Thinking of having my own broadheads made
 

Ive been slinging arrows at animals for 45 years and in that time Ive taken my fair share. During that time Ive tried many many different broadheads from 2 blades to 4, both fixed and mechanical, large and small heads, strong and weak, cheap heads and relatively expensive made of good quality steel and what I later learned was very low quality steel. Ive also killed both deer and Black bear with homemade broadheads that I designed and made myself.

What is the "Best" broadhead? If you spend any amount of time online, you will come across that question many times. The answer has always been the same. Its the head that is sharp, strong, hits where you are aiming and one that you have confidence in. You can then include additional qualifiers such as, "can I afford it?". "Can I sharpen it?" or "Do I consider it a one-and-done, disposable head?".

We all have our criteria that draws us to selecting a hunting head that we want to try and then after use, we determine if its a head we want to continue to use or if we move onto the next head in our search for our personal "best" broadhead. Many times, that search is out of boredom or simply the desire to try new things. This is partially the reason why I have in excess of 500 different broadheads in my shop and many of those are multi packs of heads. Some of these Ive hunted with while others have never made it past the practice range. There is a fine line between hoarding and collecting.

In all that time,and all those different broadheads, I have never had a broadhead that was the reason or cause for me losing an animal. Ive been fortunate in that I have a very high recovery rate for archery kills and even the low number of animals that I have not recovered, Ive confirmed, that the bulk of those went on to live. In every case, the fault rested with me not putting the head in the right spot but even the poorest quality-disposable head will quickly dispatch an animal if placed in the vitals.

The reasons we pick a particular broadhead design is largely subjective. The reason we stick with a particular head is mostly objective, based on our personal experience at the practice range and in the field. If you are a fortunate soul that found the prefect head for you that you find success with and, and fairly priced and continues to be manufactured, you may never find the need to explore or switch. Perhaps, all you ever chase is deer sized game so you don't find the need to explore other heads and you find certain heads to be "over-kill" because of size, or features or price if all its tasked with is creating a short blood trail to a deer.

While Whitetail deer are still my favorite bowhunting species, Ive been fortunate enough to expand the number of species I chase with a bow and arrow including water buffalo, Vancouver Bull, Red stag, wild boar, Bear, turkey and even alligator and last year I took several species but used 5 different broadheads to do so because I based my broadhead selection on the species I was chasing which varied in weight from 20 to 2,000 lbs.

So why am I emptying my head of thoughts of hunting heads and my personal preference? Its because I'm contemplating, having a custom broadhead made for me for small to medium sized game from turkey to Elk (or sub 1,000 pound animals) that has the features Ive come to see the advantages in that is not currently available to purchase. These features are. (in no particular order)

1. Monolithic head machined from a single piece of metal with no moveable or removable parts.

2. High strength, carbon steel (no stainless steel) likely a high carbon tool steel such as O1, D2, 11L41, s7 and the like.

3. Hard yet not so hard that it is difficult to re-sharpen (something in the RC 50 range) since the blades can't be removed, its has to be able to be resharpened by the user (me).

4. 4 blades. While I really like 2 blades and single bevel for really big boned game over 1,000 pounds, there are already a wealth of those heads and I like 4 blades over 3 blades.

5. A robust blade bevel. An edge that is both sharp and strong. 45 degrees included angle (22.5 degrees per side of the blade)

6. Heavy (since heavy is a relative term) I like a broadhead in the 175 to 200 grain range for sub 1,000 pound game as part of a total arrow package coming in at 500 to 700 grains and the benefits of higher FOC.

7. Long, low aspect ratio. While Ive enjoyed a lot of success with short, high angle heads like Slick Trick, I think those head deliver a "punch" to the animal that sends it into the next county rather than low profile heads that slip through which seem to cause less alarm to the animal.

8. A strong tip. The leading edge or tip of the head is tasked with paving the way for the entire arrow package. Tip curl is not an option. I want a tip that cant meet large boney impacts, without yielding.

The negatives (to some people) is a head that the user will have to own the sharpening process but I contend that time spent sharpening your broadheads is not subtracted from your life. Since I own a broadhead sharpening guide company, I have already designed the sharpener for this head.

Its going to rust. Good quality, high carbon steel is going to rust if neglected. Its the price we pay for Good quality, high carbon steel.

Its going to be costly since its not going to be mass produced. I need to find a machinist with Swiss screw machine and then a heat treater and finally a coater (perhaps black zinc).

That attached picture is such a broadhead.

Is this the "best" broadhead ever? Nope! Is it the answer to all bowhunters prayers? Nope! Is it magic? Nope! Is it the next best thing or the end-all-be-all of broadheads all the wild stuff we hear when a new broadhead is made? Nope and since its not meant to be commercially available, Im not burdened with coming up with the long list of usual fibs and fabrications we have come to expect from broadhead makers trying to convince folks to empty their wallets. Its only meant to be what Im looking for in a broadhead for sub 1,000 pound critters.

If you are viewing this and think to yourself "Hey, that looks just like a "insert broadhead name here". Know that the American Broadhead Collecting club recognizes in excess of 3000 diff. broadheads that were commercially available since the late 1800's so this head, no doubt looks like some other 4 blade broadhead.

Ive sent out for quote to a half dozen swiss screw machine houses. Yesterday I 3D printed some prototypes in my shop.

great concept ! Since I have had to go the crossbow route based on shoulder and back surgeries I have been searching for a quality heavy broadhead featuring 4 blades ! You sure were not related ? This looks like it would fit the bill. I have been a heavy broadhead man for a long time, Until muzzy went brain dead and quit making the 130 grain 4 blade heads I used them exclusively in compounds then xbow, even with these and xbow I shoot directly for the shoulder bone, usually smash it and usually both, not much trailing done this way, started this aiming because wolves began strealing a free meal from us if they traveled a reasonable distance

A 45 deg. bevel on your edges will be very blunt, you'll have a very robust edge, but I don't think you can get very slicing sharp edge on 45 deg.. Even the edge on an axe doesn't go much over 30 deg. You may want to rethink you edge geometry. The steels you mentioned are excellent for holding an edge. Use the right heat treat to insure a durable edge.

Im going to disagree based on the fact that I am a custom knife maker and own a broadhead sharpening guide company and have been sharpening metal edges for decades. 22.5 degrees (per side) is a common angle for 4 blade broadheads and will produce a hair popping, shaving sharp edge. I know this because I do it with great regularity. Aside from that, even on broadheads in which the blades can be removed, 22.5 and 23 degrees is common.

As part of the iterative process of design/prototype, evaluate/improve, Ive made some changes to the pending single piece of metal, monolithic broadhead design project for my own personal broadhead. Added length, more slender tip, more metal in the vents, etc. But the weight stays the same (175 with vents and 200 without).

DIY its a personal preference but I'm not a big fan of 4 blade broadheads. I like 3 blade and 2 blade designs. I had a coulple bad experiences with 4 blade ones. One of the best fixed blade broadhead designs I've ever used and resulted in the fastest kills (several dying within sight) was the Magnus Stinger. They flew extremely true when new. My only complaint with them is they were weak and would bend easily. You shoot one a few times into a "Block" type target the shoot again without realizing it was bent and completely miss the entire target. Not good for your arrows. Now if someone would make this design with a stronger material I'd be all over it.

Yes, that is what this is. And in an adult weight rather than wounding things to death with lightweight gear.

Well that's your opinion. Yes those heavy BHs have more KE but a bad shot is a bad shot no matter what you're using. As I recall back before compound bows were invented we bow hunters were killing hundreds of deer a year with recurves and longbows that didn't come close to the KE of bows today. I know because I was one of those bow hunters. And since I've been using a compound I've killed dozens of deer with arrows whose total weight didn't exceed 425 gr. which included a BH of only 100 gr. And most of those bow shots were pass throughs. The design I was talking about making stronger was the Magnus Stinger 2 blade.
Now my opinion for what its worth is that there would be a lot less unrecovered game if the bow hunter would just sit and wait after his/her shot. I understand the emotion and sense of urgency to go after your animal but the animal isn't going to get any deader if you wait an hour or more depending on the location of the hit. I learned my lesson the hard way. Other reasons for a lot of wounded game is lack of practice and taking shots at bad angled shots.
Again, my opinion based on experience, I built a dislike for 4 blade designs. Twice I've had perfectly good shots turn out bad because of them. Both times my shot was perfect. 1/3 up the body behind the shoulder and the bh blade, I found later, hit a rib and diverted the arrow just inside the rib cage. The first one went out the gut in front of the opposite hind leg taking out one lung and the liver and the other turned 90* and stuck in the near side ham just barely slicing the lung.
Now your design does have a steeper profile which would possibly eliminate that but it is still a 4 blade design. While I admire your ingenuity your comment about "adult weight" seems to come off as being snobbish and really unnecessary.

Actually no, they have more momentum, not KE. I place worth on momentum and not KE.

Again you mistake KE for the Momentum this old rigs shot and they they were successful.

Its born of 45 years of bowhunting experience and Broadhead testing and killing really big game and is not opinion but rather a self evident truth.

Well DIY I'ms sorry but I have a bit more seasons under my belt then you and successful hunting all eastern and most western big game. You have your opinion and I have mine so we can agree to disagree. But I'm not mistaking KE for momentum. Without KE (speed and mass) you won't have momentum. In days of yore before compounds when bow reaching 180 fps were fast a heavy arrow/broadhead combo was pretty much a necessity for good penetration. But with today's speed bows you don't need heavy arrows. It's simple physics really. If your BH is sharp and your aim is true you will kill any deer or black bear with an arrow/BH weight of about 400 gr. Now if I were after bigger critters like brown bear of larger African game the yes I would want a heavier combo. You for get to mention as some readers may not be aware of is that if you use a heavier BH you may have to also go to a heavier spined shaft to compensate for it.
I feel I needed to edit this post because while I see your need for a heavy shaft/BH combo I don't feel it is necessary for deer or blackies. That being said your reasoning is the same reason I like using a .45-70 for these same animals when I could just as easily use a .243. Same principle just different tools. The animals will be just as dead.

Going to relate this a little farther. Let's say you have a bow that shoots a 420 gr arrow with a sharp 2 blade BH at a modest 300 fps. That will give you a KE of just shy of 85 ftlb. (with a momentum factor of .56; :whatever the heck that means)
Now take that same bow and replace the 100 gr BH with your 175 gr 4 blade BH. The weight difference in the BH alone will lower your speed down the 285 fps. Your KE will be about 89.3 ftlb. (and a momentum factor of .63 slug ft/sec). However now your arrows may be under spined with the heavier head. So now you have to go with a heavier shaft. So we move up the the next spine. Now your shooting a 600 gr arrow and your speed has dropped to 264 fps or there about. Now you have a KE of 92.9 ftlb. (with a momentum factor of .70)
So with your heavier BH you will lose approx 36 fps, over 10% in velocity and gain almost 8 ftlb of energy and your momentum factor will increase by .14 slug ft/sec.
Additionally your 4 blade design will create more friction as it travels through bone and tissue than a cut on contact 2 blade BH. So your slight gain will be diminished by the design itself. Not to mention those heavy arrows will likely be way over spined for your bow.
You can disagree with me which you probably will and I can live with that. I'm just giving my personal opinion base on fact and figures.

And still you got it wrong.

I am not speaking of opinion. Im speaking of fact. You are mistaken.

[QUOTE=bronko22000;4355405]But I'm not mistaking KE for momentum.

Yes. Yes you are.

Yes, high momentum and low KE setups. Thanks for proving my point and reversing your erroneous position.

Hear again you are wrong. (thats not an opinion by the way, its a self evident truth)

And yet you continue to get it wrong.

That is true even with a field point. But not all aim is true and animal move before the arrow strikes. You are speaking of a perfect world. Bowhunting is seldom perfect. Stuff happens so being properly geared 100% of the time and prepared for the worst case, makes those few times when perfection happens, even sweeter. Plan and build for the worst and there will be fewer "I hiut a big buck and cant find it" threads.

You are making my point again and sometimes deer can absorb a great deal and keep on living so gear up with heavy setups like you are trying to kill large animals and you wont be disappointed.

That is so obvious as to not require mention. Stick with me, we will get your mind right.

[QUOTE=bronko22000;4355423] Going to relate this a little farther. Let's say you have a bow that shoots a 420 gr arrow with a sharp 2 blade BH at a modest 300 fps. [quote]

"Modest" 300 FPS???. LOL

Actually the KE will be less than 84 so your calcs. are not correct. The .559 slugs (that you dont understand) is what keeps the arrow going forward and is far more important than KE.

[QUOTE=bronko22000;4355423] Now take that same bow and replace the 100 gr BH with your 175 gr 4 blade BH. The weight difference in the BH alone will lower your speed down the 285 fps. Your KE will be about 89.3 ftlb. (and a momentum factor of .63 slug ft/sec). [quote)

Yes, more momentum and more penetration and a more lethal setup. You are starting to catch on (quite by mistake so stick with me and we will get your mind right)

Yes, now you are getting it, More Momentum and less fret over KE. You are on a roll. And again, the obvious statement about properly spined arrows. It goes without saying.

[QUOTE=bronko22000;4355423] So with your heavier BH you will lose approx 36 fps [quote]

Who cares? Speed does not kill. Momentum does. Its drives the arrow forward.

Yes, yes, yes. Now you are getting it. Momentum kills. Its keeps the arrow moving forward. You are starting to catch on.

You mispelled "do more damage and cut more stuff to make the animal bleed".

You continue to assert that a hunter is given only one set of arrow shafts to use his entire life. I will say it clearly YOU NEED TO PROPERLY SPIN THE SHAFTS TO THE HEAD WEIGHT YOU USE. This is obvious so I dont know why you think people dont already know this.

You have offered opinion, I have offered self evident truths. Im operating with facts and you are making statements in error and bad opinions. (and spending far too much time thinking people dont understand how to spin their arrows for some odd reason)

Well you go on thinking you need massive amounts of weights while I'll just go on killing deer, bear and antelope and getting complete pass throughs and flatter trajectory with my 100 gr. BHs while you continue to shoot your slow heavy arrows and pulling them out of the dirt after the buck of a lifetime ducks the string at 35+ yards. God bless and have a nice day.

LOL at duck the string. The live weight of all the animal I killed with my bow last season came to over 4,400 lbs. 8 species in 7 states including 2 Pope and Young bucks. No animals ducked my string. That is not even a real thing for the experienced bowhunter that knows what he is doing. I think this discussion was good for you. I think you came away with a better understanding of arrow/broadhead lethality and ballistics as they relate to bowhunters. I think you are starting to catch on.

Not really. I did learn a couple things. One about momentum and KE although different have the same results. Two, an arrow of 400-450 grs is plenty for any NA big game when the proper BH is used. And three you think you are right every time. And you can't tell me deer or antelope don't duck the string. I've seen it too many times. If you don't believe that I know you're just blowing smoke.

If you are doing it wrong and not reading the animals behavior and stretching your shot distance and shoot a light weight rig that makes the bow very loud due to a light arrow, certain game will react. One of the many benefits of heavy arrows and High FOC setups is how quite it makes the bow.

Granted I'll give you that. But if you go too heavy, even though you have more energy (call it KE or Momentum it doesn't really matter) your arrows may not fly as well as they would if they were properly spined for your draw weight and length. Too light will also have the same effect. I shoot 63# and shoot a 29" shaft with 100 gr head. My recommended spine for my Gold Tip arrows is 340 (8.2 gpi). However I go with a 300 (10.9 gpi) which gives me more weight and better arrow flight/groups. The IBO minimum of 5 gr per lb of draw weight is too light for hunting IMO. It makes the bow too loud and puts a lot more stress on the equipment.

But it does matter and clearly you still fail to understand or grasp the differences in KE and MO as it applies to bowhunting.

Nonsense. Pure nonsense. You continue to operate under the misconception that a bowhunter will simply select the wrong spine for their arrows and wont match the spine to the bow speed and head weight. Its a given that hunters will select the proper spine so I cant for the life of me understand why you keep bringing up a moot point. Its a non-issue and you can expect that arrows will be spined to the bow and broadheads selected. Whether shooting 85 grain heads or the Bishop 600 grain broadhead, all know that your arrow has to be spined and why arrows come in more than just one spine. You do, I do it, all bowhunters do it so I don't understand why you think bowhunters will shoot a heavy head but select the wrong spine.

Cool story. Make sure you get the correct spine for the broadhead weight you shoot. That is a non-brainer. You are going to grasp this eventually, Keep reading, Im not ready to give up on you yet.

All I'm saying from the start is there is really no need for a 175 gr BH unless your plan on taking on cape buffalo or elephant. Which reminds me. My 420 gr arrow which included a 100 gr BH (Magnus Stinger) completely passed through both bison I shot. The last one, a huge bull, after the hit turned a complete 360 and went 15 maybe 20 yards before going down. Use whatever you decide. But my opinion is that much weight is not needed.
And for the average Joe who doesn't have the cash flow to always buy new arrows has, as an example is shooting 60# and a 28" shaft (say gold tip) shooting a 100 gr head the chart recommendation is for a 400 spine. ( IMO a 340 would be better). Now if he should put a 175 gr head on there which the chart doesn't even show he would have to lower his poundage down as far as the bow could go because the chart recommends a draw wt in the mid to high 40s.

For them Id use perhaps an 800 / 900 grain arrow/broadhead combo. For my Water buff last year I used a 700 grain total arrow weight with a 250 grain broadhead (and I even pinned the arrow right) Its was a dual wall aluminum a 2317 with a 2117 inside of it. I talked to the guide about bowhunting gear for water buff and asked if its possible to get a pass through. He laughed and said it wont happen. He has never seen an arrow come out the other side of a water buff due to the rib size and overlapping nature and because they are so wide across the chest.

I got a pass through even with me hitting a rib. Momentum rules. KE was of no value. I was properly setup in advance.

This is the exit shoulder. You don't go through the ribs and exit the shoulder on this sized animal with 450 grain dart.



The entrance side shoulder. LOL at considering a 450 grain arrow.





No animal was ever lost because the arrow got too much penetration. Many are lost due to a lack thereof.

I laughed. I have arrows and broad heads that make up a 450 grain setup, arrows and broadheads for a 560 gain setup, Arrows and broadheads for a 700 grain setup. Dovetail sights for each setup all out of the same bow and off the same rest.

The arrow I used for my Gator a few months ago was just over 1,400 grains. I took a shot at a gator larger than this one from a distance of 12 feet. I was slightly above him. I bounced off because I hit a scute on his back.. even when I got this guy I only got about 10 inches of penetration.



If I were so unfortunate to only hunt small game like deer and black bear, I would just have a 560 grain TAW setup out of my 65 pound bow with a 4 blade head.

550 lb red stag I took last year at 41 yards using a 700 grain arrow package. Total pass through and the arrow went an additional 30 feet and still was buried deep in the dirt. He didn't know what happen. He went 30 yards and then stopped and stood and looked back wondering what happened. Then slipped into the black.

700 grain total arrow package on a 318 pound Eurasian boar last year. Through the shield and the arrow his the rock ground 10 yards past him . 2 inch thick shields.



Could not even bend the shields while skinning.

45 yard shot on a feral bull I killed in Hawaii up on the mountain on the big island. 45 yard set center punching a rib with a 700 grain arrow package.



Right through the center of a rib. A 450 grain arrow would have been useless. Not enough momentum.

Last year I took This Russian boar at over 30 yards with a 700 grain arrow package. Entered the ham, traveled through 35 inches of boar and exited behind the ear.

Entrance.



Exit.



Passed through ribs on both sides the far side shoulder and the arrow went another 10 yards into the snow. A 450 grain arrow would not have been able to accomplish this kind of result since it would not have the needed momentum.

One of the big does I took last year with my heavy setup . Smashed through both shoulders breaking both front legs and taking out the vitals and passed through. A 450 grain arrow would not have taken out even one shoulder. This was done with a 165 grain head, a special insert and weight tubes in the arrow. If the worst happens, have confidence that high momentum will aid you.

Took these 2 P&Y bucks last year with the same arrow I took the doe with.



Quartering away, through the near side scapula and exited in front of the shoulder severing the top of the heart and the stuff that makes the far side shoulder work so he stood there and turned into a faucet rather than running off with an arrow in him, requiring a tracking job. GO to the woods with a heavy setup and new spend time wondering if everything will go perfectly and know the even if it doesn't, you have momentum to back you up. And no silly mech heads you have to worry about opening or breaking.

Impressive animals but those animals are not what the average bow hunter goes after. And except for those large boar, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot any of those other animals with my set up. You never mentioned what poundage you're shooting. What is it?

Im not designing this broadhead for the average bowhunter. Im designing it for my specific wants but the average bowhunter would benefit from abandoning the 100 grain broadhead fad and the speed fad and go back to the benefits of high momentum and we would see far fewer, "I hit a big buck and cant find it" threads where they blame everything from the broadhead to the "void" when they should be blaming themselves but they tout how fast their bow is when speed doesn't kill.

I laughed. That water buff would have run off with you arrow stick far out of it sending you on a search.

I did but you are not reading the words I post. Its clearly stated.

Laugh, think and use whatever you want. And yes I may have to do some tracking but so what. IMO 700+ gr of arrow weight is not necessary, even for those animals. You aim for the lungs and not the shoulder and you will have a dead animal plain an simple. But you don't agree and that's fine with me. Its obvious you like the equipment you use. But then again so do I. You've stated your opinion and I mine. I know you're going to post something after this because your ego will make you. That's OK. Its just that I won't be responding to it and from the looks of the posts on this thread neither will anyone else.

You are speaking in opinions. I am speaking in facts. We aim for the lungs and sometimes hit the shoulder. I wont worry as I can expect positive results. When that happens to the light arrow crowd, they blame everything except themselves but tout how fast their rig can fling a light weight dart.

Im glad we spent this time together and I think you picked up some good facts and data that will aid you and will make you a more lethal bowhunter. You are welcome.

interesting discussion gentlemen
you make me feel like IM 40 years behind time
I have not changed the bow I use in decades
BTW link is interesting



http://www.american-hunter.com/broad...dhead_test.htm

I use these
http://www.american-hunter.com/broad...ain_4blade.htm

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search.cmd?form_state=searchForm&N=0&fsch=true&Ntk =AllProducts&Ntt=carbon+arrows&x=10&y=6&WTz_l=Head er;Search-All+Products
btw I know from experience that a decent arrow with these broad heads is very effective ON ELK from my 88 lb draw bow
I use heavy carbon 32" arrows with a 31" draw length, and arrows commonly zip completely thru the elks chest,
even if ribs are cut in the process, arrows seldom stop in the body of the deer or elk hit in my experience,
old out of date equipment in the hands of an old out of date geezer still seems to be rather lethal.
so you need to be aware of whats behind your intended game target,

I love the old Phantoms you mention. I got my first 6 from the screw machine house in WI that was making them for Stan Lurowski (Elk Mountain archery) before he died and Muzzy bought the design and name from his widow. I killed 7 deer with one phantom head. Shoot, sharpen and repeat 7 times with a single broadhead. Its a great 4 blade head at 125 grains and with a heavy brass insert to boost the weight and FOC, a great killer 4 blade.

I laughed. Trying to compare bullets to arrows. :lolabove:

You failed. There is no shame in you owning that. All I did was make you aware of your mistake. No need for you to get so upset and emotional. *Edited by bocajnala*