RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

I have a Ruger M77 in .308 and a Ruger #1 in 7mm. The trigger on the M77 is heavy. The #1 is perfect. They both shoot very well, although I am a hunter, not a marksman. The choice of gun is very personal to your size, needs, and perceptions. I haven't read every post, and this may have already been said, but, even though you may need an aftermarket trigger, etc, Ruger's come with integral scope mounts in the price of the gun, which may offset some of the cost of the trigger job. On the scope side of things, I like Leupold, and for a specific reason beyond being a quality scope. They have variable eye relief. I hunt from a tree stand. When I mount my gun, I have about an inch or so of "play" in the distance from my eye to the rear reticle, without losing my field of view, or seeing the "black ring". That's my 2 cents.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Ruger does have the best scope mounting system on a bolt action rifle(I have always wondered why others dont do it). And the mauser action is a solid performer.
I owna M77 7magand although I still prefer a savage(for reasons in your post)the Ruger 77 is a mighty fine huntung rifle.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Okay. I'm getting down to the nitty gritty.

I've about decided on the Remington 700 SPS. I can't decide whether to get the black on black for $428.00 at Academy or the black on SS for $504.13 at Walmart. I could pick up the black on black at Academy tonight if I wanted, but I will have to order the SS one at Walmart.

I've about decided on the Nikon Monarch 3-9x 40mm scope with the BDC recipticle in Matte finish for $288.88 with free shipping at www.4scopes.com

I thought about getting the scope in silver if I got a SS barrel but the BDC recipticle doesn't look like it comes in silver yet.

Anyone have a specific recomendation for scope rings for that combination? That site has a special to add Leupold STD base and rings for $40 more.

I still haven't 100% decided on the caliber. I know the 7mm Mag will reach out and touch whatever I would need it to and really in the big picture $10 more for a box of shells isn't going to make that much of a difference. I've shot both calibers in different rifles and can't recall one kicking any more than the other but it's been some time ago and I only remember squeezing off a couple rounds with the 7mm Mag vs. shooting a few boxes in .30-06.

I may stop by the local shooting range and check out the Ruger M77 in 7mm Mag that is black on SS because I didn't ever try one of those out to see how it felt. It is barely used but they have had it for several years without selling it. They are asking $475.00 for it so that might be one of the reasons it hasn't sold.

Thanks for all the replies. It might have confused me as much as helped me but it for sure made me feel like I was exploring all the options.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

http://theopticzone.com/detail.aspx?ID=2343

Here it is for 245plus shipping. Link courtesy of MichealT.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

That one for $245 has the Nikoplex recepticle. I was thinking the BDC recepticle would really help if I ever needed to take a long shot.

Here's the BDC recepticle -

It has the little circles under the centerline to help with distance shots.

Here's the Nikoplex Recepticle -

Here's another pictureof the BDC Recepticle -

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Here's a link to a review of the BDC recepticle - http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?fid=1&tid=4029

I found the BDC at theopticzone for $269.00 + $12.95 shipping so that gets to $281.95 so it is a tiny bit cheaper there.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Cool man I didnt realize you were still looking for that reticle. Just trying to help you save a couple $. And by the way its not a recepticle although it would be funnier if thats what they were called. (just kiddin)

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Oops. I don't know where I got recepticle. I guess I was thinking a recepticle for your eye or something.

I went and tried out some more rifles this afternoon and am even more confused. The Remington 700 SPS rifles just look too cheap and they didn't have the same feel as the BDL did either. I found some Remington 700 BDL rifles with a synthetic stock and they much felt better than the SPS to me. The blue barreled BDL's weren't that bad at just $440 with a 22" barrel but the SS BDL was $625 with a 24" barrel. What difference would the longer barrel make?

The rifle that felt the best this time around was the Browning A-Bolt in black with a wood stock. The 45 degree bolt was pretty neat also. The action on the Browning felt the best out of all of them even though it just had the 45 degree bolt. The action on the SPS was very stiff.

I looked at prices on ammo as well and the 7mm Mag ammo is really only about $6 - $7 a box more. Off the shelf the choices were 140, 150, 160 and 165 grain on the 7mm and 150, 165 and 180 on the .30-06. My heart says 7mm Mag, my brain says .30-06.

I really liked the Browing A-Bolt with the wood stock. It was $599 at Academy. The Remington BDL's were at my local rifle range.

5 pages of posts and I'm almost back to where I started. [&:]

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

A longer barrelhas abetter marginfor error, and also handles some hotter handloads betterespecially when useing aslower burning powder better.

Go with the Browning in 7mag
I can tell that you will regret it if you dont.
Although not mypersonal choice, theyareexcellent rifles.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

A longer barrel, of 24" or more, is required on magnum cartridges, and it goes like this, 24" for standard length magnums, 26" for the Weatherby Magnums and Remington Ultra Magnums, and 28" barrel for the catridges, based on the .378 WBY Mag case and that includes the .378 WBY. Stick with that criteria, and they will obtain optimum performance. A shorter barrel, like 22", in a magnum chambering, is just a waste of money, the cartridge will never be able to obtain magnum performance.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

I've been reading around and I'm not getting the impression that the brownings have great out of the box accuracy? Is this a consensus or just some of the opinions that I've happened across?

Also I noticed that the Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker has a 13 3/4" pull length. I'm tall with long arms so most guns fit me short. The Browning A-Bolt hunter is what I tried out and it has a 13 5/8" pull length. Not much of a difference but I'm wondering if the fit of the Stainless Stalker is going to be different. I can't find a A-Bolt Stainless Stalker in town to try.

I'm still waffling on the 7mm Mag vs. .30-06 and now reading even more I'm thinking about the .300 WSM! Good thing I still have a few months to decide!

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

The Brownings come glass bedded and free floated. It costs about 22$ to order new trigger springs to get thepull to exactly want you want. I would take the Browning ina heartbeat over the others you've looked at, as a matter of fact my last2 rifles have been A-bolts. A Stainless Stalker in 325WSM or 338Win will be my next one.Both ofthe rifles I bought shoot great, I dont have the boss system on either.

Do a search hereon the A-bolts you'll wont find much complaining about them.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

I love the browning A-bolt in whatever flavor. Also you CANNOT go wrong with a 7mm mag.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

I recommend, the .338 Win Mag, over the .325 WSM, bigger bullets, with higher SD, and more readily available ammo.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

I have a bunch of rifles in calibers from .223 to 7mmag, all are bolt action except the .223's are AR-15's. I just bought a thompson Center pro hunter for my 11 yr old daughter and she and I both love it. I got it in the muzzle loader set up and bought a 25.06 barrel for it. She used the 25.06 to shoot her first hog with it. No deer showed but she was really excited with the hog. The recoil reducing stock really takes out a lot of the kick outand the shortness of the rifle is perfect for her and I really like it myself. I'm going to buy another next week in muzzle loader and also a .270 or 300 win mag barrel. I'm really hooked on the TC's. I reload for all my guns and a plug-in load for the 25.06 shot a .743 group (5 shot) at the range so I believe they are accurate, and being able to change calibers is great. Hope this helps.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Okay, still researching. Talked to my brother again tonight and he brought up the .300 Win Magnum. Just as flat shooting as the 7mm Rem Mag but better punch for Elk and big Mulies but without the bullet fragmentation of the 7mm Rem Mag. Looking at the recoil table that jumps up to a 25 vs. a 20 for the 7mm Rem Mag with a 150gr bullet or a .30-06 with a 180gr bullet. Am I getting out of the comfortable range here?

Should I just get an easy shooter like the .270 win and plan on buying a second rifle if I hunt elk? This is tough, I should have just gone out and made an impulse buy!

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Please enlighten me on the bullet fragmentation of 7mm rem mag???

When doing comparisons you should use bullets with similar Section Denisity vs gr size. In the .284 (7mm) 150gr bullet has SD of .266 vs. .308 (3006, 300, etc) 150gr has a SD of .226. ie: 140/.284 & 165/.308 both have a SD of .248.

I realize your talking about recoil numbers but you really should check what the bullets you'll be using in the .308's are producing vs a straight across gr size comparison. The heavier the bullet the more it jabs and you'll probably be using 165-180 gr bullets in either of the .308 calibers.

If you worried about the recoil the 300WM will be more then your first 2 choices. Whether it is tolerable or not is up to you. All 3 are more then capable of taking the biggest mule deer or elk, no fear of that just boils down to preference. Seeing you seem to be really worried about the jab the rifle will give youtry and shootthe 300 wm& 7mm rm, if not possible you might be best to stick with what you know in the 06'.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

I know you've stated in a few different threads that you feel that bullet fragmentation on the 7mm Mag is more a result of a poor choice of bullets than a poor choice of caliber and I think you are probably correct. I just know several people (my brother included) that feel that the smaller 7mm bullet will fragment easier. His opinion is that if I suck up an take the recoil throwing a 180gr bullet out of the .300 Win Mag will result in less fragmentation chances than throwing a 150gr bullet out of the 7mm Rem Mag with the same trajectory out of both.

I'm thinking that I should have just gone out and bought a 7mm Rem Mag for my personal Christmas present a couple weeks ago and been done with this mess! ;) That's what I would have done on an impulse buy for sure and I would have probably never questioned it.

If I had to go out and buy a rifle and scope tomorrow I would buy a Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker in 7mm Rem Mag for $747.85 + $25 shipping and $25 FFL handling fee = $797.85 total + a Nikon Monarch 4-12x 40mm Scope with the BDC rectile for $279.95 + ? shipping. That gets me to $1,100ish plus another $50ish for scope rings and $30ish for a new trigger spring so I guess $1,200ish for the total package. [&:]

Quite a bit more than I wanted to spend but I guess it is better to buy quality than to go the cheap route. I could cut $150 off that if I went with a blue barrell vs. the stainless steel or I could cut $200 off that if I went with the Tikka T3 or the Remington 700 SPS in stainless but I would still be in the $1,000 range so for the difference I might as well get the one I want.

The Nikon scope is only on sale until the end of January so I will probably decide by then. If I go with the .30-06 I will get the 3-9x 40mm scope instead of the 4-12x.

I do appreciate the input from everyone!

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Okay, I've officially settled on one part of the equation. I just ordered a Nikon Monarch 4-12x 40mm Scope with BDC rectile for $288.65 including shipping from www.MidwayUSA.com. They just happened to be having a special on the exact scope I was leaning toward.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Bullet fragmentation in a 7mm?? If I understand right you are saying a 7mm bullet will come apart more than a .30 cal one? This is nonsense. If you compare for example the 175 Nosler partition in 7mm to the 180 gr .30 cal I think you would find that the 7mm penetrated deeper due to its superior SD. Not saying that is especially the best bullet in a 7mm, I'm just using it as an example. Bullets coming apart are the result of bullet construction and excessive velocity. Some bullets are designed for standard velocities and when pushed through magnum cases are pushed beyond thier intended uses. That is when you get bullet problems. Use a proper bullet for whatever round you pick and you will be fine. Wether you choose a 7mm or .300 mag they both require premium bullets especially for shots under 200 yds.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

So if you are shooting a non-premium 150gr bullet through a 7mm Rem Mag at a deer 100 yards away would it be more or less likely to frament than shooting a non-premium 150gr bullet through a .30-06 at a deer 100 yards away? I think that is where the 7mm Rem Mag gets knocked. Most people tend to buy the cheapest box of shells on the shelf in the weight that they are looking for. The velocity of the 150gr bullet is much higher coming out of the 7mm Rem Mag than the .30-06 and therefore it has more of a chance to fragment using a non-premium bullet. This needs to be overcome by shooting premium bullets that won't be affected as much from the higher velocity on impact.

Is that correct?

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Could be but I doubt it. The 7mag only travels about 200 fps more then the 30.06. I would knock the ammo first. They're probably using plain ole core lockts or wolf or something. 150 grains out of a 7mag, 30.06, or 300WM is perfect for deer. for my 30 calibers I use 165 grain bullets and my 7mag 150 grain, both work great on light skinned deer. Then again I trust either Hornaday or Federal ammunition.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

The majority of deer I have harvested with my 7mm rem mags was with 150gr Nosler ballistic tip at ranges from 30 to over 400 yards. If I shoot them behind the shoulderI have always got pass thrus. On shoulder hitsata high rate of speed (closer) sometimes I haven't got completely through but that is due to the design of the bullet being eclipsed. I have never lost a deer and the majority have dropped 50 yards or less. My primary target is the ribs so i don't see the need to worry about the closer then normal shots that may happen. I shot a mulie buck at 407 yard this fall 1/4 away, the 150 NBT entered the ribs took out the lungs and exited the opposite lower portion of the scapula doing very little damage to the opposing shoulder. The bullet performed as i expected and the deer dropped on the spot. However if closer was normal &/or I prefered the shoulder aim point I wouldn't use a polymer tip/rapid expansion bullet. Instead a premium bullet like the Nosler partion or a standard like the hornady interlock sp would be better choices IMHO.

I hunt elk annually and moose regularily previouslyI used Nosler Partitons and 160gr Accubonds with good results.2 years ago Iswitched to the 140 Barnes TSX and am sold on them for this application. 2 bull elk have been taken at 100 - 175 yards and both pass throughs with excellent wound channels. I also shot a Bull Moose in 05' at 70 yards 1/4 away, the bullet travelled through the lungs before busting the opposite shoulder and coming to rest in the hide - retention was 92% and expansion diameter was over 2x original @ .714" text book barnes pedal look. The performance was as good as it gets IMHO, pentration on angle through a 1000 plus lb animal was impressive, the lungswere soup and he took maybe a 2 steps before falling to the forest floor - all this with a load thataverages over 3200 fps at the muzzle!!!

It depends on the situation. I don't really consider the Nosler ballistic Tip a premium bullet but it works perfectly for my deer sized hunting needs. For larger then deer I look to a premium controlled expansion bullet like mentioned above. This has been my MO regardless of the cartridgeI load for be it a 06', 7mm rem mag, etc.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Id personally go with the ruger ina 7mm mag i owned a 7mag and loved it. the browning is also a wonderful choice ive shot several 710 and i dont care on how the bolt cycles it seems rough and unreliable but hey thats just me. The 7 mag would serve u well in any of theese model guns but u need to pick a gun that best fits you, bring it to your shoulder and cycle the bolt and see if it feels natural to you and when u find one that does grab it asap.;)

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

ok well id never take an 30-06 over a 7mm mag it just isent done the 7mm and the 30-06 are close to 400 yards and than the 7mm hits powerband and leavs the 30-06 behind and in the dirt. 1 7mm flatter shooting 2 7mm is more accurate 3 i believe it is the most versitile calibur out ther 4 the recoil is close to the same 5 7mm is faster 6 buy the 7mm mag youll be happier with it i believe. id go for the odd6 if i was hunting thick brush but no id still take my 7mm i have a 30-06 and i like my 7mm more because its nicer to shoot and i can shoot further. there both good but the 7mm mag is better

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

the bullets are the same price too the 7mm mags are not any more expensive than the 30-06 at least here in canada 17 to 20 a box for both

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

the 7mm is flatter than the 300 and the 300 hurts when you pull the trigger

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

there is alot of good points in here really good points

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

To me, I get the feel that you're passing on a lot of bias from what other people are pesruading to you. You're correct sir, in that the Remington SPS is made cheaply. Stay away from the 710, I have one in 30-06 but only as a backup to my Ruger M77 7 Mag. So have you picked up the Ruger M77 yet? I love my Ruger M77 7mag, it's a beuatiful gun!

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

I'm still thinking about it! I've since purchased some property here in Texas and will probably spend more time hunting around here and a 7mm Mag is a bit overkill down here so I'm now thinking I might should buy2 rifles. If I do that I will probably buy a .300 Win Mag and a .270 Win. Then again, browning A-bolt Stainless Stalker is on sale right now for $691 in .30-06. There is an old style M77 in 7mm Mag at my local shooting range that has been there forever but they want $475 for it and that old style stock looks like it would kick like a mule. I don't think I'm any closer to deciding what I want than when I started this thread!!!

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

You can get a brand new M77MKIIfor that or cheaper since they're clearing them out for the new M77 Hawkeye. Don't get me wrong, Remington makes good rifles, just so long as it's not a 710 but IMO, the SPS is comparable to the cheapo Savages, what are they 110's and 111's, but cost a little more. You are better off paying the $450 for better quality. Just my opinion.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

I just went through all of it myslef !! I started off wanting a 30-06 or 7mag !!

After doing a lot of what you are doing I was inches away from buying a Browning A-bolt blued/sythetic .280 for $629 !! But I read all the stuff about the Tikka's and checked one out and ended up going with a T3 stainless .270 WSM for $499 !!

I really like the gun ! It shoots good and ended up shooting a lot flatter than I expected ! The ballistics are slighlty better than a 7mag if they both are shooting the same grain bullet but the .270 WSMkicks less !! I shot a deer 2 days after I bought mine at 125 yards and flopped it with a lung shot !! So I was impressed needless to say ! I don't know a whole lot about guns............but the Tikka is a good value IMO !! The A-bolt has a more quality feel and look to it ...........but I don't think when it gets to the meat and potatoes part of it .........that it's really any better !! Long term may tell me different but right now I am very happy with what I got for $499 !!

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

the 7mm mag is in no way over kill for anything i have shot deer at 20 yards with mine and there was no meat damage where my 270 hasin the past wreaked alot of meat on game. but you can if you do it wrong have a mess with any gun 7mm if you can see it you can hit it thats what i like about the 7mm accuracy and long rangeif your going to be hunting only in the bush go with something different 30-06 or maybe a 270 but if your hunting openlasnd and cutbloks and stuff why not be set up for that trophy buck 500 yards away that you cant sneak up on because it has your seant and its looking straight at you. all guns will do the trick but some will do it easier. but the main thing is like find something you really like. research every calibur you like like the 270 the 30-06 the 7mm mag and throw in a few you never thought of like a 243 or a 6mm or an 8mm the 6mm and the 8mm will be hard to find ammo for and if you like the wsm' well id sudgest looking at the 270wsm i have been looking at it myself but i cant justify it because my 7mm mag is a lil better out at 800 yards. do the reasearch what stands out and you like the most go for that cal dont just look at the bullet trajectory up to 400 yards go to 800 or better alot of bullets will be close and look the same to 200 yards and to 400 yards find out whats best for you. my grandfather shot a 7mm mag and i reasearched it for years before i bought one. well do some serious research on the cals before you select one.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

You came away with a great deal my friend! I wanted the Tikka T3 stainless but at the time they were nearly $600 and I ended up with my Ruger M77 MKII stainless in you guessed it, 7 Mag for $504. I think if npaden or can find a good deal like ours (yours was better), then he should go for it. Tikka T3 Lite, Remington(other then 710), Savage(16 or 116 only), Ruger M77, or Kimber.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Well, one of these days I am going to actually have to go buy a rifle. :D

I'm still stuck on this. Right now I am waffling between just going over to Academy Sports here in town and buying an A-Bolt Hunter with a wood stock and a matte blue barrel for $599 + $49 sales tax for a total of $648 and ordering a A-Bolt Stainless Stalker in 7mm Mag for $763 + $25 shipping and $25 FFL transfer fee for a total of $813.

I did somemore research on ballistics and Federal makes a 180 gr Nosler Accubond that gives the .30-06 plenty of punch out to 400 yards (1,658 ft lbs) with a drop of 24 inches. I think that would be enough for elk and 400 yards is probably the edge of where I feel I would be willing to take a shot at a deer or elk anyway. The 7mm Mag does outperform it (1,777 ft lbs pushing a 160 gr Accubond and a drop of 20 inches at 400 yards) but not sure if it is enough to really make a difference. In reality I will be shooting most shots at 300 yards or less and at 300 yards or less there is very little difference in the calibers.

When looking at other calibers one that suprised me was the old .270 winchester. It actually outperforms the .30-06 throwing the same bullet in most cases. It is tempting to get one, but there just isn't a factory load for the .270 that I would be comfortable shooting at an elk with.

Right now I'm leaning toward the .30-06. It will be easy to just go pick it up and walk out with it the same day. No messing with shipping and FFL transfers and fun stuff like that. The $165 difference in cost isn't much but I could put that toward a range finder or a nice pair of binoculars and be farther ahead than the difference between the 7mm Mag and the .30-06.

I was going to update the post saying that I have for sure decided on the .30-06 with the wood stock and matte blue barrel for $648 including sales tax at Academy but I figure I'll givemyself one more week to think on it.

Thanks again for all the input.

Nathan

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

A couple more thoughts.

Based on the ballistics research it seems like picking the right cartridge for the animal you are hunting is more important than selecting the right caliber. The 180 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw sounded like a solid cartridge so I pulled up it's ballistic chart and it dropped all the way down to 1,258 ft lbs of energy at 400 yards compared to the 180 gr Accubond with 1,658 ft lbs of energy at 400 yards. Quite a difference.

Lastly, I wonder if the 26" barrel of the 7mm Mag in the A-Bolt would make much of a difference in any of these ballistic numbers vs. the 22" barrel of the .30-06 in the A-Bolt?

Thanks, Nathan

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

The real kicker is that I would like to use the same gun for an occasional elk hunt. I think if elk were not in the picture the .270 win would be plenty. If I look at what is out there that I would use as an elk cartridge, I think the best performing cartrige for each caliber in Federal brand ammo is the Nosler Accubond.

Here's the scoop:

.270 win - 140 gr Accubond - Energy - 300 yds 1,796; 400 yds 1,554 - Drop 300 yds -6.7; 400 yds -19.5
.30-06 spr - 180 gr Accubond - Engy - 300 yds 1,922; 400 yds 1,658 - Drop 300 yds -8.3; 400 yds -23.8
7mm Rem Mag - 160 gr Accbd - Engy - 300 yds 2,035; 400 yds 1,777 - Drop 300 yds -6.9; 400 yds -19.9

Looking at it from that perspective the .270 win almost has me believing that it would be fine for elk but I just can't get myself to believe it.

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

DUDE, JUST THROW A DART & BUY A GUN!

Any ofthese caliberswill kill deer & elk! Don't let all the information weigh you down, just buy a rifle & start shooting it!

Accept the fact that you're never going to find a consensus around here on what's best. What you WILL find is a lot of people who'll congratulate you when you post pictures of your trophies!

I hereby ORDER you to go buya rifle! (and tell us which one!).

FC

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Have you considered the .270 WSM?:D

RE: Help decide on rifle purchase
 

Nathan, be patient and get the 7 mag. Don't be impatient and end up with something you will not like later. Remember that this rifle may be the one you will have for a life time. Nothing wrong with either caliber but get the one rifle that you will be truly happy with in the long run! Good luck!

Ron