clearly happened well forward of the breechplug, and even in his pictures the breechplug is still in place and intact. It should also be noted that Toby Bridges has absolutely NO education or background in engineering, physics, internal ballistics, metallurgy or any other technical field that would qualify him to scientifically evaluate the cause of the failure, assuming he's telling the truth about it being a Savage recommended charge that blew the gun. Toby Bridges is nothing more than a gun writer. He may have plenty of experience shooting guns, and is qualified to write articles about them, but he's no engineer or scientist. Guess who works for Savage? Engineers and scientists. My opinion is that Toby Bridges is a liar and a blackmailer who's hell-bent on destroying the reputation of Savage and the 10ML-II because they would let him and his ego dictate their business, and because he was experimenting with dangerous loads without the benefit of a ballistics lab and pressure test equipment, and they didn't want to be associated with him if he did manage to blow up a gun with his foolishness.

Bridges claims that 4 10ML's have been blown up, but I've seen no evidence of the other three. And even if they do exist, what makes anyone think that they were not caused by bore obstructions, improper loading or excessive/experimental charges? Also, have you ever considered that there are 10's of thousands of 10ML-II's out there right now that have never had any problems? All guns can be blown up. Sometimes it's a result of poor materials and quality control (i.e. the rash of blown up Sako Finnlights a few years ago because the foundry sent them improperly heat treated barrel blanks, and they didn't catch it), sometimes it's user error (i.e. double charges/loads, air gaps, ramrods in barrels, failure to check for an clear a bore obstruction, etc...). Lastly, don't you think that if the breechplug really were the problem that Savage wouldn't redesign it? Obviously, if Bridges were correct, failure to do so would open Savage up to liability. Yet, Savage has stuck with the design because it's been thoroughly tested and is perfectly safe. In fact, Savage engineers tried to recreate Bridges blow up and could not get another 10ML-II to blow like his did. They bulged a few barrels, but none let go. I'm willing to trust Savage, because not only do they have the qualified personnel and equipment to thoroughly test the guns their designs, they also have lawyers and a very vested interest in reducing or eliminating liability. If Savage had any doubt at all about the safety of the 10ML-II's breechplug design, they'd recall them or at the least, redesign it for new rifles. Since this hasn't happened, I'm confident that there is no design flaw. The only mistake Savage made in this whole mess is hiring Toby Bridges in the first place.

But hey, like I said, if you're so convinced your gun is unsafe, go ahead and box it up and send it to me. I'll happily pay the shipping to take it off your hands for you.

Mike

thegrizz

Drift rider..Send me $1800.00 and it's yours..money talk's.
It sounds like a couple of people have issues about Mr. bridges..I don't
I just said what I own a ML10 and what I have to do to be safe for what I see that may be a bad design and perhaps a safety issue.

driftrider

If your gun is unsafe, as you claim it is, it's not with $1800.

What's 5 lbs of scrap steel worth these days? $10? I'll give you that, plus shipping. You can keep the scope and aftermarket stock.

Mike

jcchartboy

That statement alone goes to showhow...#1). how full of BS you are about your intentionsbehind posting here #2). how clueless you are about this subject.

Please share with us the names of these "gunsmiths" thatyou supposedly claim tohaveon your payroll? Also, what are their supposed qualifications and resources that would make their conclusions any more relieable than those of every other gunsmith that has already reached the conclusion that these guns are safe?


JC