RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

It is a good law.If my mind is sound enough to to pack heat in a grocery store,it's sound enough to do so while hunting or spot lighting.

This guy that you speak so often about with the contender,did he just start taking his contender out while poaching since a person can now spotight with a conceiled weapon.By the way,I doubt a scoped contender would stand up in court as a conceiled weapon.I'M SURE THE FACT THAT CARRYING A CONCEILED WEAPON WHILE SPOT LIGHTING WAS NEVER LEGAL BEFORE,NEVER STOPPED THE POACHER FROM BRINGING HIS CONTENEDER ALONG FOR A RIDE.By the way,the law was not made by the PGC.Our legislature,that you approve getting involved with wildlife management issues changed the law.

I'm not going to argue about the crossbow vote in Pa.However,I have to clear up some innacuracies from Mr Sproul.Hunters are not concerned and outraged that crossbows will results in more doe being killed.The antlerless harvest is controlled by allocations,PERIOD.Crossbows will not kill any more doe.What many fear,is that the inclusion of too many crossbows will increase the pre-rut buck kill(not the total buck kill).In the past biolgists warned that if the pre-rut buck harvest went up much,they may be forced to shorted the season from our already short 6 weeks.

New Crossbow Deer Hunting Rules per the PGC
 

As a former resident, I was surprised. I didn't think the PGC would take the heat. But economics did play a role.
Here is the official PGC news release:

Pennsylvania Game Commission

2009 Press Releases
Pennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency

Release #013-09



BOARD APPROVES EXPANDED USE OF CROSSBOWS

The Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners today gave final approval to expand the lawful use of crossbows to include both the archery deer and bear seasons for the 2009-10 seasons. The Board amended the proposal by including a sunset date for the expanded crossbow use that will require a future Board to vote on the measure again before June 30, 2012.


Under the new regulation, a crossbow must have a peak drawn weight of at least 125 pounds, and a bolt must be equipped with a broadhead that has an outside diameter or width of at least 7/8 inches with at least two cutting edges on the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface, and shall not exceed three inches in length.


Also, before giving the measure final approval, the Board adopted an amendment to prohibit the use of magnifying scopes for archery equipment and crossbows during the archery bear and deer seasons. The use of non-magnifying scopes – such as those that provide a red dot for sighting purposes – will continue to be legal.


The proposal given approval also would remove the lawful use of crossbows during the October muzzleloader or late flintlock muzzleloader season. Other changes made by the proposal simplify and make the language of the regulations easier to understand.

*******

As they said in my younger days, nothing much changes when you have a million hunters in orange, trudging through Penn's Woods.

I'm sure there was some fear in the increase of deer harvests because hunters would use a more "modern" weapon. Plus the fact there are hundreds of thousands of licensed PA deer hunters who do not hunt during the archery season. I am also sure the sunset provision is a fall back line, by the commission, if crossbow hunting proves too successful.

Economically, the PGC has not had a recent license price increase. They say the buying power of the last increase and license fee has fallen 30 % in purchasing value. And revenue from forest cuttings will decrease in the present recession.
While a doubling of archers hunting in Penn's Woods will increase the total hunting fees, I'm sure some of the commissioners are wary of the archery deer harvest.

Of course, PA deer hunters are a mild manner lot, who would never protest an increase in an archery hunting season harvest. Of course not!

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

What's Pa.'srationale for no magnification on scopes/red dots??? I would think a little magnification would make for good clean harvests.Any thoughts?

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

The crossbow proponents were saying that a crossbow still only a 20-30 yard weapon.Why is a scope needed to take shots that close?

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

After reading all the posts, IMO, The reason we have no deer is the 2 week doe and buck season together. The old 3 day doe season took less doe. Its ez to kill a doe with a rifle if you see any. Not so with a crossbow. I have a permit and I can say after 5 years of crossbow hunting I have had deer jump the noise it makes and have a clean miss at 20 yards. More than once. The only buck I ever shot jumped the string and instead of a lung shot I got him in the spine and he went down. He was only 10 yards. I still have to be closer to the deer than 30 yards as the noise and the crossbow is not very accutate past 25 yards. So as a longtime bowhunter I see no advantage to the crossbow over my old compound. I would buy one if I did not have one as they are fun to shoot, Even the youngsters like shooting it which means they will have some interest to hunt when a little older when its not freezing out. A red dot or a big scope will not make the bow shoot any better. I have tried both and the only advantage for me was when counting points to see if it was 5 or better.

Happy Hunting, Stan

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

Because the bow hunters in PA don't want more people in their woods as they claim on the PA forum. They don't want someone comming in and killing their monster buck or stinking and stomping up the woods with these new Xbows. That is why. Alot of selfish hunters in PA. Another reason I will be hunting Ohio this year and not PA.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

You haven't used the new Xbows then. 405 fps and very accurate out to 45 yrds. These are the state of the art design and not your 200$ bows thatI amtalking about.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

We here in Alabama approved the universal use of X-Bows a few years back. There were the identical lamentations here that have already been expressed by others on this string.However, those "fears" never panned out in Alabama.For sure the hunting stores were indeed fogged with folks that figured here was an easy way to get into the "archery" season. I know 5 folks who rushed out to by X-Bows. None were here to fore archers. They were all looking to extend their season 6 weeks and all expecting a simplistic route to taking deer during the archery only days here in Alabama. I bought one for my handicapped brother. When it turned out to be too heavy and complex for his particular situation, I kept it.(Glad I did.)

Of the 6 of us only 3 still have the X-Bow. Only 2 of us have taken deer with our X-Bow. The others gave up after discovering that there is really not that much of a difference in down range performace, shootability or accuracy between a good X-Bow and a god compound.The major advantagewas not having to make and hold a draw.The big disadvantages were weight and having to have a clear area as wide as the X-Bow's limbs to be certain that the X-Bow can be fired without the limbs striking anything. Where I hunt, that is a big deal.

As for me, I am 60 years old, and donot rebound from injuries like I did even 10 ears ago. After injuring my shoulder in early October setting up a lock-on, I wasunable to draw my compound witout a good deal of pain.With about 4 1/2 weeks in the archeryseason left, I switched to the X-Bow.I lucked out and was able to take 2 does with it, but the real plus for me was having a "chance" to hunt those weeks,feeling good about my chances to add meat to the table.

So my advice ... just chill and watch what happens over the next 3-4 years. I think it will mirror what has happened here in Alabama.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

Did they change the 200 lb limit on crossbows? New to me if they did.

Stan

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

you are right on PISTOL THING, MY MISTAKE,it was legislature that passed that law.

this poacher was caught spotlighting after hrs.

we could not take his gun away because it was PISTOL[:@]

rifle they could have confiscated if PGC law says so.

you are wrong if you think crossbow will not increase doe kill, it will.

so, if what you say is FACT, why did the PGC allow crossbows to be used if BUCK kill would go up.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

jack, you are right and that has been my reason too, its nice to be alone in archery.

other is no training is happening with these crossbows,folks think they are 60 yd weapon for deer.

that makes me very mad to think that deer are going to be shot at that far.

i am not selfish but i do like to be alone in woods in archery and dont need more hunters,its bad enough now.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

Sproulman,why would you detain a guy that was spotighting?Did you have evidence that he killed a deer?

The doe kill is controlled by the antlerless allocations.It always has been,always will be.

The PGC caved into political pressure,The legislature,who you seem so fond of,threatened to change the definition of a bow,which would include crossbows.Crossbows were coming,regardless.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

douge, guy we were after shot a big buck and cut horns off.

we could not catch him but we found deer and know he did it.

we set up and caught him a week later spotlighting AFTER hrs.

but they could not take his gun because it was A PISTOL, THOMPSON CONTENDER 223.

this was all told to me by a deputy friends.

you said about poachers doing this before the new law, yes, you are right.

sorry i got off topic.:eek:

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

sproulman, You say that with crossbows there is no need to practice to get proficient with. Well come to my neck of the woods in NJ and see how many just shoot a compound bow and take it out a couple days before season if not the DAY before the season and shoots at a paper plate at 20 yards and say I am ready. Last year I had two hunters do just that and asked if I would help them find there deer and I said sure. I asked where they hit it and how far the shot was and they told me under 15 yards and I shot it in the HIP. [:@] I asked if they practiced and they said yup yesterday which was the day before season opened. SO don't just tell me its crossbows. It makes me sick even in my own club where I beg and plead with them to make some kind of qualifying to be able to hunt our club property just to show proficiency. out of 5 hunters last year who hunted our property 3 deer where never recovered. NOT very good for a total of 5 deer shot at and only 2 recovered. I was not part of that as I didn't hunt our property. So its not just what you think about us crossbowers just picking up a crossbow and go hunting.


Oh one more thing. You compound bow hunters should not be allowed to hunt in archery season either as its not REAL archery. Pick up a long bow and then you should be allowed to hunt archery. Compounds have an unfair advantage over the long bow. you don't have to hold back all the weight so its so easy and all those fancy gadgets such as releases, fiber optic sites, levels, stabilizers,. etc, also the speed of the compound bow shoots way faster than a long bow. I bet most compounds are shooting a hunting weight arrow over 300 fps or is VERY close to it. Long bow under 200 or very close to it. How the heck did a compound bow get allowed in a REAL archery season. Heck you guys with compounds are shooting at deer over 60 yards I bet with all these technological advances in archery. I remember guys I have talked to who said the same thing you guys are saying now 30 and 40 years ago when the compound came out. They didn't want you in THEIR archery season but you snuck in. I bet a compound bow would of or should of been for ony disabled hunters so they didn't have to hold back the FULL poundage of the bow to make it easier. You only had to make that initial draw then when those HORRID cames turnd over you would be holding a lot less lbs. THis is not to belittle anyone please don't take it as that but its what I see as a new crossbow user. Us crossbow users are going through what you guys went through years ago. So please stop complaining about it. will you see an increase in hunters maybe, but I bet its the ones who couldn't get a medical permit in the first place and now can get out, or who had to leave archery do to being older and not being able to shoot a vertical bow, long bow or whatever.. OR you will see some of your compound hunters trying a crossbow to see what its like. But I wonder if there will be a way to see if there has been a increase in deer taken or not. I STILL wish PGC would have a manditory checking stations for accurate calculations of deer being harvests just like the bears are checked. They need accurate numbers to say the least and not just a mail in option.

Breaking barriers is always tuff and this is no different. I just hope we all can be friends in the end and enjoy whatever weapon we hunt with and we always be ok with it.:)

I know my best friend a my club will be using one do to his MS and was unable to get a disabled permit to hunt with a crossbow. Its a great day for him that NJ is allowing him and me to use one next year.

I am done with this not worth my time.

FORMER HOYT TRYKON shooter and traded in on a STRYKEFORCE crossbow:D

Brian

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

i dont think i said you dont need to practice with crossbow.

it does take more physical skill to pull a compound and learn to shoot it vrs a crossbow.

i can take my crossbow out and shoot in same hole at 20 yds over and over even with a bad shoulder.

try to do that with compound even with a good shoulder.;)

it fact, i said you need TRAINING to shoot a crossbow.

my comments werenever about the crossbow,they were always about LACK OF DEER ,MORE STINK IN WOODS FROM NEW HUNTERS,THINKING THEY CAN SHOOT 40.50/60 YDS.

it was never a dislike for crossbow or ones that are ETHICAL HUNTERS ,its new ones that think they are gun that bothers me.

most i know that have a compound are going to buy a crossbow.

here is disturbing part tho.

they feel that anyone can just pick it up and go hunting.

they have 3 kids and only buying 1 crossbow,they are planning to share the crossbow with each kid.

try doing that with a recurve or compund bow.

give it try and let me know how you do.;)

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

Well I do hope they do practice with it or they will miss badly or like the compound shooters I was talking about just go out and shoot the day before and shoot a deer in the butt at 15 yards. They both take practice. As I don't have my crossbow yet I can't tell you how easy or hard it is to be honest. But I was very accurate with my Hoyt trykon or my Darton Maverick to over 50 yards.

Now we both know that you need to be fitted for a bow to be a good shooter. The crossbow is almost like it but there are different sizes of crossbows that will fit another person better. There are big and heavy ones and lighter ones better for kids. If they all practice so what no big deal if they share one.

But its not unheard of to borrow another ones vertical bow to use during hunting. I have done it once. I have a 32" draw and my friends has a 29" draw. It wasnt comfortable but I was still very accurate to 25 yards. Never had a shot that day but felt confident at 25 yards to make a shot.

More hunters in the woods maybe we will see. or you will see. I hunt NJ haven't been to PA is years.


Well to be totally honest with my feeling here I really hope that you are wrong and you don't see 20,000 new hunters just lobbing arrows around and we will all take the time to practice and become proficient with our chose weapons. As far as hunters enjoying going out hunting I am all for it. I hope people who didn't get to hunt archery season do to getting up in age that love bow hunting will be able to get back out again do to crossbows being allowed.

What if 20,000 new vertical bow hunters showed up in your woods of PA would you be upset over this?

Brian

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

i own crossbow, i love shooting target with it.

if i am DISABLED, SOMEDAY I WILL USE IT FOR DEER HUNTING.

so, if you need advice on crossbow, i can help and many others here, just PM me.

yes, i would be mad in WMU2G if 20,000 new archery hunters invaded my area i hunt.

you should see how hard it is now,i dont hate hard but i dont need a guy with crossbow walking down a path with scope on trying to shoot 60 yds.

if there was lots of deer left, i would have no problem with all these new weapons and seasons we now have.

but putting crossbows in hands of people without training or using common sense,IS A STUPID THING.

having a scope on crossbow that shows 50 or 60 yds is FIRST mistake ,people think they can shoot that far.

again, it all comes back to TRAINING,

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. But it soulds like the PGC is not doinga good job of manageing the deer population in PA.


Here in NJ were there are a lot of hunters like there is in PA I can honestly say I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANOTHER HUNTER WHILE BOWHUNTING EVER. I also can say most of those years bowhunting are on Public land.

You just might have to go in a bit farther or something if its really that bad. I know I would if it was so bad that it ruined my hunt. I would be looking for some new ground to get away from everyone else. Just a thought. But I bet you probably did if you are this upset.

I know what you mean about training. I wish I could get these people with Vertical bows to be better with there abilities. I mean come on a 15 yard shot and you hit them in the BUTT. I have even heard them saying I couldn't see very good soI shot for the middle.[:@]holy crap are you kidding me. I Have talked to the president of the club and he says they pay their dues so we can't say you have to pass a proficiency test. As long as they are legal they can hunt. Upsets the heck out of me. I wish they would get better but they suck at archery but continue to launch arrows from compounds and miss deer at 15 to 20 yards.They think this is some kind of magical weapon shooting an arrow over300 fps should put them on their butts.For GOD's sake man please give it up or practice. But they wont till season is a couple days away. Ticks me off. So its not just Crossbows man.

Well best of luck

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

i used to hunt in LAKEWOOD .

boy, deer hunting was good in 1979.

i saw 100 deer come into 1 pond ,i had to wait as they were bumping into each other.

how is hunting there now.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

sproulman, I don't hunt in lakewood it about 45 minutes away from me. But in my area in the pine barrens we have had good years and some hard years on deer numbers. Coyotes are big on our hit list for decreasing the deer population. 2 or 3 years ago we had such reduced numbers of deer harvest. We almost had no deer come into our feeders at our club. Not many pictures. If you were out hunting and seen a deer you were lucky. Many people in the area says they are hearing a lot of coyotes around that werent around in past years. I even got a coyote on our camera to prove it to our club members. This year has been better as we would have 8 to 12 deer come into our feeders and our food plots.

I have heard that lakewood has some good size deer. Not in my area in the pine barrens, we don't have good nutrition but with our food plots we have seen an increase over the last two years in body weight. I feel we have gained about 15 to 20 lbs on our deer as a whole during this time. Get this we are hoping to harvest our first 100 lb field dressed deer this coming year. [&o] Sad I know. But we have done a lot with the little bit of ground we have.

Brian

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

Glad to hear you aren't selfish, lol
you seem to be up on stupid
bench or bs? hint: I know the answer

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

i was wondering how long it wouldtake YOUto respond.

one thing you learned from me,I NEVER BULL ****......;)

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

I can honestly say I haven't learned anything from you, Sproul. About you maybe, but not from you.

I heard hunters saying [sound familiar?] it was YOUR fault Pa went full inclusion!!!

Seems all those does you haven't been shooting have been dropping fawns which have been getting bred.......Caused the herd to be needed to be cut down.

Any truth to that?

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

no truth to that.there is not ALL those doe,there was.:(

there are very few fawns in wmu2g ,clinton county,pa.

in fact, i just talked to wife, if you would like to come here for vacation to hunt, you could stay with us for a week and you could see impact of how bad our hunting is do to DOE slaughter last 10 years has done.


all i ask is that you report on here when you get home what you saw.

want to come?

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

thankyou no. I can take all the deer I need here in Ar. I'm a meat type. I have had property available to hunt in Pa since I lived there. I can still remember the first deer hunt I was on in Pa. Just out side Columbia. Thought it was a dog pack that ran by the stand in predawn poor light, sure were small.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

well, if you change your mine, give me PM.


beautiful here in archery and you can use your crossbow.

i had to walk 3 miles, i got struck out in mountains with my dog along.[:@]

truck is deep in snow.lucky i got ride into home, the guy that picked me up had a case of miller in his lap driving and drinking the whole trip for 7 miles to my home.:eek:

man, i was stiff as board over that, i guess nothing scares me too much even a guy loaded behind wheel.:eek:

its going to take meall morning with help to dig me out of that mess.

i could not believe snow was 3 ft deep in roads with drifts higher.

i had chains on front too:eek:

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

"You compound bow hunters should not be allowed to hunt in archery season either as its not REAL archery. Pick up a long bow and then you should be allowed to hunt archery. Compounds have an unfair advantage over the long bow. you don't have to hold back all the weight so its so easy and all those fancy gadgets such as releases, fiber optic sites, levels, stabilizers,. etc, also the speed of the compound bow shoots way faster than a long bow. I bet most compounds are shooting a hunting weight arrow over 300 fps or is VERY close to it. Long bow under 200 or very close to it. How the heck did a compound bow get allowed in a REAL archery season. Heck you guys with compounds are shooting at deer over 60 yards I bet with all these technological advances in archery. I remember guys I have talked to who said the same thing you guys are saying now 30 and 40 years ago when the compound came out. They didn't want you in THEIR archery season but you snuck in. I bet a compound bow would of or should of been for ony disabled hunters so they didn't have to hold back the FULL poundage of the bow to make it easier. You only had to make that initial draw then when those HORRID cames turnd over you would be holding a lot less lbs. THis is not to belittle anyone please don't take it as that but its what I see as a new crossbow user. Us crossbow users are going through what you guys went through years ago. So please stop complaining about it."

I agree with this post 1000%. Way back when, I was opposed to compound bows. But Pandora's box was opened and there is no turning back. Just like having an in-line muzzleloader season, scopes included. May as well allow centerfire rifles. I will be using a crossbow this year (for the first time), because the surgeries that I had 4 years ago won't allow me to pull a vertical bow enough to become proficient for hunting. I would qualify for a handicap permit. But I'm not going to b*itch about inclusion. That went out the window a long time ago.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

outsider, I wonder what they say about the type of MZ like I have. I have the savage 10ml II that shoots smokeless powders and I can get velocities with 250 gr bullets of over 2500 fps. So you are right that they can be like rifles. If they are not allowed it might not be too far off. But I have to say I love this MZ. My new load I am going to be working on is the Barnes origional .458 300 gr ssp. Powder will be N120. I should be able to get this to about 2350 fps. So modern MZing is even more modern than most people think.

Can you imagine what the people would say if my Savage 10ml II was allowed with smokeless powder I think PA would explode.



Brian

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

i use a BLACK WIDOW recurve bow right now, no compound .

i sold my ONEIDA EAGLE compound bow 20 years ago, NEVER LIKED USING A BOW WITH SIGHTS ETC. no fun.

i also have crossbow ,HORTON ULTRA SL that i bought second hand.

i love shooting it in my basement in winter,i sight in many bows for the DISABLED at our club.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

They are allowed, scopes and all during the early muzzleloader season, which is in the middle of archery season.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

outsider but is the there any stipulation for only using Black powder. Because if they don't say Smokeless powder is forbidden then the savage guys CAN use smokeless powder.

As here in NJ it says NO SMOKELESS POWDER only black powder and such.

Just wondering what PA stated.

Brian

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

I looked online under "Big Game Regulations" on the PGC website and didn't see any powder restrictions.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

Just so you do know Sproulman regardless of whether or not you have a permitt to carry it is illegal in PA to carry a pistol while spotlighting. It is illegal to carry any firearm whether its a gun or bow.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

no, you can carry a PISTOL while spotlighting,all legal in pa if you have a LTC permit.

now you know why i get so mad over these things that are happening.

you can also carry a PISTOL while archery hunting.

weapon of choice is the THOMPSON CONTENDER PISTOL in the 223/222for poaching.

RE: Full inclusion for PA
 

Sproul is correct, you can carry a handgun while spotlighting and archery hunting, if you have a license tocarry. For all the details go to PGC's website and lookunder "General Hunting Regulations".



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