lol probably the way my season went.

SA,

I respect that opinion but it's just that, your opinion. I don't have the slightest little inkling of an urge to hunt with anything other than my compound with it's "new fangled gadgets". I have no doubt that for you the greatest sense of satisfaction comes from killing animals with tradittional equipment. However, I get personal satisfaction from knowing that I am setup with the equipment that I am most proficient with and that gives me the best chance of cleanly harvesting any animal that I choose to take. We're all different. If everyone took satisfaction from the same things not only would this world be a boring place but we wouldn't be able to hunt without a person in every other tree, because all 280 million Americans would all be bowhunting etc. I personally don't care what anybody hunts with (including a crossbow) and I have trouble understanding how others feel like they have the right to judge another individuals actions so long as they are legal and ethical.

It's hard to say this without sounding confrontational but maybe if you didn't worry so much about what others did and just worried about what you do, it wouldn't be an issue. I don't have that problem because I feel like anything that gets people into bowhunting is a good thing. I think as bowhunters we have a responsibility to pass on ethics but not to look down on or judge people for having a different perspective on the sport.

Arthurp,

Although we do tend to disagree I do respect what you have to say. However, I think there is a difference between sticking your handout and cramming it down someones throat. A little understanding of the fact that there is infact more than one way to skin a cat, would go a long way. I think everyone that reads the forum regularly knows your stance on the subject. However, some of us are doing just fine with are "mechanized" equipment and we are pretty happy with it and we get tired of hearing there is only one way to do things and it's this way. I personally have never told a trad that they were unethcial because they had an apple size group at 20 yards (or anything else for that matter). I think it's great if you shoot that way and your good enough at it to kill game consistently and that's what you enjoy doing. I just don't want to do it that way and I think my results speak for themselves as do many other archers that shoot "contemporary" equipment.

Speaking of getting it crammed down your throat...

What happens with every newbie that goes into a shop and buys a bow? Does the guy behind the counter tell the newbie he can buy a $15 flipper rest and a $5 tab and get pretty darn good with that bow, does he? Hell no he doesn't! He starts slapping all kinds of accessories down on that counter at $35 to $150 a pop and telling the poor sucker that he needs every bit of that stuff.

I find it rather odd that I would be accused of trying to ram my viewpoint down everyone's throat in view of standard operating procedure at the pro shops. Don't you?

Did I ever say people can't do fine with mechanized equipment? NO! What I've been saying all along is, "there is more than one way to skin a cat." I happen to think my way is less expensive and a lot less frustrating. Problem is, it's not as profitable for the pro shops and I think that is what is getting me into hot water with a lot of folks on this site.

I have been around the buisness for a while now and let me tell you - 90% of the people newbie or not that I see - don't want the 10 flipper Arthur - they want nice stuff. Whether or not it works better is a mute point - Its the American Way. Its in fishing, golf, our clothes, our cars and our homes.

They are not all fools - the couple hundred isn't gonna kill them - and they like to walk out knowing they have purchased what is accepted as "the best" or top of the line. Show their friends the new hot rod and shoot away. I don't see a problem with that.

To be honest - If you stuck a flipper on my bow and said I have to shoot with it - I would be very upset - probably put the bow down and try to get that little flipper to drop down at the shot[8D].

Don't blame it on the industry - I think the industry is giving what most of us want - new stuff. I am sorry if goes against what you feel archery is about - but if you would forget about what we are shooting and what we like - maybe you can enjoy the sport a little more.

I hate to think that guys like me are a cancer to this sport[>:]

You know, some of here on this site have been shooting bow's for a very long time. I myself have been for close to 40 years. back then we didn't have the choices that today's bowhunters do. I personally have always chosen to shoot instinctively (but not always with traditional gear) up until the last couple of years, that's my choice but my best friend has been bowhunting as long as I have and he chose to move into sights,etc. as they evolved. Does this mean he is not as much a bowhunter as I am, of course not. He just chose the other way to shoot. He is still a bowhunter. Over the years I think I have seen just as many fanatics on both sides of the issue. Because someone decides to use a recurve or longbow and then go out and not hit the broadside of a barn with it doesn't mean he is a better bowhunter than someone with high tech equipment who only takes the gear out the week (or even day) before the season because he has it sighted in already. They both are not bowhunters! To me to be a bowhunter means that you owe it to yourself to become as good as you can with whatever equipment it is that you chose to use and then take that same determination into the woods. I've even heard the same type of argument from ground hunters who say hunting from a treestand is cheating. You older hunters should remember hearing that line a lot back when the Baker treestands came around. Yes, I agree with arthur P. when he criticizes the pro shop owners for trying to sell the most expensive gear, (all pro shop owners are not like this) but that's when the bowhunters should help out the newbies at the range and tell them other ways to set up the equipment or other ways to shoot a bow. Maybe I get serious about hearing discussions on this subject because I always seem to think that the anti hunting community loves it when there is desention. Here in NJ the hunters are the minority so I know what I'm talking about. What's the difference if the guy's (or gal's) stabilizer is longer than your bow? As long as they love the sport, put the time in and become prepared and are ethical I say everyone fitting this criteria are Bowhunters.

Bmott

I have to agree with what Bmott said. Who cares what kind of equipment you have as long as you got out and shoot it enough to get good with it. Heck I probably don't practice as much as I should but this year I am now in a bow club and can go shoot at any time I want to which I think is awesome. However I grew up entirely in the compound bow generation, and that is what I shoot. I did try instinctive shooting once and shot the horn off of my uncle's 3-d deer . I think I would have just as much fun shooting a longbow or trad. I personally just like to get out and shoot when I can. When I have kids you can dang well bet I am going to try to get them into the sport. I'm trying to get quite a few people into bowhunting right now, and have already got my best freind into it and he loves it now. However I won't tell or amyone else they are a worse bowhunter than me because of the equipment.

I do not. In particular because we are not discussing the interactions of the proshop owner and customer, we are discussing the interactions of the individuals on this forum. Also, if it is as you say an SOP and the vast majority of the shooters shoot that way then why would it be out of line to suggest to the method that has worked for the overwhelming majority of shooters as opposed to the method used by the overwhelming minority.

I feel pretty sure that if I were going to take up golf[:'(] that I would check around and see what kind of equipment the majority of golfers were having success and then pursue that path. Are archers the stupidest group of humans on the planet that once they advance in knowledge naturally migrate toward equipment that will ultimately cause them to be less successful? If not then why do the majority of "successful" archers that have been in the sport for 10 years or more, shoot training wheels and gadgets? I think there is a case for both methods to be shot successfully however, it seems that the overwhelming majority find the contemporary method the most suitable. It just seems like if I were the one guy on the tour playing with wood clubs and the rest of the tour was playing with state of the art titaniums and having just as much success if not more than me, I would have a difficult time arguing that my way was better than their way simply because it worked for me. But that's just me

It all boils down to perception. A lot of trad shooters look down on modern shooters b/c SOME of them perceive the modern form of archery to be a cop out or the easy road. On the other hand, some modern shooters look down on trad shooters as elitist, crotchety old farts I love shooting my bow and I love archery, but my number one reason for shooting a bow is to kill large whitetail deer, that is what drives me, its my passion. I realize that achieving that goal with traditional gear would be quite a triumph, but I don't have the time or patience it takes to become proficient with such gear AND when I do get that once in a lifetime shot at a trophy buck standing in a thicket at 35yds, I want to know that I can hit the spot without exception.

Actually, I have as much chance of making a clean harvest with my recurve as I do with my compound. Only difference is, I have to get a lot closer with my recurve before I shoot. I would guess that my average shot with the recurve has been around 6 -8 yards. I get fewer opportunities with my recurve, because I need to get very close. When I do, I realize I accomplished something that is not as easy as getting to within, let's say - 20 yards with my compound. I know that there are those who can not accept getting fewer opportunities, and will prefer to hunt with a compound, but just the same, a sense of accomplishment is always greater when succeeding at a harder task. For instance, every hunter would feel more satisfaction from harvesting an elk from the high country of the Rockies, then they would shooting one in a 10' x 10' pen.

It isn't an issue with me, as I said in the paragraph before the one you responded to. I don't really care what people use, so I don't worry about it. I'm only commenting because I too see new hunters pushed into compounds and gadgets. Everything seems to be about how we can make it easier and how you can be more accurate from longer distances. The motivation for this seems to be profit for the company making the gadget down to more profit to the shop owner who is pushing it on their customers who are beginners. I would like beginners to learn the thrill of getting real close before they shoot - the art of hunting. I think more would become more dedicated bowhunters. Like I said before, it's a "bit" frustrating, not a lot.

If bowhunting is just attracting gunhunters who want to extend their hunting time, then they will look for every method to make it easier to make a kill. Some of those methods will do the opposite, but every now and then something will come along to extend their effective range. Where does it end? Does everyone want to see bows that are consistantly effective to 80 yards or longer? Or, do we want to see this remain hunting with close encounters. I happen to know the thrill of getting to within a couple feet of a deer is much more exciting and addicting then getting to within 30 or 40 yards. Is it just about the kill or is it also about the experience?

Then you have to look at the underlying reasons for people taking their respective positions for that interaction.

How did that overwhelming majority come into being? It wasn't until about 10 years ago that the number of release shooters ever equalled the number of fingers shooters. Now you can't hardly find a fingers shooter, much less someone that shoots barebow. I wonder how many of that overwhelming majority might find out they can shoot equally as well, if not better, with their fingers instead of a release. You'd be suprized at how many people I've run across that are totally astounded that a compound can be shot with fingers. The information is being suppressed, at the shops and on the forums - open your mind and shut your mouth, indeed!

Would you care to explain why traditional is the fastest growing segment of the bowhunting community? Even Mathews is taking notice of that fact and is set to introduce their own line of traditional bows in the near future.

The best comment I can make on that is that it seems the industry is operating under the P.T. Barnum theory of marketing.