Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
09-08-2002, 10:53 PM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
Forgiveness more than TRUE accuracy. If you have GREAT form, you will shoot a short bow just fine.
For hunting, I DON'T like too short of a bow, because you will often be in an imperfect position to shoot....that's where the forgiveness comes in.
I think brace height is most critical when considering follow through. and ATA when considering stability.
For hunting, I DON'T like too short of a bow, because you will often be in an imperfect position to shoot....that's where the forgiveness comes in.
I think brace height is most critical when considering follow through. and ATA when considering stability.
09-09-2002, 05:50 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
I pretty much agree with SF's comments though I tend to prefer bows between 32 and 34 inches inches in general. Their overall feel lends itself nicely to my shooting style.
Something else to consider that was not mentioned but is directly related to people's perceptions of a short axle to axle length bow is the bow's mass weight.
A very intelligent person once said that probably the best combination of attributes for a stable bow is a longer axle to axle length, long brace height and a heavy mass weight. This is very true and if that is all there is to it then we would all be shooting 42 inch, 9 inch brace height 5 lb (bare bow) bows. But the most stable shooting platform isn't always the most practical in the hunting woods. So, if I had to give up just one of those attributes then it would be axle to axle length. You can still shoot a 33 inch axle to axle length bow that weighs 4ish lbs and has a larger brace height. It will still be relatively forgiving and yet more practical for alot of hunting situations.
Something else to consider that was not mentioned but is directly related to people's perceptions of a short axle to axle length bow is the bow's mass weight.
A very intelligent person once said that probably the best combination of attributes for a stable bow is a longer axle to axle length, long brace height and a heavy mass weight. This is very true and if that is all there is to it then we would all be shooting 42 inch, 9 inch brace height 5 lb (bare bow) bows. But the most stable shooting platform isn't always the most practical in the hunting woods. So, if I had to give up just one of those attributes then it would be axle to axle length. You can still shoot a 33 inch axle to axle length bow that weighs 4ish lbs and has a larger brace height. It will still be relatively forgiving and yet more practical for alot of hunting situations.
09-09-2002, 07:35 AM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...we would all be shooting 42 inch, 9 inch brace height 5 lb (bare bow) bows.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
42"?? Why would we be shooting something that short, Frank?
Long axle to axle bows have a built in stabilizing effect that resists canting, either side to side or front to back. They have less string angle at full draw, so less nock pinch. If you'll look at an arrow nock when someone is shooting a short bow with their release hooked direct to the string, you'll see the effect string angle has. The string passes thru the nock at such an angle that the arrow is nearly off the string.
Higher brace height allows the arrow to leave the string sooner (Bow A has 8" brace, Bow B has 6" brace. Arrow leaves the string 2" sooner on bow A than on Bow B). So any bow torque you're getting has less time, or distance if you prefer, to work on the nock end of the arrow.
I will add deflex riser to the list. Deflex risers are harder to torque than reflexed risers. Period.
Round wheels don't kick the arrow out nearly as hard and fast as hard cams but are more forgiving. Compare a AA fuel dragster popping a hole shot vs Mom's Caddy going thru a green light. The dragster is fast, but unstable and you have to be right on top of the car or you're in the wall. The Caddy is very easy to control. Same thing with arrows. Slower is more controllable.
So, for the most forgiving bow possible, I'd want a deflex riser bow weighing around 4 pounds, 45" axle to axle minimum, 10" brace height and round wheels.
42"?? Why would we be shooting something that short, Frank?
Long axle to axle bows have a built in stabilizing effect that resists canting, either side to side or front to back. They have less string angle at full draw, so less nock pinch. If you'll look at an arrow nock when someone is shooting a short bow with their release hooked direct to the string, you'll see the effect string angle has. The string passes thru the nock at such an angle that the arrow is nearly off the string.
Higher brace height allows the arrow to leave the string sooner (Bow A has 8" brace, Bow B has 6" brace. Arrow leaves the string 2" sooner on bow A than on Bow B). So any bow torque you're getting has less time, or distance if you prefer, to work on the nock end of the arrow.
I will add deflex riser to the list. Deflex risers are harder to torque than reflexed risers. Period.
Round wheels don't kick the arrow out nearly as hard and fast as hard cams but are more forgiving. Compare a AA fuel dragster popping a hole shot vs Mom's Caddy going thru a green light. The dragster is fast, but unstable and you have to be right on top of the car or you're in the wall. The Caddy is very easy to control. Same thing with arrows. Slower is more controllable.
So, for the most forgiving bow possible, I'd want a deflex riser bow weighing around 4 pounds, 45" axle to axle minimum, 10" brace height and round wheels.
09-09-2002, 10:12 AM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 348
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
I do not think we can make positive claims about any bow characteristic in regards to "which is better". It is safe to say that just about everybody will shoot a bow differently. Therefore I think it can be concluded that longer axle length (for example) will work great for one person but not quite so well for another. Likewise one person might find shooting a short brace height more pleasing than the next guy.
I do however believe we can make generalizations based on common knowledge and facts. Longer brace height is generally more forgiving but will have slower arrow speed. Longer ATA is generally easier on those who use fingers rather than a release due to less string pinch but can be tougher to maneuver in the woods.
-Mike
I do however believe we can make generalizations based on common knowledge and facts. Longer brace height is generally more forgiving but will have slower arrow speed. Longer ATA is generally easier on those who use fingers rather than a release due to less string pinch but can be tougher to maneuver in the woods.
-Mike
09-09-2002, 10:38 AM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
Arthur P; You are the most. Keep it up and you will be my archery Guru. However, you did mimic one term made by the others that I too recklessly use, but in a cliché manner. That term is "forgiveness." There is no such animal as a bow that forgives a mistake or a maladjustment. Some bows are less sensitive to certain forces or a maladjustment, but never forgiving. Enter the toy bows and rad gear, sensitivity is a major consideration and can compound negative forces, mistakes and, maladjustment's.
Without hesitation, I have to go with you down the trail on everything else you have pointed out. You are "spot on." Those toy bows and all that radical gear had better be in the hands of a shooter that can always shoot robotic well, and able to shoot from a form (posture) that is not a perfect form, range or stand. Put the same gear in the hands of an average shooter, or a shooter who only shoots just before the season, you have a disaster in motion and one very frustrated person.
I do quite well with my 45" standard wheel and my 43" Sonic wheel, bows. The 45-incher is coming out of the chute at about 239 and singing to the 32-yard mark with nary a bobble. The 43-incher is busting out at 253, and running fast and straight as if attached to a rail. The shaft usually arrives well before the deer can leave the station.
Both pieces are in the 4 and 5 pound range, before attached gear. When I hold them at the vertical, they stand still and straight like a Marine standing inspection. When I fire those horses, they squat and hold position.
Soon, Kellogg will be putting hunting bows in their cereal boxes as a marketing tactic.
However, you did mimic one term made by the others that I too recklessly use, but in a cliché manner. That term is "forgiveness." There is no such animal as a bow that forgives a mistake or a maladjustment. Some bows are less sensitive to certain forces or a maladjustment, but never forgiving. Enter the toy bows and rad gear, sensitivity is a major consideration and can compound negative forces, mistakes and, maladjustment's. Without hesitation, I have to go with you down the trail on everything else you have pointed out. You are "spot on." Those toy bows and all that radical gear had better be in the hands of a shooter that can always shoot robotic well, and able to shoot from a form (posture) that is not a perfect form, range or stand. Put the same gear in the hands of an average shooter, or a shooter who only shoots just before the season, you have a disaster in motion and one very frustrated person.
I do quite well with my 45" standard wheel and my 43" Sonic wheel, bows. The 45-incher is coming out of the chute at about 239 and singing to the 32-yard mark with nary a bobble. The 43-incher is busting out at 253, and running fast and straight as if attached to a rail. The shaft usually arrives well before the deer can leave the station.
Both pieces are in the 4 and 5 pound range, before attached gear. When I hold them at the vertical, they stand still and straight like a Marine standing inspection. When I fire those horses, they squat and hold position.
Soon, Kellogg will be putting hunting bows in their cereal boxes as a marketing tactic.
09-09-2002, 11:49 AM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>Enjoyed the mental images your similes conjured up, C903.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I used the term 'forgiveness' because that's what most folks call it and seem to understand. But you probably know how it feels to have a bow that's pretty well magic and just WANTS to shoot straight for you. Providing you do most things pretty close to right, it will get the arrow where you want it to go. With my old ProVantage, I could make the most ungodly release flub possible and that arrow would still fly like a dart into the X at 60 yards.
I've been thinking about getting a HavocTec for concealed carry, but haven't figured out yet how to build a holster that would hide those pieces of conduit that I call arrows. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I used the term 'forgiveness' because that's what most folks call it and seem to understand. But you probably know how it feels to have a bow that's pretty well magic and just WANTS to shoot straight for you. Providing you do most things pretty close to right, it will get the arrow where you want it to go. With my old ProVantage, I could make the most ungodly release flub possible and that arrow would still fly like a dart into the X at 60 yards.
I've been thinking about getting a HavocTec for concealed carry, but haven't figured out yet how to build a holster that would hide those pieces of conduit that I call arrows. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
09-09-2002, 01:09 PM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
Conceal carry!
Recently, while in "Dick's" sporting goods with a friend, I observed a row of some of those toy bows hanging from some picture-frame hooks. I just had to pull one down to see what the rave is all about. Sadly, I saw that my old partner, Martin, is making some of those miniatures.
The first thing I noticed when I pulled one down, was I did not know whether I was supposed to hold the bow in my hand or between my thumb and forefinger. I opted for the grip but noticed I almost had a portion of the bottom of each limb in my grip.
The next thing I noticed was that there was a large wagon wheel on the bottom limb with a protruding spike. The consolidated shape of the wheel/spike resembled the head and bill of a flamingo. I thought; 'Well, when this bow blows up, one can always take off the bottom limb, weld the wheel and spike in place, and use it for a pick to remove weeds from the garden or dig a trench for drainage tile.'
Anyway, I thought I would give this baby bow a trial pull. First, I cleared the area of people in case the bow blew. I did not want a body count resulting from flying shrapnel. I then summoned my friend and a few employees to help pull the string to a rollover. Once we hit the rollover, I had them back away. As I was trying to see the sight pins over my grip, I found I had to keep opening my hand to confirm that the bow was still present and counted for.
After holding the bow for a few, I began to feel as if I was mistreating a child, so I let down. That is when it all happened. That %#@!! thing slammed the bolt so hard, it jerked my right arm out of its socket, ripped me cleanly out of my shoes, catapulted all 200 lbs of me the entire length of the store, out the door, and laid me prone in the parking lot.
Once I convinced the store security that I was not trying to steal the bow, that the bow, in fact, had committed unlawful restraint, he flicked the bow from my grasp, put the bow in his shirt pocket and walked back to the store. I stood, dusted myself off, wobbled to my truck and drove away.
The ONLY favorable thing I can say about my first and last experience with such a bantam and nasty little monster, is that I did not have far to walk to my truck from where I landed.
Recently, while in "Dick's" sporting goods with a friend, I observed a row of some of those toy bows hanging from some picture-frame hooks. I just had to pull one down to see what the rave is all about. Sadly, I saw that my old partner, Martin, is making some of those miniatures.
The first thing I noticed when I pulled one down, was I did not know whether I was supposed to hold the bow in my hand or between my thumb and forefinger. I opted for the grip but noticed I almost had a portion of the bottom of each limb in my grip.
The next thing I noticed was that there was a large wagon wheel on the bottom limb with a protruding spike. The consolidated shape of the wheel/spike resembled the head and bill of a flamingo. I thought; 'Well, when this bow blows up, one can always take off the bottom limb, weld the wheel and spike in place, and use it for a pick to remove weeds from the garden or dig a trench for drainage tile.'
Anyway, I thought I would give this baby bow a trial pull. First, I cleared the area of people in case the bow blew. I did not want a body count resulting from flying shrapnel. I then summoned my friend and a few employees to help pull the string to a rollover. Once we hit the rollover, I had them back away. As I was trying to see the sight pins over my grip, I found I had to keep opening my hand to confirm that the bow was still present and counted for.
After holding the bow for a few, I began to feel as if I was mistreating a child, so I let down. That is when it all happened. That %#@!! thing slammed the bolt so hard, it jerked my right arm out of its socket, ripped me cleanly out of my shoes, catapulted all 200 lbs of me the entire length of the store, out the door, and laid me prone in the parking lot.
Once I convinced the store security that I was not trying to steal the bow, that the bow, in fact, had committed unlawful restraint, he flicked the bow from my grasp, put the bow in his shirt pocket and walked back to the store. I stood, dusted myself off, wobbled to my truck and drove away.
The ONLY favorable thing I can say about my first and last experience with such a bantam and nasty little monster, is that I did not have far to walk to my truck from where I landed.
09-09-2002, 02:39 PM
#9
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
You're terrible! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
You know, that was almost the way I felt first time I drew a compound back in 77 or so. Never heard of the concept of 'letoff' before, and dang near ripped my shoulder to pieces when I hit that horrific 35% letoff. Didn't even touch one of those mechanized demonbows again for a couple of years.
But I do think the very short valley that a lot of single cams have, combined with the drastic jump from letoff to peak weight, is a killer on a bow's 'forgiveness' factor. That long dwell at peak is also a killer, especially at the end of a long day of 3D-ing. But, it's fast as blue blazes, you gotta admit that. And those little shorty bows are darned handy, light and maneuverable. Plenty accurate enough for putting an arrow in a critter's ribcage in a hunting situation.
I know I'm getting old and don't do much living on the raw edge anymore, but the gentle draw cycle and shooting characteristics of round wheel bows is SO much more pleasant to shoot. I would like to think a lot of people wouldn't mind giving up some of that speed if they just gave 'em a try.
You know, that was almost the way I felt first time I drew a compound back in 77 or so. Never heard of the concept of 'letoff' before, and dang near ripped my shoulder to pieces when I hit that horrific 35% letoff. Didn't even touch one of those mechanized demonbows again for a couple of years.
But I do think the very short valley that a lot of single cams have, combined with the drastic jump from letoff to peak weight, is a killer on a bow's 'forgiveness' factor. That long dwell at peak is also a killer, especially at the end of a long day of 3D-ing. But, it's fast as blue blazes, you gotta admit that. And those little shorty bows are darned handy, light and maneuverable. Plenty accurate enough for putting an arrow in a critter's ribcage in a hunting situation.
I know I'm getting old and don't do much living on the raw edge anymore, but the gentle draw cycle and shooting characteristics of round wheel bows is SO much more pleasant to shoot. I would like to think a lot of people wouldn't mind giving up some of that speed if they just gave 'em a try.
09-09-2002, 09:53 PM
#10
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Axle to Axle length and Brace Height?
What works better for some, hinders others.
I have a Martin Firecat XRG. Something like 44" ATA round wheels (excentrics), and a big brace. One of the best target bows ever.
Oddly enough, I have shot my best scores with my newer Stealth Force. Still a long (by todays standards) 39" ATA, and a 7" brace. But it has a MUCH smaller valley, and a SOLID back wall. For the way I shoot (BT with a Chappy Boss) I just shoot better with the Alpine. While it may sadden some to see such a legendary bow beaten by a new "toy" that's life. For now, the Firecat has become my fishing bow.
The accuracy I can get with my Alpine is better than I get with the Firecat...plain and simple. The fact that it shoots the same arrows about 55 fps faster (with 1" shorter draw) is mearly a bonus.
I have a Martin Firecat XRG. Something like 44" ATA round wheels (excentrics), and a big brace. One of the best target bows ever.
Oddly enough, I have shot my best scores with my newer Stealth Force. Still a long (by todays standards) 39" ATA, and a 7" brace. But it has a MUCH smaller valley, and a SOLID back wall. For the way I shoot (BT with a Chappy Boss) I just shoot better with the Alpine. While it may sadden some to see such a legendary bow beaten by a new "toy" that's life. For now, the Firecat has become my fishing bow.
The accuracy I can get with my Alpine is better than I get with the Firecat...plain and simple. The fact that it shoots the same arrows about 55 fps faster (with 1" shorter draw) is mearly a bonus.