Speed - How do you measure it?
02-22-2002 | 10:34 PM
#21
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
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RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
What I've never been able to figure out is why AMO went to all the trouble to adopt a light arrow standard (60# @ 30" w/360 grain arrow) and then keep advertising IBO speed. Doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Why didn't the idiots go ahead and adopt 70/30/350 and have done with it?
Of course, if they had to test according to an actual ASTM specification, they couldn't fudge on their draw length in order to lie about their speeds, could they...
Of course, if they had to test according to an actual ASTM specification, they couldn't fudge on their draw length in order to lie about their speeds, could they...
02-22-2002 | 10:56 PM
#22
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,497
Likes: 0
From: Dover, PA USA
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
Twang where in your widest bud drinking dreams did you ever come up with that list!?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
2 right off the bat I'd completely reverse......
Mathews......NOT EVEN close (at least ones I've owned)
BowTech.....very close
Hoyt.....close
Where did you get your findings from?.....or are you just shootin' from the hip?
I had a Mathews Ultra Max, and a Feather Max......neither of which would shoot near their advertised speed, and that was with draw lengths that measured out 3/4" and 7/8" OVER respectively.
All the BowTechs I've owned have shot BETTER than their minimum advertised speed at very close to true draw lengths.......in fact my Mighty Mite was a hair UNDER the stated 30" and it STILL broke their rating!?
You are stating PARKER to be close?.....dude I believe Parker licenses their cam from BowTech....Am I missing something?
I DO agree with a few you listed......like HCA (MX-1 bows) not close.....and Darton CLOSE.
Were you just throwing darts at a board?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
2 right off the bat I'd completely reverse......
Mathews......NOT EVEN close (at least ones I've owned)
BowTech.....very close
Hoyt.....close
Where did you get your findings from?.....or are you just shootin' from the hip?
I had a Mathews Ultra Max, and a Feather Max......neither of which would shoot near their advertised speed, and that was with draw lengths that measured out 3/4" and 7/8" OVER respectively.
All the BowTechs I've owned have shot BETTER than their minimum advertised speed at very close to true draw lengths.......in fact my Mighty Mite was a hair UNDER the stated 30" and it STILL broke their rating!?
You are stating PARKER to be close?.....dude I believe Parker licenses their cam from BowTech....Am I missing something?
I DO agree with a few you listed......like HCA (MX-1 bows) not close.....and Darton CLOSE.
Were you just throwing darts at a board?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
02-23-2002 | 03:06 PM
#23
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,157
Likes: 0
From: Lehigh County PA USA
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
Matt,
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....I don't know where you get this stuff from...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I can't put together a list like Twang's because I haven't shot all of the bows in all of the companies lineups each year through a chronograph with IBO specs.
I don't think that 99% of the people in the United States can...and of that 1% (Big pro shops that carry multiple lines) I doubt that many of them would care to as long as they are making money.
I have had some bows from certain manufacturers meet (And actually exceed) their IBO specs while others from the same lineup wouldn't reach them even with an inch longer draw length!
I don't have any snappy conclusionary statements for everyone to read this time other than......don't believe everything that the manufacturers' tell you and take an open mind approach to each model...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.
Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/23/2002 16:29:19
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....I don't know where you get this stuff from...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I can't put together a list like Twang's because I haven't shot all of the bows in all of the companies lineups each year through a chronograph with IBO specs.
I don't think that 99% of the people in the United States can...and of that 1% (Big pro shops that carry multiple lines) I doubt that many of them would care to as long as they are making money.
I have had some bows from certain manufacturers meet (And actually exceed) their IBO specs while others from the same lineup wouldn't reach them even with an inch longer draw length!
I don't have any snappy conclusionary statements for everyone to read this time other than......don't believe everything that the manufacturers' tell you and take an open mind approach to each model...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.
Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/23/2002 16:29:19
02-23-2002 | 04:10 PM
#24
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore Maryland USA
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
What just happened here proved my points. One person is saying "close" while the other is saying "not even close" about the same bow company.
As I stated in the beginning of this thread "Bow/arrow speed is a relative issue and, like many things in life, should be measured by a standard when comparing different manufacturers". I will even add to this statement that the speeds of bows will vary even within a manufacturer's line of bows; and, from manufacturer to Dealer to another Dealer, etc.
So the big question would always be "FAST, compared to what?" One person's 300 fps, using their technique and test equipment, could very well be 290 or 310 when tested by someone else.
What's the point, you may ask. One point is that speed, a totally relative issue, is used too much in this industry as a sales tool. The concern should be more on the shootability of the bows, form factors, and better education of some of those who are supposed to be guiding others.
This gets right back to statements that I made earlier: "Other points that have to be considered in this equation are the brace height and cam design. Some of the vary fast cam designs make for a great lower poundage 3D bow but can rip at your shoulder in a higher poundage hunting situation. Couple this with too long a draw length and you could be doing some permanent damage to your body.
I didn't post this to be critical of anyone's equipment or choices. I see these problems all the time in my shop and it gets depressing, seeing customers who really enjoy the sport, getting frustrated and developing personal injury because they're over-bowed." And a lot of these problems relates to ADVERTISED SPEED and the apparent quest for the best(speed that is).
Now don't misunderstand me, speed quest is something that can be good. It pushes the technology to its limits and makes the manufacturers seek higher levels. Auto racing has been a Godsave for the lives of many today because of developed safety measures; but, the speeds they achieve are reserved for those who can really handle it and not for John Q. Public.
Bottom line is, don't let speed be your deciding issue on the purchase of your next bow. Choose what you can handle and choose something that you can enjoy for years without inviting personal injury.
Speed - How do you measure it? - is the title. I guess the subject goes well beyond what I originally intended.
Thank you for letting me get up on this soapbox and I hope some of you share my concerns.
As I stated in the beginning of this thread "Bow/arrow speed is a relative issue and, like many things in life, should be measured by a standard when comparing different manufacturers". I will even add to this statement that the speeds of bows will vary even within a manufacturer's line of bows; and, from manufacturer to Dealer to another Dealer, etc.
So the big question would always be "FAST, compared to what?" One person's 300 fps, using their technique and test equipment, could very well be 290 or 310 when tested by someone else.
What's the point, you may ask. One point is that speed, a totally relative issue, is used too much in this industry as a sales tool. The concern should be more on the shootability of the bows, form factors, and better education of some of those who are supposed to be guiding others.
This gets right back to statements that I made earlier: "Other points that have to be considered in this equation are the brace height and cam design. Some of the vary fast cam designs make for a great lower poundage 3D bow but can rip at your shoulder in a higher poundage hunting situation. Couple this with too long a draw length and you could be doing some permanent damage to your body.
I didn't post this to be critical of anyone's equipment or choices. I see these problems all the time in my shop and it gets depressing, seeing customers who really enjoy the sport, getting frustrated and developing personal injury because they're over-bowed." And a lot of these problems relates to ADVERTISED SPEED and the apparent quest for the best(speed that is).
Now don't misunderstand me, speed quest is something that can be good. It pushes the technology to its limits and makes the manufacturers seek higher levels. Auto racing has been a Godsave for the lives of many today because of developed safety measures; but, the speeds they achieve are reserved for those who can really handle it and not for John Q. Public.
Bottom line is, don't let speed be your deciding issue on the purchase of your next bow. Choose what you can handle and choose something that you can enjoy for years without inviting personal injury.
Speed - How do you measure it? - is the title. I guess the subject goes well beyond what I originally intended.
Thank you for letting me get up on this soapbox and I hope some of you share my concerns.
02-24-2002 | 03:36 AM
#25
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: Peach Grove Kentucky
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
I hear a lot about Mathews "extra" draw length, but my Feather Max measures what it should according to the AMO standard. It's also within a few fps of advertised IBO speed, if you factor in the speed I lose with the 29" cam compared to the IBO standard 30".
I don't care to challenge anyone else's findings about Mathews draw length & speed. My "testing" doesn't prove that Mathews is always right on the money, just that my particular bow happens to be pretty close.
I don't care to challenge anyone else's findings about Mathews draw length & speed. My "testing" doesn't prove that Mathews is always right on the money, just that my particular bow happens to be pretty close.
02-24-2002 | 04:47 PM
#26
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,051
Likes: 0
From: Jackson, Missouri
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
Good post, Ky Headhunter.
Len: But shouldn't speed comparisons come out with the exact same results regardless of who is performing it? I mean, as long as all the parameters of the test are kept consistent (and this may be what you're saying varies from tester to tester), it shouldn't matter who pulls the trigger. If the parameters weren't the same, then we can hardly term it an evaluation worth mentioning in terms of comparison.
Len: But shouldn't speed comparisons come out with the exact same results regardless of who is performing it? I mean, as long as all the parameters of the test are kept consistent (and this may be what you're saying varies from tester to tester), it shouldn't matter who pulls the trigger. If the parameters weren't the same, then we can hardly term it an evaluation worth mentioning in terms of comparison.
02-24-2002 | 05:16 PM
#27
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
From: calgary alberta canada
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
I figure speed can vary person to person. Isn't it when the arrow is traveling through the centre of the bow you get the most performance? IMO shooting release. What if that person or person's have bad form then the ocilation of the bow from torque, or string can cause slower results. Also, differences in arrow make up, aluminum vs carbon. Even @ the same weights and spine, the carbon will travel faster then the aluminum. Why? because its very simple engineering the straighter the line of travel the faster the exelleration and probably top speed. While the aluminum arrow's tail is kicking out its most definetly losing speed and the carbon's straighter flight affords it more speed. Like Len has said, relative issue. Im not a super physics genius, but its easy to see differences that may cause speed variances. I shoot arrows from my recurve, maybe going 180-190's area. When I shoot a bow doing 230 or even 250 its like greased lightning to me, geez I can't imagine myself shooting 270's-80's. I just figured I would throw in my few small change, thoughts. Good shooting all.
Dylan
>>>>--------o-->
Dylan
>>>>--------o-->
02-24-2002 | 07:18 PM
#28
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore Maryland USA
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
MQ1shooter: Would you really trust your local gas station in giving you 1 gallon of gas and not short-changing you 10% at a time??? It's like asking the fox to guard the chicken coup.
I'm definitely believe that a majority of manufacturers are very honest. I think most of them are. The problem, however, it that without standards (as you have at the gas pumps) you open up the possibility for the "bad guys" to rob and cheat.
Although it's done this way right now and will continue, allowing manufacturers to TELL YOU what their bows will do, as far as speed, is like giving all your money to a stranger to invest. So many expensive, and some inexpensive items, that we purchase on a daily basis are controlled by standards like US Dept. of Standards, UL, US Weights and Measures (which I think may be part of US Dept. of Standards), US Food and Health, Surgeon General's Office, etc., etc., etc.
What you're asking is if everyone sends their arrow weighing equipment in for standards checking, is their chronograph calibrated and to what standard, are they using the same style arrow, is their bow scale calibrated, is the bow they actually test arbitrarily pulled from a production line or selected as the "best" of a run. Do they polish the axles, select a string that has less strands for more speed, set the draw length 1/4, 1/2 or 1" longer than what it should be????
Who is performing the test makes all the difference in the world. You said it best in your last sentence: "If the parameters weren't the same, then we can hardly term it an evaluation worth mentioning in terms of comparison".
I'm definitely believe that a majority of manufacturers are very honest. I think most of them are. The problem, however, it that without standards (as you have at the gas pumps) you open up the possibility for the "bad guys" to rob and cheat.
Although it's done this way right now and will continue, allowing manufacturers to TELL YOU what their bows will do, as far as speed, is like giving all your money to a stranger to invest. So many expensive, and some inexpensive items, that we purchase on a daily basis are controlled by standards like US Dept. of Standards, UL, US Weights and Measures (which I think may be part of US Dept. of Standards), US Food and Health, Surgeon General's Office, etc., etc., etc.
What you're asking is if everyone sends their arrow weighing equipment in for standards checking, is their chronograph calibrated and to what standard, are they using the same style arrow, is their bow scale calibrated, is the bow they actually test arbitrarily pulled from a production line or selected as the "best" of a run. Do they polish the axles, select a string that has less strands for more speed, set the draw length 1/4, 1/2 or 1" longer than what it should be????
Who is performing the test makes all the difference in the world. You said it best in your last sentence: "If the parameters weren't the same, then we can hardly term it an evaluation worth mentioning in terms of comparison".
02-24-2002 | 07:23 PM
#29
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: Pittsburgh PA USA
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
I was waiting for that response...
Sadly... so many bows are sold each day to unaware, relatively new buyers who will never be able to reach advertised speeds because of their 27 inch draw length.
-DT
Sadly... so many bows are sold each day to unaware, relatively new buyers who will never be able to reach advertised speeds because of their 27 inch draw length.
-DT
02-24-2002 | 09:13 PM
#30
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,051
Likes: 0
From: Jackson, Missouri
RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
Len,
I whole-heartedly agree with your assertion that too many manufacturers would be (are?) tempted to "cook the books" when obtaining this data.
My point -- or question, really -- was about finding differences using the same equipment, not different "specimens" of the same model.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>One person's 300 fps, using their technique and test equipment, could very well be 290 or 310 when tested by someone else. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is what I thought you were referring to: testing the same equipment. I now see you were talking about manipulating the same type of equipment to better suit each manufacturers' wishes and goals.
Make sense? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I whole-heartedly agree with your assertion that too many manufacturers would be (are?) tempted to "cook the books" when obtaining this data.
My point -- or question, really -- was about finding differences using the same equipment, not different "specimens" of the same model.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>One person's 300 fps, using their technique and test equipment, could very well be 290 or 310 when tested by someone else. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is what I thought you were referring to: testing the same equipment. I now see you were talking about manipulating the same type of equipment to better suit each manufacturers' wishes and goals.
Make sense? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>