RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Boys, lets not start a pi$$'n contest and try to educate. BB said it all in his last post.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Bigg~Birdd,

It appears I am fighting a losing battle for some of you crossbow hunters. While trying to understand the "Why", there are some who do their best to alienate compound bowhunters- all the while chanting "We are all bowhunters!"

You cant have it both ways. It feels like you crossbow guyshave been unfairly treated like stepchildren and do not trust compound bowhunters. So, you automatically (and mistakenly!) runoffthe compound bowhunters (falsely accusing them of "thinking they are better") then complain that youare "nottreated the same".Again, I say this is a mistake.

This has been one of the most informative threads I have participated in. Met some wonderful and intelligent people and know that, for the most part, our passion for hunting is still intact. I will stop by from time to time and say "Hi" to everyone. Might even look into buying one of those "mysterious and too-lethal crossbows". (Ha! Ha!)

Thanks, everyone.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

DnK,

The archery community is lucky to have you as a member.

Thanks.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Dave, the feeling is mutual. You are a refreshing change from what we are accustomed to. I am sorry you're experience wasn't perfect but I know you're knowledge base has been expanded.
Carefull Dave, once you've spent some time with a crossbow like an Excalibur or like quality, you'll be hooked!
Have fun and I am sure you'll do well with your ranch with your attitude.
Don

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

I am doing my best to explain, but maybe my words are not coming out right. When you ask why and then say the above statement that you chose archery because I like the challenge, up close. ect... you say to me and others that a crossbow is not worthy of being called archery. I for one find that as a insult, plain and simple. By saying it is not archery is a lie. If you want to have a category that is for archery that by definition it would have to be for long bows only. If for what ever your reason my method of launching a arrow is not archery then you must also admit a compound is not archery. All the fiber optic sights, 80% let off, you have a trigger just like me and they now even offer red dot scopes for compound's. That one line I feel is a form of segregation and ones self of thinking you are better then others. That statement implies that I have no skill and none is needed to shoot a deer with a CB. The only advantage I have over you is I do not have to draw on a up close deer. But that is the only advantage I feel I have over you.



When you say Good, you are admitting how you truly feel about the CB crowd. Again, I said my lip curls because you insult the CB crowd by saying your method is more worthy then mine. I will only take crap from one crowd and that is the traditional crowd. That takes alot of time and skill IMO. They are the only ones that can say they are doing it the hard way. A modern Compound is only a light shade of gray behind a CB with all the technology you guys have on them.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Jason, read this. Maybe too many words, miss-communication, weariness, fear etc etc. But fortuneatly I think Dave is ahead in what he knows. That was the purpose of his visit here.
x From: Montana Dave To: Dnk Date: 4/1/2007 1:13:49 PM Subject: RE: thread
With you??? Thats an understatement! I am going to PROMOTE crossbow hunting at my place. To alienate compound bowhunters is a mistake! Archery is archery! Isnt that what crossbow hunters say they support? Crossbow hunters are treated differently, for whatever reason.For that, I am sorry. I dont agree with it- but it is true.

(Now the following is directed at everyone including me)I'd hate to think that his impression of us is that we are a bunch of arguementative jerks. We have been granted the technology to converse over continents and countries. Lets be wise and use this wonderfull tool to educate and inform people about what we really are. I know its hard to drop our guards but we somehow have to, well maybe not with Sproule but everyone else.............

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Hotburn,

For whatever reason, you have it in your head that I am out to get you. I can assure you that you're wrong.

Every bowhunter I know takes up archery in order to accomplish something more difficult (than rifle) and get close. If this insults you to the point of doing a "lip curl", please, for laughters sake, let us all know "why" you took up bowhunting.

I patiently await your response.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Dave, I just visited your website. Pretty cool. Prices are pretty good too. Is it only exotics?

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Ditto on the above! I'm guessing you have hogs too? If you end up allowing xbows, I might be interested in a hunt.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Hogs have moved in lately and I have declared war on them. How does $5. apiece sound? Please know I am not trying to promote my ranch here. Please PM me with questionsabout the Ranch.

And yes, I will now allow crossbows. Archery is archery, right?You have to agree to share some of that backstrap on the grill one night, though! (Ha! Ha!)

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Dave, your ranch is not far from me and your prices are not bad at all. Looks like a nice place.

As for this whole archery community infighting I have been introduced to of late; from the point of view of a longtime shooter, it's all archery to me!

Simple formulae: string + arrow = archery
gunpowder + ignition + bullet = guns

As for getting close, gun hunters are not required to make 300 yard shots to take game, they mey get as close as they wish before shooting. I like getting close too, but then again there's no choice where I hunt. What I mean is, it seems there are lots of gun hunters out there cheating themselves out of a more enjoyable hunt. I'm not saying I'm any better; I know I would pass on a long shot at a doe or spike, but a wallhanger at 500 yards is probably going to get dropped like a bad habit under the right circumstances!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

As an unbiased person who just happened to see this topic listed as the most recent in the forum I just read through this thread.

I think some of the crossbow users are overly defensive. It seems that Hotburn is one of those as he keeps taking offense when Montana Dave refers to archery and archers and does not realize that in fact Montana Dave is including crossbows when he refers to arhery and archers. Even on this forum Crossbows, Traditional Bow, and Modern Compound Bows are all under the "Archery" category. I'm not sure if Hotburn is offended by that or not?

I have no idea whatSproulman said in this thread to set Dnk off like that but I'm guessing there must be some past history there?

I have been debating on getting a compound bow for a while and still haven't made up my mind. Texas is one of the 8 "green states" so I might look into getting a crossbow, but the other state I hunt in is Montana and they are a blue state so I'll have to read up on their restrictions also.

Just an additional comment from another unbiased individual that you guys might be a little easier to listen to if you weren't as defensive.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

I have quoted your original post and try and explain what I think you are saying. If what I say is what you were not meaning then I will apologize for the past post. But I ask that you please explain this post as to what you meant. Try not and say I don't understand, if you feel I don't then explain this first post different.


Now you said why and then said bowhunting fanatic and choose archery. If when typing this you mean CB's as part of archery and just want to understand why, then I misunderstood you from the beginning and will say sorry. I took it as your form of hunting is archery, more skill, you arechallenged moreand mine is not archery and not a challenge. Was that what you meant? Please explain, you sound like a good guy, but like me are defending right? Again please explain so I can understand your original post.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

You hit the nail on the head npaden.
Usually these threads go south, fast. Dave maintained his position throughout the whole thing, that is respectable. What is most impressive over the whole thing is he not only hunts with a compound but he has now done something monumental, and offered guys with crossbows a place to hunt. He specifically said he was not promoting his ranch, and I do not doubt that. He asked for opinions and got them.
I am not pro or anti anything, but I do appreciate an open mind.

Thanks for your unbiased opinion.:D

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Hotburn,

That is the most confusing post in internet history. Please dont "try and explain what I think you are saying". I said what I said. Dont look so far into it, you confuse yourself.

Still patiently waiting for your response as to "why" you bowhunt. You have done your best to discredit me in this open forum,publically posting that it upset you that I like the challenge of getting close.Still puzzled, please respond.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Hotburn, if you would go to Dave's site you will see in his forums section that before he posted his question here, he had already decided to allow xbows at his place. I don't think he has anything against our choice in archery eqipment. I think we should concentrate on aswering the man's question instead of getting a rash over it. The first crossbow I ever touched was the Vixen I ordered from Excal. Lots of other people have never touched one either. Let's not run somebody off just when they get interested.

Y'all make my head hurt!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Here is my post from the same thread over in the bowhunting forum.

To me, there are two or three broad ways to look at hunting and what you get out of it and why you’re there. First is obviously the “meat”. If this was your first priority, you’d have no problem using a 30.06, or any other weapon that increased your odds. Second is tradition and time with family, or just enjoying being there and doing it. Third, is in my opinion where we all get a little weirded out, and it is how we like to challenge ourselves, prove our worth as hunters, and most importantly perceive ourselves as hunters…
It is my opinion that all of us share some combination of these three basic reasons for hunting. For me, numbers two and three are more important than number one, but I do love some of the venison recipes that I’ve made and try to not be at all wasteful. But there is a unique situation that takes place around “bow only” types. It is the “I’m better than you because I decided to make it really tough on myself and you have not gotten to that point yet” thing. Problem with that is there’s always going to be a tougher way, and what does that mean? It means that we must face up to the fact that we don’t practice what we preach. If the mystical thing about the whole bow thing is the challenge, then why not go with the hardest one to shoot? Hardest to pull back, no sights, limited range, loud and so on? Well because we wouldn’t be as successful basically, right? I mean we do want a challenge and we do really want others to see how much of a challenge we’re making it, but to not come out with a deer, would be kind of, too hard? Too challenging?
The compound bow is somewhere between the traditional bows and the cross bow, as far as difficulty goes. The shotgun is somewhere between the rifle and the cross bow. The rife is somewhere between the shotgun and the grocery store meat isle. On the other end, the spear would be more challenging than the traditional bow, and a knife would be impossible, I guess…
So, all of you please raise your hands if you would hunt with a knife if it became legal in your area…

Not many hands…

Why is that? Because we all have a certain level of failure that we can tolerate when weighed against our own personal level of effort we’re willing to put forward.

One of my favorite ways to hunt is on the ground with a shotgun, stalking. My shotgun does have somewhat of a better range, but I’ve got to sneak into thick bedding areas to hunt this way, which is what I like. I’m partial to a shotgun and I’m not sure why. Maybe because I’ve practiced more with them than any other weapons, or it is just a crude open sight fire arm, I’m just not sure. But for ME being on the ground with a shotgun presents much more of a challenge than being in a tree with a bow. In fact I’d say that my shooting lanes in a tree stand with a bow are longer than any opportunities presented while sneaking on the ground with a shotgun. And our smell is on the ground, we’re moving/visually stimulating the deer and we’re making noise. Of course stalking with a bow would be more difficult, I’m not suggesting it wouldn’t be. I’ve done it, and toward the end of last year I got a small doe while on the ground with my left handed bow that I shoot right handed. I was disappointed. I’d been trying to pull that off for two years, and for some reason, it was a let down. I’m not really sure why.

Also, there is nothing wrong with buying and using something simply because you like it, and have no other reason. I like knives and I’ve bought more than I’ll ever need. Most people are this way about something. So what is wrong with liking a crossbow, even if you aren’t handicapped? Is a crossbow a little easier to shoot and hunt with, I’d have to say yes, and be willing to argue about it. But wouldn’t I be a fool to not be willing to look at it a level deeper and recognize that there are also harder ways to shoot and hunt than what I’m doing. Finally, unless you’re willing to say and believe that you are practicing the hardest hunting strategies, you have to flip the chip off of your shoulder.

Someone asked me what I thought was the best part of bow hunting. I explained it was for me; getting into the woods earlier, not wearing orange was pretty cool (hiding from humans) and no bang, like a silent killer. Then they asked what was the worst thing about it. They were a little shocked at my response; being mistakenly identified as a “bow only” type!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

BigTiny,

I have to admit, since talking to you guys, I changed my policy on crossbows and started allowing them. Initially, an ignorantly, I had a "no crossbows allowed" policy.

I updated my site within the last 24 hours and am now encouraging anyone with a crossbow to visit our place.But, oh yes...... there are strings attached! You gotta share some of that backstrap for dinner one night!!!Part of the deal! (Ha! Ha!)And dont worry about our ghost... he's friendly.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Dave for many of us we're compound users that feel better with an xbow because of many reasons. I was against them till they became legal. Then I bought one and found out first hand it's no free lunch. Many of the people against are ignorant of the true facts of xbow use. A lot have never even shot, let alone hunted with one. The bottom line is they for several reasons don't want others in bow season with an xbow. Sharing the seasons, game or space, or they feel they passed some initiation process and xbows cheat them or the sport. We've heard it all. After the first 3-D shoot I went to with the xbow if you don't know yardage you're still out of luck. And past 30-35 you better really know yardage. I'll challenge any anti-xbow person to take my xbow and show me some stuff with it on a 3-D course. It isn't going to happen.

That said we all feel it's little to no difference in it or a compound as far as range and deer harvest is concerned. Yes it's harder and takes a little more work to keep in perfect tune with a compound. Many of us physically do not feel like doing that any more or time doesn't permit. The xbow allows bow hunting and we're not out gunning the compound users. But it doesn't require quite as much upkeep to be fair to the game we hunt. Too bad many just can't see that. I saw many a "bow hunter" come in to the pro shop a week or less before opener with museum quality gear ready to go hunt. I hope that type of person might throw that stuff away and pick up an xbow. He's going to hunt with something you can bet that. At least he's going to have a better chance of a clean kill IMHO. To me the game we chase and final image of a hunter, even if it's not available for others to ever see, is what matters most. Most that have issues with xbows do not see the big picture. Maybe in time and as more people pound this stuff in they might figure it out. Glad to see open minded people looking at this with a fresh outlook.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

I'm from New Orleans, you just THINK you got ghosts!:)

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Hi Killer Primate, next time you get the chance,[link]http://www.atlatl.com[/link], when I can hunt with one of those, I'll stsrt talking trash!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

I am sorry, but I have to totally disagree with that statement above. The crossbow and the vertical compound is generally equal in the advantages which they give the hunters over the traditional bows (recurve or longbow .... but actually the crossbow is just as traditional as the other two, just look at the history of bows). These advantages are different, sometimes the crossbow will gove you a better advantage, and other times it would be the vertical compound which gives you the most advantages.

Before you say that you do not have to draw the bow back in the presence of the game, there are just too many hunters out there now that use either popup blinds or fixed shooting boxes (stands) where they are out of site to be able to really claim that fact. The claim that the crossbow uses a trigger, well a few years ago, I read an artical that over 80% of vertical compound shooters use a triggering release with their bow.

The use of the crossbow and the vertical compound would be listed as an equal as an hunting tool. The pros & cons of both equal out the advantages of each.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

When I said this I was trying to humble myself and give you the opportunity to say I was wrong. If you said I was wrong with this post, I was and am willing to say I misunderstood and say sorry in public forum. I amsorry this post was so confusing.

As to your question I answered it in the bottom of my first long post but copy it for you to see once again.


I will try and make this my last post. My good friend is giving me advice and maybe I have been working to much lately andstarting to speak a different language. Sorry that what I am saying is so confusing, but I thought I asked simple questions, but I guess I have not. Take care and enjoy.

Jason

Edit for spelling, sorry guys.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Hey guys please, please, please lets take this thread north rather than south. If we take one step back this could be an awsome thread.
Lets keep the battling in PM form for a change. Yeah me included! There is some intellegent exchange here and yes some minor insults but we could all do better!
Ok, let me put it this way. If you guys don't calm down you'll see me at your door with this killer beside me! Belive me guys, he's got some pretty mean friends too!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Jason: gotta tell ya I think you misread this guy. Looks to me like he just started an archery only pay to hunt thing in Texas and is trying to see if opening it to xbows will cost him part of the vert crowd.

Montana Dave: Read the other thread on bowhunting. Was amazed at the open mindedness from the vert crowd. Let me ask a few questions here. What organizations are against bowhunting?? Answer: PETA and HSUS. What organizations are against xbow hunting?? The list grows dramatically, includes P&Y [greatest threat to bow hunting] all the Bowsite forums, PBHS, ect. Some actually go so far as to try and get the current rules/regs repealed to omit xbows altogether. I'm guessing here, but am fairly sure I have it figured out. You are opening a new pay-to-hunt place for archery only.[GREAT] Your questions are to try and figure out if the vert crowd would shun your offer if you included xbows. Am I close here?? As I think you are coming to the conclusion that it's actually a very vocal minority that are opposed to xbows, it all comes down to much ado about nothing. Your thread here ran for about 10 pages as I type this, and basically only one xbower took exception/misunderstood you and your reasons. Those are far better odds than we normally deal w/.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

After I maid the last post I sent some pm's. Came back and found two of my most trusted sources confirming my PM to them and they have not had time to reply back yet to them yet. They are probably typing as I am typing this! LOL!!

With that being said and Dave not having a chance to post back I must say that to many people are seeing it the way I have not so me being a man of majority rules, I must say I am wrong.

Will say sorry to you Dave, in public that I must have misunderstood you from the beginning. Iam so used to being attacked by the vertical crowd I just placed you in it and started from there. I wish your new ranch the best of luck and sorry for the confusion I created!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Well Dave, how big a guy are ya????? All's well that ends well!!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Dave, if you don't come to the table I'll have to send this after you! Hey, don't worry you won't suffer very long!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Dnk you gotta love that killer dog,great looking pup,you can send him
down here anytime you want!;)

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Here's one tearing my finger off!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Ok guys here is my opinion...Forgot I dont have one..Here is one anyway....
I beleave that Dave's post was read in the wrong text,I understood the WHY but stayed on the side for the most part.
Dave do you know what Iam going to miss the most..NO!!!...Let me tell you,Iam going to miss crawling thru the thicket with my compound,Iam going to miss the instink(spl)of drawing up and letting the arrow fly with my Recurve,Iam going to miss the stalking thru heavy brush and the thicket thats what I will miss the most.
And now for the WHY part of Why crossbow.I want to keep hunting with the up close and personal feeling that I get with Archery....
Mybe someday I will be able to hunt with the Recurve/Longbow again but untill then the CB is the only way I can do this...

Buy the way Dave I think you a darn good guy.Being a yank from northern Mn maybe someday on my way down to Az I will get the opertunity to stop buy your ranch and hunt or say high...

PS...my spelling sux so you have to bear with me and it............

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

After 52 years of shooting bows-n-arrows - including a period where I was shooting, on a regular basis,longbows that drew well over 100pounds (young, dumb and strong as an ox)-my shoulders don't work so good any more. In fact, it hurts like hell to draw any bow any more. That's why I've gone crossbow. Not to mention that I can legally hunt with a crossbow 11 months of the year. 12 months with a letter from my doctor saying I have a disability that prevents me fromshooting a regular bow any longer.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Hotburn,

Your apology is unequivocally accepted, although not required. Please know that not only am I on your side, I am going WAYYYYYY out on a limb and allowing crossbows on my place- something nobody else does! With that comes the risk of alienating many of the hunters I started my archery-only ranch for in the first place!! But, hey- my ranch, right? (Ha! Ha!)

You sound very passionate about your sport! That is good. Before I accidently started this virtual s--tstorm, I knew nothing about crossbows! Now I am an expert! (Just kidding!) It will take me a while to learn more- but from the sounds of it, I will have plentyof time to spend with crossbow hunters at my place, judging by the pm's I got.

This has been as entertaining as informative, to say the least. I never knew you crossbow guys ware so passionate! (Ha! Ha!) Thats good though. Cant fault you for that.

I have in fact, had a paradigm shift about crossbows. I never questioned "why not", as crossbows are not allowed during most archery seasons. I just figured, incorrectly, that the laws were there for a reason. I am not sure about that anymore.

Best of luck to all and I hope you all get your buck this year!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Also, thanks Mods for letting this one go. I think everyone can agree it ended up being a great and informative thread.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Well Dave, how big a guy are ya????? All's well that ends well!!
[/quote]

A Roy D. Mercer quote! That's funny. My favorite quote from Roy D Mercer is "I'll come down there and mop the floor with ya, then kick your @$$ again for leavin' a waxy yellow buildup."

To all the crossbow users, don't feel too bad. I'm a compound shooter and I misread and misjudged Daves intent also. I felt even worse when I found out he was a fellow Navy man.
I just wanted to let you all know that not all "vertical" shooters think badly of crossbow shooters. I, along with many others, consider crossbow shooting "archery". Best of luck to all of you.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

This thread brings a tear to my eye..sniff..sniff..

The world is a changin!

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

LittleChief, most, if not all of us know and understand that not all vertical shooters are against the crossbows. Evidence from the states which have decided to include crossbows shows this as fact, as the crossbows have been accepted overwhelmingly. It is just the few, but most vocal that are causing the trouble (they think that they are the voice of everyone).

Little by little we are educating people about the truths on crossbows and more and more are realizing that crossbows are not at all what the ANTI's portray them to be.

Thanks for being understanding and supportive.

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

So you have Hogs moving in and awshucks wants to come and hunt? Well yer Hog population will remain the same. He has the worst luck i ever knowed about cept mine!:DMaybe if both of us come down fer several weeks we might get one between us.[:-]

RE: Why Crossbows????
 

Smoke and awshucks, hope you dont mind ghosts. (Ha Ha!)