The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I saw a post earlier about the void on a deer. It got me wondering what the concensus is on whether or not a void hit is fatal.

For those that don't know, the "void" is the area that supposedly lies between the top of lungs and the spinal column of a deer.

I realize we have had this conversation for the last 3-4 seasons, with some pretty heated debates. I can't remember how void non-believers felt about the fatality of the shot.

I've shot a few through the void that were never recovered. I always believed in the void, until I was shown the light on this website.

So, fatal or not? The shot itself, no infections, etc.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

oh, boy, here we go...:eek:

having no experience myself with the dreaded "void," "dead spot," whatever you want to call it, i can't say either way.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I don't know if this is the "average" case, but a buddy of mine shot a big ten last fall through the "no-man's land". He went to great lengths to find the deer over the next three days. He even hired a tandem para-sail pilot to take him over the area. There were a bunch of other people at the rental place that were interested in the situation, and they all tagged along. There was about 6 or 7 of them buzzing over the giant field where he lost the blood trail. All the effort was to no avail. Three weeks later he walked through that same field and basically followed his nose to the decayed remains of his 140" 10 pointer.

So at least in this case the shot was fatal, but not lethal enough to lead to recovery. I commended him for his effort in the search. Too bad it went to waste. [&o]

Edit: By the way, it was a clean pass-through with fixed blade heads.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Great question (I like the new sig by the way)

I've seen the anatomy pics of deer before and witnessed the heated discussions you talk about. IMO the void is more than likely a 1 lung hit and an animal with a strog will to live. I don't see how it's possible to shoot under the spine and not catch at least 1 lung.(It dosen't take a huge hole to deflate a lung either)

Maybe we can write into myth busters and see if we can get a scientific answer.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Call me crazy but I do believe there is a void and I believe many of the deer shot in the "void" will live.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Nothing is impossible, but I find it hard to believe you can hit a deer in the top of the chest and have it live. I would agree that it may be a one lung hit and the animal is not recovered. But it is a dead deer.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

There is NO void between the bottom of the spine and the top of the lungs.

In fact on a totally broadside shot the lungs are actually a bit higher than the bottom of the spine. (due to the upward curve of the ribs)

Many people do not realize how far down the spine really in the chest of a deer. I believe most people who think they hit a 'void' are really shooting OVER the spine. There is nothing vital over the spine, just meat and the spinous processes.

You know those hunting videos where the bucks are walking around with the little bald spots on their backs? That's the result of an over-the-spine shot.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Well I knew a guy that survived a one lung hit with a .357 (dead center) so I certainly wouldn't say it was impossible for a deer to do the same. JMO

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

If anything I think a deer has a stronger will to live then humans do.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Was he living in the woods trying to find food and water with the coyotes chasing him. Or did he go to the hospital and get it taken care of?

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

lol.... you can't be serious.....right!!!???

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

i have never seen a deer recovered that was shot in the void zone but if you manage to get the spine they wont go far.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I don't think there is a "void". I think people actually hit above the spine when they see this. The spine actually dips down 5-6 inches right behind the shoulder when the deer is standing, and I think that people hit this area thinking they shot just under the spine when they really shot over it.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I don't know what to think about the "void", but I always thought the bald spots were from fences and other low hanging obstacles!

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I absolutely agree........that and what Nuge said, it just so happens that the spine dips to it's lowest point pretty much in line with the "sweet" spot of the vitals below.
The reason shoulder shots with firearms are usually so devastating and drop the animal so quickly is because the spine sits low and behind the shoulder blades. That impact just shuts down everything.

I beleive we had a veterinarian on here the last time this topic got out of control, and he said that there is no "Void" anywhere in a deer's chest.......the plural cavity sits tightly against the spine.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I have seen 2 voids with my own 2 eyes. One was the scars and piece of scapula removed from a doe I shot. The other was the still healing hole and sliced inner loins on a buck that my dad had shot. Both shots had passed thru the chest cavity and right under the spine, one near the front behind the shoulders, and one at the last couple ribs.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Many people do not realize how far down the spine really in the chest of a deer. I believe most people who think they hit a 'void' are really shooting OVER the spine. There is nothing vital over the spine, just meat and the spinous processes.

I also agree with this theory and I don't believe any animal will live with both lungs collapsed. Just my opinion and I am not a vetrinarian, but I think the void could be a freak 1 lung hit from a wierd angle or a high shot that looked better than it really was. I always aim low, for the heart, to prevent this problem.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

You may be right about the spine being low but wouldn't that make "the void" above the spine. It's still there, still a place where you can make a non fatal hit that looks like it should be.

I hit the void (above or below the spine) last year on my biggest buck to date. Doesn't it always seem to be the biggest ever instead of that management doe. Anyway, looked for 3 days before giving up, didn't have any blood trail or anything. He got hit by a car 2 weeks later to the day.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I'm not gonna say there is or isn't a void. Three years ago I was hunting on a very cold morning and had lots of clothes on. I took a shot at a doe and my string hit my sleeve on my coat and i made a bad hit on the deer (now i wear a sock with the toes cut out to compress things when i have layered clothes on). Anyway I hit her back a little far and high but i'm sure i hit under the spine. I got a clean pass thru with fixed heads. found my arrow and there was almost nothing on it but fat and just a very little amount of blood. I spent alot of time looking for that deer and only found a couple of very tiny drops of blood. Never saw another sign of her...

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I just have to throw my two cents into this discussion...

My uncle hit a spike horn two years ago and hit him just under the spine. The deer actually fell down as if a spine hit and started flopping. When approaching the animal to finish him off he suddenly springs to his feet and runs off. We followed the blood trail for over a mile and finally lost him in a series of beaver ponds. We were sitting on a log trying to figure out where he might be and a dog started barking. It turned out a stray hound had trapped our spike in one of the beaver ponds and would not let him out of the pond. We managed to arrow him in the lungs and get him out of the pond, but after cleaning him out we discovered the body cavity had been punctured, but the lungs showed no visible signs of trama. I don't know what this means, but I really don't think we would have ever retrieved this animal without the help of that dog.

Do you guys think it makes a difference if the animals lungs are inflated at the time of impact on a shot like this ??????

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Follow this link.

http://home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Anatomy.html

It shows a fairly accurate depiction of the insides of a deer. At least of the deer that I've cleaned in my life. There is no void. What appears as a good hit is a marginal hit.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

The no-man's-land region that I have thought to exist is below the blue line that represents the spine and above the red line that I assume represents a main artery running near the top of the lungs (in the picture). I would think an arrow through the very top extremity of the lung(s), above the main artery would be less lethal than a direct hit through the center of the lungs. I don't think it's too far fetched to think that a deer could live through that if for some reason the bleeding was minimal. The no-man's-land that I have always thought of is most definitely not above the spine. According to that picture, a shot above the spine would be little more than a flesh wound, or a possible broken rib(s).

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Ditto. I have seen a deer that had a broadhead scar on both sides "in the void". And NO it wasn't over the spine. I believe it exists, regardless of what many say. Thats my opinion.

Maybe it's not really a "void", but more of a highly survivable spot.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Yeppers...I have seen it the last 2 season!!

Last year my buddy hit the dreaded spot and seen the deer almost 2 months later.

Year before, I hit one there and the deer was found over 2 months later, although he was dead, he hadn't been dead too long. I believe infection got the better of him once the cold weather hit!!

Not going to argue this thread anymore, I have given myself too many headaches over the last 2 years argueing this thread.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

I'll jump in on this. I thought that any arrow that went through a deer would eventually kill it. I thought that the "void" was BS. The I shot a small buck high over the vitals. I am not a fan of too much height so there was not much downward angle on this or many of my kills. I looked and looked and trailed that deer for over 200 yds until it crossed a small river onto posted property. I thought I'd lost the deer. Well, that was early October and in late November a small buck, I didn't know it was the same one, came in on another trail on the same property. I drilled it this time and it went down in sight. The previous wound was under the spine. It passed completely through the deer. The entrance wound was completely healed but a small thin scar, like the line of the blades on the broadheads was obvious. There was a bald spot about the size of an apple around the completely healed wound. The exit side had no bald spot but a scab over the same blade patter scar. The same was visable on the inside where the blade passed between two ribs. Just the cut lines no scar or scabs.

So, I guess it could happen. I don't think I checked the lungs for any scarring. I can say I passed through the deer, didnt hit the spine or any ribs, had minimal blood to trail on the first hit, but enough to go about 200 yards, and the deer appeared completely normal the second time around.

For what it is worth.

Greg

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Deer shot in the spine have lived too. Hmm, intresting topic. Almost as intresting as the ham shot talked about on another forum.

RE: The Dreaded Void, No Mans Land...????
 

Twice in my bowhunting life I have personally witnessed a deer run off with the arrow sticking out both sides of the animal, under the spine, and the deer was never recovered.

The first time this happened I watched the buck (with an arrow protruding from both sides) hang around a doe about seventy yards away in an open field, for at least a half hour to forty-five minutes. He showed no ill effects, never laid down, and was never found regardless of the lengthy search.

It really doesn't matter if a person labels it "no man's land", "Burmuda Triangle", "black hole", or a "void". The latter may not be anatomically correct however the fact remains that there is too much real evidence to deny that a small area exists under the spine, where, if hit, an animal could be lost or survive impact.

If a human can survive a knife being thrust down through the brain, with almost no ill effects, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to believe a whitetail can survive a passthrough in this area.