Speed
 

I got back into archery about 4 years ago. I hadn't shot since then since I was kid. I really love it and there is nothing more I would rather be doing. But there is one thing I don't understand and maybe I could get some input on. Why the need for speed? Or should I say...so much speed? It seems to be all that guys are into when it comes to shooting. When I decided to get a new bow, my dealer intorduced me to a bow that was super fast compared to what I was used to shooting. Plus he talked me into switching to carbons to increase my speed. He seemed to be pumped up on the speed thing. What I found out was that it wasn't for me and going to a faster shooting bow hurt me because it was less forgiving. A mistake made with my old bow might only be 1/2 or 1/8 in. off. With this faster one, we're talking a couple of inches off maybe even a complete miss if I make a big mistake with it. My scores dropped big time on the range along with my confidence. I can shoot it now, but it took alot of practice time. I'm nowhere near what I used to shoot on the ranges but it is becoming more comfortable to me. I just don't understand the need to shoot something so fast. If you want that much speed, why not just use your rifle? After all, isn't archery 10% equipment and 90% mental any how? I was just curious and wondering what other people thought about it. Thanks for your input.

RE: Speed
 

cuz this big speed and KE groupies go hand in hand! Its 2 things that are easily measured.....to bad its only a part of the total package and probably more so to a lesser extent then other factors when it comes to bowhunting. I can understand it however for those solely target shooting where missing a range estimation could cost a pretty penny VS in a hunting situation where it would mean the difference between a heart shot, lung shot, or hopefully a clean miss and the only thing lost is a persons ego!

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I can only tell you this...Kenetic energy is more vital than your actual speed..Someone shooting at 300fps will have no advantage over someone shooting 265fps..Yes one is faster...But in the real scheme of things..I will take either one..When that buck steps out at 25 or 30 yards...25fps or so will not be that big of deal...If however, you are shooting in tournaments..fps is important...ASA rules and TBO limit the speed your bow can be..Hope I helped you some..LOL...I know it can be confusing..

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There's a whole bunch of us that are wired up for speed. Yep, my longbow shoots about 180<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Ke and speed are just to easily measured items! Look at the formula for Ke in itself and then ask a physics major whats going to push and arrow through bones and heavy tissue. Ke is good, speed is good, but there is more to the scheme of things!

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Bowhunter30, I suffered the same culture shock when I had to give up my longbows and get back into compounds. Hadn't shot a compound in about 8 years and EVERYTHING had changed. Back then, most everyone still shot fingers and 44&quot; was a short bow. Now everyone shoots release and 44&quot; bows are rare as hens' teeth. Back then, 500 grains was a normal hunting weight arrow. Now it's considered a log.

I tried the speedy stuff and, like you, found out it's not for me. I've gotten hold of a couple old bows and I'm snooping the second hand stores for more. I'm shooting 500 grain arrows and using my God given fingers to shoot with.

I want to shoot arrows that go where I aim them from bows that are pleasant to draw and shoot. That's all I need. But, I don't want to have to take a second mortgage on the house to do it. A new bow like I want priced out at $750 for Pete's sake!!

The other guys can brag all they want about the numbers they can put up on a chronograph. That's just not my idea of fun.

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Hey Arthur, I am buying back one of my &quot;old&quot; bows...an XI Paragon...42.5 inch axle to axle, 7.5 inch brac height, &quot;smoother than most&quot; TAC cams.... 5 lb bare bow weight....sound familiar?...and if I crank the limbs all the way down and shoot a really light carbon arrow with my draw length then it might do 260 fps....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....

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<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Been there, done that, Frank. Got the T-shirt!

I'm dragging out my ol' Hoyt ProVantage Rocket for a club shoot this afternoon. 70#, 50% letoff, Control Cams.

It's a tad short for fingers shooting for me at 32&quot; draw. I haven't chrono'd it, but it's pretty quick shooting these 32 1/2&quot; 2315's. I'd hate to put Bemans on the thing because of it's age, but it is tempting! It's the hardest hitting bow I've shot in awhile.

Got a real goodie I'm looking to get fixed up for my draw length. Old Martin Firecat, 50 pounder. It'd be the cat's meow for shooting a little NFAA barebow. I haven't been able to find any old Martin wheels that are big enough though.

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Well let's see, I still have my Lazer Magnum(49 inches axle to axle) rigged up down on the bench. Now there's a burner for you.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>NOT!!!! A boy can never have too much speed. Everyone says they don't worry about it, but it's the second thing they measure on their bow... the first being poundage. Well, with todays bows it is important. Yes I know slow and steady wins the race and all that BUT.... these light weight, short axle to axle one cams were built on the philosophy of getting more speed. If they weren't we'd still be shooting recurves or dual wheels like my Lazer Magnum. Yes speed is only a part of the KE formula.... but it has the greates multiplier in the formula. A few extra feet changes KE more than a few extra grains of weight. I don't know where people came up with this it's not KE that kills and penetrates... because it really is. If you have the KE and a decent broadhead you don't have to worry about penetration. IT IS what drives the arrow thru the meat and bones. Speed simply IS the biggest multiplier or KE and IS the most important part of the formula and DOES make a difference. NO, I'm not saying you have to have 300plus feet per sec. You just got to optimize your bow for the best KE and FLIGHT and with todays light weight bows that's speeding it up.

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All true, David. But I haven't seen a 150 fps arrow from a selfbow kill a deer any less dead than they die with a 300 fps arrow. Deer aren't particularly impressed by chronograph readings and you still gotta put the arrow in the right spot.

You talk about optimizing your KE and arrow flight. Okay. I can do that with heavy arrows, which absorb somewhat more energy from the bow and transfer it to the target than a light, fast arrow (albeit at a slower speed). My heavy arrows fly perfectly true, just with slightly higher trajectory than a light arrow. Inside 30 yards, the trajectory difference between a 400 grain arrow and a 500 grain arrow is maybe an inch or so.

You should hear the difference in bow noise between my 450 grain Bemans and my 530 grain 2315's from my single cam bow. You should feel the difference in vibration. I don't need shock absorbing accessories with the heavy arrows.

I can judge yardage. I like smooth drawing bows that shoot a reasonably heavy arrow at a reasonable speed and do it quietly and without shock.

I like to see my arrow in flight and track it all the way to the target, be it paper, foam or fur. That's the most important thing for me about shooting a bow. I ENJOY it. I read an article by a psychologist once that referred to that as 'the ecstacy of anticipation.'

I enjoy shooting archery. That is the area I concentrate on optimizing. A lot of people are missing out on that enjoyment because they're constantly wrestling with their equipment. Always trying to optimize performance, getting frustrated and forgetting that they're supposed to be having fun. It could be one reason why bowhunting's popularity is dropping off.

Some folks can't judge yardage for beans and may do better with a fast bow. That's fine... up to a point. Some of these bows are so fast that the shooter couldn't tell you where he hit an animal if he had to. Bad situation for determining how, and when, you're going to begin trailing.

I can give you a thousand reasons for shooting slower setups with heavier arrows. I can only give you one or two to shoot light and fast.

Of course, I've often been told I need to get with the times and quit being so old fashioned. I just don't see any reason to.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Speed
 

Just don't forget the MOST important thing. Accuracy! Some of these speed bows have short axel to axel lengths low brace heights and aggresive cams. which are fine for someone who shoots alot and has good form. But they are not as forgivng as longer brace heigth slower bows with smoother cams. For the person who does'nt shoot alot or is new to the sport, I would say go with the smoother bow. A couple of guys at our club got new speed bows and got discuraged because their accuracy went down. They smoked a lot of arrows outside the kill zone. Luckily there are alot of bows today that are a pretty good comprimise bwtween speed and accuracy.

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So far I don't have any problem shooting my speed bow as you guys are classifing it. I shot a BT Pro38 dual cam. Just yesterday I was playing around shoting 50 and 60 yrd shots and only one out of at least 15 shots hit out side the kill zone and it was a 1&quot; low. But for a speed bow it has a tall brace of 6.8 and the ata of 37.5 and enough mass weight for it to fell good and stable. The only thing that reminds you it is a fast bow is the heavier than normal draw curve and the very short valley.

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sorry Dave..I am of the momentum groupies. Yes speed is the first thing we measure..why? Cuz all things rely on it to some extent. But having an equation that relies 2/3rds on one thing and harly at all for the other. Also looking at down range...it isnt KE that keeps it going, its momentum! Kinda the big truck little car crash theory!

RE: Speed
 

sorry Dave..I am of the momentum groupies. Yes speed is the first thing we measure..why? Cuz all things rely on it to some extent and its the simplist to measure! But having an equation that relies 2/3rds on one thing and hardly at all for the other. Also looking at down range...it isnt KE that keeps it going through a moose rib, its momentum! Kinda the big truck little car crash theory! That has been proven time and time again up here with the fellas trying to shoot super light's and smack bones where as my super slow heavy weights busted one on the way in and nicked one on its way out!

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Whats a chronograph?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>I don't measure my speed. I'll take a 250 fps quiet setup over a 300fps noisey setup for hunting anyday.

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I can't explain the speed thing but I got it. It's the techie part of archery/bowhunting. I have two set-ups. One for hunting and one for target and 3-d. My hunting rig is set-up with 4&quot; feathers and 7-8 gr. per inch arrow. With that set-up I get more energy plus I'm not worried about shooting over 25-30 yds. My 3-d set-up is 5 gr.per inch and I'm more concerned with FOC cause I'm shooting much longer distances. Both set-ups are with carbon arrows. I found carbons are less critical to spine and more durable. My accuracy seems to stay the same regardless of my set-up or speed. That's the nice thing about this sport. You can go in what ever direction you choose or enjoy it all for different situations. I even shoot a little trad for fun but I'm always thinking compound and speed. JERRY

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RE: Speed
 

I've been in this discussion before and I have done some testing with my own bow and found one thing to be absolutely true.


Speed,weight,ke,momentum mean absolutely nothing when compaired to a properly setup arrow.



I took a 495 gr arrow at 238 and compaired it to my 356 gr arrow at 268 and they were the same arrow,I filled the 1 with water and put a 125 gr point on it to keep foc around 10%.The 356 gr outpenetrated a piece of wood with a 75 gr point better than the heavy but when I put the 125 gr point on the light arrow it sucked as compaired to the heavier arrow,put the light point on the heavy arrow and it sucked with penetration.Yes the arrows tuned exactly the same because I was using the Nitro Stingers that spine from 60-100#.The heavy arrow always had more momentum and more ke but did not always do better but the differences were usually very minor except for when I used a 75 gr point on the heavy arrow and the foc was way low.


The key is to have a well balanced arrow that is spined right and a bow that you can shoot accurately.Penetration will be fine.Concentrate on the arrow setup and the tune of the bow more than anything.I would suggest to stay in the parameters that the AMO gives and everyone should be fine. www.bowjackson.com has them listed.

For the record ,speed is overrated,even in the 3d game.I shoot 268 to hunt and 3d and most bows today can achieve that and they don't have to be raticall.


I shot today from the money stake and shot 12 up and was tied for 2nd when I left and the person that I was tied with was shooting 280 and this was an IBO shoot counting center 12's.That is pretty slow for IBO.


Just what I have found to be true for me and my bow and your bows may be completely different.

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I wonder what kind of hydraulics were going on inside that water-filled arrow, TFOX. :)

I'm glad to see others don't care that much for speed. Seems all everyone ever talks about is speed these days, and nobody ever hears about the other side of the coin. And some people seem to get defensive when people do start talking about that other side.

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RE: Speed
 

how many of you guys ever had a deer &quot;jump&quot; the string at 20 or 25 yds? its been my exprience that at 300 fps they dont have time before the arrow is in and out (just an observation from one guy)<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Ohhhh, I can hear the &quot;speed of sound vs. speed of the fastest arrow&quot; post coming up....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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There is always a trade off to an advantage and speed is no different. There are situations where speed is a very relevent and desired commodity but it can also be a hindrance under certain shot circumstances. I could be way off base here, but I think the site is the reason why speed is becoming more and more necessary. It does make pin point accuracy at known distances more possible, but it also makes shooting at unknown distances difficult because the site overrides the minds natural ability to calculate everything for us and this is why the bows are getting faster and faster. They are trying to compensate for the yardage miscalculations of the archer.

RE: Speed
 

Well if you want both get a Darton Maverick express. I have never shot so well with any bow. It is a joy to shoot and very easy to shoot well with. My accuracy went way way way up when I switched from my old retired bow the Browning Mirage SL hunter. I was way slower and I just couldn't shoot it as good As I do now. Soon as I switched to this bow I was able to way outshoot the old bow by a big margin. I am also blessed that is bow is pretty fast which I like. I shoot 292 fps with 65 lb draw and 400 gr arrows. I get 280 fps with 444 gr arrows at 65 lbs too. So if you want both check the Darton Maverick out as you can eat your cake too. Just a happy Maverick owners opinion.

Brian

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Double post - sorry

Edited by - stealthycat on 02/20/2002 12:12:31

RE: Speed
 

bowhunter30 - I eventually migrated away from that train of thought - the need for speed. My best setups were shooting relatively heavy arrows at around 240-250 FPS. I got great flight, they were forgiving and hit hard.

What matters is accuracy. Speed over a certain barrier creates a trade-off for accuracy and thats the point archers need to find with their setups and learn I think.

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Arthur - great point!
&quot;A lot of people are missing out on that enjoyment because they're constantly wrestling with their equipment. Always trying to optimize performance, getting frustrated and forgetting that they're supposed to be having fun. It could be one reason why bowhunting's popularity is dropping off.&quot;

That's the main reason I'm going back to the old recurve and new longbow. It's just too much fun without the worries.

RE: Speed
 

Bow confidence is the essential thing. If you shoot a compound and you are comfortable you can hit your target, you win! Speed is just another element. Mass times Acceleration. Juice up the acceleration and you have probably lost something in comfort and accuracy with your shot.
Ever had a deer walk in front of you and you felt relaxed enough not to have to pull on your bow with all your might?

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ArthurP: You &quot;need to get with the times and quit being so old fashioned.&quot; HeeHee Just couldn't resist. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I posted a thread here about speed and was discussing how this quest for speed might just cause some personal injury. This bothers me because we may loose some archers for life because of it.

Limb design and caming innovations have made more speed readily available without suffering or sacrificing what we had years ago. What we have to do, however, is be willing to forego that amount of speed and pain which depletes accuracy. This is hard for some to do but, sooner or later, most will learn it the hard way.

Like TFox, my equipment, and I personally, can shoot WELL over 300 fps; but, I keep it around 270 for hunting and 3D. 270 is more than enough for normal hunting distances and suffices very well for any 3D course.

Yes, a slower bow may be the choice for many for many reasons; but, give me a faster bow that can be handled as well as that slower bow so that I can throw a heavier arrow at the same speed. Davidmil can attest to the devastation of a well-tuned heavy arrow out of a smooth and quiet fast bow.

RE: Speed
 

Len, you've taken a stake and pounded right into the heart of the matter. My 1988 Hoyt Provantage Tracer, 80 pounds/33&quot; draw, would shoot a 33 1/2&quot; 2216 right at 225 fps. My 1999 Hoyt MagnaTec, 60 pounds/33&quot; draw, would shoot that same arrow right at 225 fps. Identical performance with 20 pounds less draw weight!

My aching shoulders love that aspect of speed technology.

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ArthurP: See there, 1999 MagneTec!!! You've almost made into the 21st century. [D)]<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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LEN'S PICKIN' ON ME!!!!

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I'm not a believer in blistering speed, as form is so critical for consist accuracy. on the other hand, I like it to get there fairly quick. All my bows tune out to between 225-240FPS, @ 60lbs 28.5&quot;, with a 435 grain 2213 arrow. I would guess this to be fairly typical hunting bow performance. I think a well tuned arrow and shaving sharp broadheads are more important than big speed. It's interesting to note that Ted Nugent kills everything under the sun with bows in the 55 lbs/185 fps range...

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I think Norb Mullaney told me he only shot about 53# when he went to Africa. I think he normally hunts &lt;50#.

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Speed sells.

Naw, I'm not gettin into that speed of sound thing again.

ArtP hit it right. A deer is no less or no more dead no matter what kills it a longbow or a single cam. Technology has added some grand innovations to archery, speed being one of them. With speed you can set your pins closer together for the range, the effects of distance mis-estimations are diminished.

Oh, your mechanial broadheads might open better(they had to find something else for that speed to do), but a dead duck is a dead duck is a......


Whatever you choose, choose wisely.......

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ok listen to the cops SPEED KILLS...LOL

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hey Ron, so just how bad is it when that 350fps carbon arrow rips through you back stop at work LMAO!

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why do you think i got a deeper target...lol

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lol!!!