When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

It seems that almost everyone here considers the Zaft buck a pickup and I am wondering at what point did it become a pickup.

I have heard four main reasons:
1. He could not recover the meat (due to coyotes)

2. The farmer, not him found the deer

3. It was found the next day

4. He could not verify it was his

I know I am in the minority but I consider it a kill, a kill under the worst of circumstances but still a kill, and because of the caliber of the deer everyone calls it a pickup.

So let me start with a scenario for each of the four reasons that I think would be a kill.

1. Deer shot at dusk, by the time you get out of your stand it is dark, unsure of the shot you decide to comeback at first light (o.k. so far) you find your deer 50 yds. from your stand ripped apart by yotes. You cannot recover the meat. Is it a pickup or a kill? I say chalk one up to the not friendly hunting gods and it is a kill.
2. You have been tracking a deer for 8 hours and run across another hunter / farmer / jogger who after listening to your frustrations tells you he found a dead deer 400 yds the other way. You find he deer with your arrow in it. Odds are you would of never found that deer. Was it your lucky day to claim your trophy or do you now drag back your “pickup” and display it with the rest of your road kills. I say you did not find it and you are lucky, very lucky so chalk one up to the friendly hunting gods and drag home your trophy.
3. Many deer are found the next day, in cold weather you could find a deer days later and the meat would be good. So what’s the cut off ?
4. Zaft could not verify it was his deer because? He could not verify an arrow wound, His blood trail did not lead to his deer. Very often you do not see the arrow hit the deer. You can only confirm the deer was hit with an arrow. Only with a team of forensic scientists and DNA tests to compare the blood on your arrow to the found deer’s blood can you be 100% certain.
Many deer are found after loosing the blood trail and searching. Are all these kills a pickups?
I know I am new hear but I can’t help picturing one of the long time respected posters telling of a big buck he had shot with the same exact scenario as Zaft’s. With the responses from you guys as “ I give you credit for looking for him for two days, many guys would of given up” or “ Nice buck, be sure to send that farmer a fruit basket or put him in your will” or “ Those Darn Yotes I can’t believe they ruined your deer, call DEC and see if they will give you a new tag”
Anyway, there you have it, Lay it on me
<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Rack attack,

Yes, I have shot deer in the evening and have left then overnight, I have even shot deer in the late morning and left them overnight. And if a person has found my deer and told me where to find him I would be greatfull. Now, I have never abandoned the hunt in my opinion, I have just given the deer enough time to expire without presurring him.
Is this the same thing that happened with Zaft? I don't think so.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

1. You played the chances and waited and were unluck that the coyotes found it. Judgement call there, coyotes aren't anyones fault.

2. You are 8 hours into the tracking job -0 meaning you had a bad hit. You are 400 yards from the deer, meaning it traveled a long way around or you're a poor tracker. You still yet recover the deer, meat is good, and call it very very lucky someone else found it for you, because it sure sounds like you wouldn't have. Is it a true kill and recover ? Not really, no.

3. Maybe actually tracking/trailing the animal and finding it ??

4. I never doubted it was the same deer, I think few people do.

Zaft took a poor shot on a huge whitetail, hit it far back and high, had a poor blood trail and no blood trail after a little ways and looked for it 3 seperate times. He was smart leaving a poorly hit deer overnight, no one doubts that. I think the key is, how far from where he shot the deer to the farmers field ? No one says ... why ? I bet you its 1/2 mile or maybe even a full mile from the site where the shot was taken, thats why. And that there indicates a poor hit, a deer that would never have been retrieved and a pickup IMO. That other big deer in the same North American Whitetail issue - it too was a pickup, and had a very similar scenario to Zaft, except it took him 2 months to find the deer.

Another big question, and what I feel happened, is that the deer was weakened, laid down in that field after going a half mile, maybe more, and he was found and brought down by coyotes. Also, I killed a 200 pound, 8 pointer in Kansas in 2000 and the shot was at dusk. Not wanting to push the deer on an uncertain shot at night, I waited until morning. Wasn't neccessary, as the animal only went about 150 yards. Coyotes had eaten 1/4 of the meat, starting with guts and backstrap and ham. They never touched the front end or the cape. I recovered the meat that I could and consider it a kill. I tracked the animal, my hit was good, the coyotes were unfortunate but I'd make the same decision again.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

If the deer dies of wounds inflicted by your shot within a reasonable time, it is a kill, no matter if you call Miss Cleo to find the deer. By reasonable time I mean 12 hours or so. Not several days or a week later from infection.
12 years ago I shot a buck that was found, but too late and was rotting. I was within feet of him crawling around on my hands and knees without seeing him. I consider him one of my bow kills. I didn't want another deer that year I wanted him, whether I found him in time to butcher or not. I swore to myself then and there that if the same situation arose, I would recover it in time.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

I can understand everyone’s thoughts about this great buck, and think the situation should be scrutinized.

Stealthy, I agree that a lot of this is a judgment call and there is no defined line as to what is a kill or pickup. We simply disagree on no.2 and that’s fine.

Maybe that deer was found a mile away maybe it wasn't. But if it was just a couple hundred yds away does that change the situation?

Maybe Zafts shot was good enough to kill that buck in a reasonable time and distance and the coyotes pushed him out of his deathbed and forced a tough almost impossible recovery.

Even good ethical and dedicated bow hunters make bad hits and can loose a trail. I don't think Zaft gave up yet and started hunting again, I think this is a very important point. If he had given up on the trail and began hunting and it was found I might be on your side of the fence.

I just know if it was me I would consider that buck mine, that farmer would be in my will, and that rack would be on my wall.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Maybe that deer was found a mile away maybe it wasn't. But if it was just a couple hundred yds away does that change the situation?

Maybe Zafts shot was good enough to kill that buck in a reasonable time and distance and the coyotes pushed him out of his deathbed and forced a tough almost impossible recovery.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Rack-attack - I tend to agree with Stealthycat. There are way too many unknowns about how the death of the &quot;Zaft&quot; buck occured to confirm it as a P&Y World Record. Given the circumstances of the recovery there is no way to confirm that Zaft's arrow wound was fatal. Maybe the coyotes did kill a weakened buck that might have otherwise recovered from a very poor hit. Deer frequently survive marginal hits from sharp broadheads.

I will also agree with others that if I were Zaft and I knew that this was the buck I had hit that I would claim it as my own. I am not disputing that it is his deer.

Just because he was able to tag it and claim it as his own does not mean that P&Y will accept the buck as meeting their entry guidelines. P&Y as an organization is concerned about more aspects of bowhunting than admitting every big buck to their record book. If that were the case they would have accepted Mike Beatty's huge nontypical as the new world record.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

technically he would have never found the deer,and hes lucky the farmer didnt know what he had found

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Every deer in the world looks bigger on the hoof than he does on the ground. Zaft said he shot at a big buck. How many big bucks are there in that country...... A LOT more than there are in many areas. A 160 class buck in a hurried situation looks lie 250. No, we're not sure that buck is his. We're not sure it's the same one. We can't even find an arrow hole. You must have a chain of evidence leading to that deer.... even if it's a lucky find.... such as an arrow wound or something. But to find a destroyed carcass is absurd. I would think fair chase should have an asterisk that states and recovered in edible condition. Even in the pictures in the field they say he's using a different cape to display the horns. For all I know the darn thing was rotten when he found it.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

If I heard that a farmer close to me found a huge dead buck what is to stop me from saying Oh yea I shot that buck yesterday and its mine and I want to enter it in the record book. How does anyone know that Zafts shot even killed the buck? Maybe it was only wounded and the coyotes killed it. In my opinion it is a pickup not a hunter kill.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

If it was my buck and I went through all of this and new in my own mind it was a lethal hit and darn sure it was the same deer ,than I wouldn`t give a darn what the rest of you thought I would know in my mind I had taken it fair and square and the yotts got a taste of my buck so we will probably never know and it shouldn`t matter to him if it makes the bbok if he truly believes it is his.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

I consider it a bit fishy that he &quot;gave up tracking to go to work&quot; Who here would not stay at it till there was no doubt on a buck that big. My guess is that he figured it was a bad shot, gave up, and got very lucky when the farmer found it. Maybe it was the buck he shot. Maybe his arrow was the only cause of the deers death. Maybe he would have found it himself. Maybe Mitch Rompola's deer is legitimate too. OK maybe the Rompola comparison is a bit extreme, but, a &quot;new world record&quot; shouldn't have so many clouds around it. I also have a bit of a problem with him publicly declaring it a world record before it's official. Look at his website. He went into the big bucks business mode awfully fast.
Am I jealous and envious of this guy? Sure!
I'm jealous and envious of Mike Beatty too but I don't have any of these kind of issues with Beatty's buck.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

It wasn't a kill in my eyes. He shot the buck, when HE KNEW IT WASN'T A GOOD SHOT. He knew that it was a bad shot but he &quot;had to take it before his shooting window ended&quot; He didn't track it because he had to work? What the heck, if I shot a buck that big, I would be after it NO MATTER WHAT. Gosh, it could be my birthday and I would miss my own party for that deer. I believe harvesting an animal involves you our your hunting partner to FIND the animal. Not hearing about a farmer who found it. It shouldn't be allowed in the record books just because he didn't kill and recover the animal. Come on, anybody who says that he did is just blind. He shot a big buck, he left, came back the next day, looked for a little bit and left, then he hears about a farmer who had found a HUGE buck on his property. So, Zaft goes over and claims it. Come on, what a joke. Gosh, I could go along side the highway, pick up a road killed buck and claim that it was mine. Thats the same thing he did in my eyes.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

I'm still formulating an opinion on this...and I think I'll wait a little longer before ripping into Zaft.

I have left the trail of a deer to go to work before...but only because of my occupation. However, I did this only when I knew the meat would be OK. A few times I even had a friend that would take over the trail for me.

For some reason, though, this story just has a lot of variables. Who knows???

Edited by - Pro-Line on 02/04/2002 11:18:09

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

IMO i think the beatty buck was more believable because the game officials went with him to retrace his steps and get the exact story of what happened. seems to me though if i saw a massive rack with velvet dangling before i shot it,then i wouldve took a couple of sick days and spent more time lookin for it

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

I think this is a little fishy as well. I've tracked does I've taken for hours and called in friends to help me finally locate the animal. If you shoot an animal that big, you call every friend and aquaintance you could find to help track it. If he had tracked it for 6 or 7+ hours, and in the meantime the farmer found it than I would be OK with that, but not tracking to the fullest extent just makes me think something is wrong. Actually, even if it was a couple of days later but he had everyone (and their brother) help look and he discussed it with all the farmers to look hard too than I would believe his story more.
Just trying to read between the lines.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Has anyone ever even seen a shred of dried velvet on a buck that late in the season. It might be possible but is also cause to wonder isn't it?

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

There are a lot of fishy things about his hunt that COULD have happened but are more than likely not going to happen on a typical hunt. The buck had that much velvet? Come on, I notice that big bucks do the rubbing first and they do it ALOT. That buck looks like it didn't even rub its antlers at all. Sure, it could have naturally had that much velvet but chances are, we will never see a buck that has that much velvet on its antlers. Why would anyone give up looking for a world class buck? I can see people having to work or go to school and such, but it wouldn't matter to me. I would have searched for that deer no matter what. I wouldn't have gave up just because it got dark, I would have broke out the lanterns and continued my search. Why would he look by himself? I would have everyone I was friends with out there trying to help me get that thing. HE never recovered the deer. The FARMER recovered the deer. Why in the world would a MONSTER buck lay in a field to die? Wouldn't he head to the thickest, nastiest stuff on the face of the earth? Why didn't Zaft look around for evidence that it was his deer? How does he know it was the same one? He can't possibly be 100% sure that the buck he found, was the buck that he shot. He has NO PROOF. Mitch Rompola is more believeable than this guy. I know that I am going to hear it for that, but he is. He has a LONG history of shooting HUGE bucks, he has a picture, he had the body of the deer. He just simply didn't want to get it scored because he knew what would happen. What proof did Zaft have? His word? What does somebodies word mean now? It means NOTHING, you can't trust anybody by there words.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Interesting topic that I haven't formed a solid opinion on yet, but to answer Buck Magnet's question about velvet on a rack late in the season, it so happens that my buck that I got this last winter on Dec. 5th, although it was a mule deer, did have a piece of velvet still on his rack, so I would say that that does happen.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

I know that some deer have SOME velvet, but his deer had TONS, and I mean TONS of velvet, it appeared that the buck never even had a chance to rub trees. It looks like it just shriveled up right on his antlers.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Rack-attack - Where are you ?

Buck Magnet - A lot of good questions there. Zafts web site is all about Zaft, and little about the deer. A big buck dying in the middle of a big, open field, a big buck that KNOWS how many coyotes are in the area and how to avoid them - the only logical reason is to think the buck was weakened but not dead, and thats the opportunity the coyotes needed to take him down in the field. That makes the most sense to me.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

I am here Stealthy.

Buck-Magnet , As far as Zaft not being 100% sure about if the deer was his, this is a situation that occurs very often in bow hunting. I have had gaps in blood trails, and lost blood trails and found my buck. Are you saying that this is a pickup because I could not, without 100% certainty, prove that it was the buck I shot. No one has ever questioned the validity of these type of kills when on average deer and they happen all the time. Another point is that Zaft had described the rack and its velvet before the farmer found it.
It didn’t lay in a field to die it was pushed there by Coyotes, maybe even dragged there. Oh, and Rompola has a long history of poaching big bucks.

I was under the impression he shot the buck in October so the amount of velvet may be odd but I don’t think impossible. If you are implying that he shot the buck off season then why didn’t he pull the velvet off? Why leave it on for the hole world to question?

Did Zaft take an iffy shot? Yes. But I have also and so have most of you. Does that preclude that any deer recovered from a low percentage shot is automatically a pickup? No

Am I 100% sure that the buck he found is the one he shot? No. But looking back over 20 yrs of bow hunting I can think of some of my own recoveries and recoveries of friends that could under scrutiny also be questioned and if pressed, could not prove 100% that the buck found was without a doubt the buck shot.

Did Zaft do everything he could to recover that deer? I don’t know. With my luck I would of shot that buck the day before I had to be at work, we just don’t know. If I had to go to work you can sure bet my old man would be out there for me. I don’t know if I could of convinced a friend to loose a days pay to look for a deer, so I can’t take away his deer because of that.

Is it possible that Zaft is in cohorts with the farmer and contrived this story after they found the dead buck and that’s why he did not get any help. I guess it is possible. But if I am going to be that cynical than I will except no kill unless it comes with a video of the shot and DNA proof that the blood on the arrow matches the deer that is found.

Zaft could be a complete lying poacher. Or he could be a regular guy like you and me that made a questionable decision in an adrenaline rushed once in a lifetime moment that triggered a snowball effect of bad luck and unanswerable questions to an honest, non-perfect kill of a world class buck.

Zaft may never be able to prove 100% that it was his buck and it was a kill, but until someone proves to me 100% that it wasn’t than I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Rack-attack, I agree with you 100% on this thread. You have made some great points.

I find it sad that a guy goes out and shoots a world class buck and has trouble finding it, and now half of this msg board wants to call the deer a pick-up and give the guy no credit. I know good and well that almost every single person on this board would claim that deer as their kill if they knew they had put an arrow in it. To say that you wouldn't claim it or you'd just turn it in as a pick up is a dang lie. I think that 99% of the reason behind these feelings is jealously.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I guess that I am one of the few people out there who actually believes there are still some good honest folks out there and I tend to believe folks are telling the truth until I have good reason to think otherwise. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong? Maybe this guy is lying and he never shot an arrow at this deer? I guess we'll never know, I guess I'm the fool for trusting and believing ayone anymore? I am happy for this Zaft guy for being able to take this big buck. Call it a pick-up or whatever you want, I call it an awesome deer and one lucky hunter.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Rack-Attack, you have some very good points.

BUT, did your deer still have YOUR ARROW and YOUR BROADHEAD in it? Zaft couldn't show that as proof. That is one thing that I found odd. From what I have heard, he couldn't come up with the arrow or broadhead, but, wouldn't the broadhead and broken part of the be in the deer meat? I am pretty sure that the coyotes wouldn't eat a razor sharp broadhead. I never said that this deer was definetly shot out of season, it just seems strange that there is that much velvet on the antlers. When you think of archery hunting, you thinking of getting ready, waiting for a deer, standing up and waiting for the perfect shot, shooting, looking for the deer, and FINDING IT by yourself, or with your hunting partners help. That is what I think archery hunting is, the FACT is that Zaft didn't find this deer. Here is something that HE PERSONALLY said. He said that &quot;if he wouldn't have heard about the deer from the farmer, he would NEVER have found that buck&quot;. So, why should he get the credit for this buck? He was INCREDIBLY lucky. Thats it. PURE LUCK. Zaft's website is another joke. He is selling mounts of his buck. I have had a post on here about that before. He is in it for the money, thats all. His web site makes him out to look like the best archer on this earth. They show him in his &quot;full draw pose&quot;. It is a joke. This guy is a joke, him &quot;recovering&quot; the deer is a joke, and him having the possible world record is a joke.

TxCowboy, this is the only buck that I have EVER questioned and that is simply because there is barely any proof that his arrow was what killed this deer. Here is a little situation for you, in the middle of archery season you shoot a HUGE buck, maybe 180 class typical, you loose track of him, you search for a couple days and can't find him. Well, about a week or so later you find it laying on the side of the road. Do you pick it up and claim it? It is the same situation.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

&quot; It didn’t lay in a field to die it was pushed there by Coyotes, maybe even dragged there .. &quot;

Thats speculation, there is no proof of that.

&quot; Did Zaft take an iffy shot? Yes. But I have also and so have most of you. Does that preclude that any deer recovered from a low percentage shot is automatically a pickup? No&quot;

Not automatically, no, but it does provide evidence that the shot did not kill that buck within 100 or even 200 yards of where it was shot - like a lung shot or even a liver shot deer would have expired. This deer was hit poorly and went farther than Zaft could find it in 3 seperate times looking for it, am I right ?

&quot; Zaft could be a complete lying poacher. Or he could be a regular guy like you and me that made a questionable decision in an adrenaline rushed once in a lifetime moment that triggered a snowball effect of bad luck and unanswerable questions to an honest, non-perfect kill of a world class buck.

Zaft may never be able to prove 100% that it was his buck and it was a kill, but until someone proves to me 100% that it wasn’t than I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

First off, Zaft is a professional target shooter, hes killed several P&Y deer, he KNOWS big deer, knew what this deers potential was and took a poor shot - not an average hunter, is he ?

TxCowboy - My question to you - how did he recover this animal ? I mean, he didn't find it at the end of a blood trail, did he ? heck, he didn't even find the carcass with the help of magpies and crows - someone else found it and was gracious enough to give the head to him.

I believe its Zaft's deer. I would have it wounted if I were him. Should it replace Mel Johnsons world record, a deer that was shot well and recovered by the hunter who shot it ? I don't think it should, because Zaft never recovered this deer.

Buck Magnet - If I aint mistaken, Zafts arrow passed through. I think its odd that coyotes ate almost the whole deer that night - I've never heard of this. Coyotes start at the hams/guts and work forward, right ? Unless there were 30 coyotes on him, how would they eat the whole carcass in just a few hours ??

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Buck-Magnet, Let me start of by saying I completely understand the controversy and doubt surrounding this buck. If it was revealed tomorrow that the buck was poached or found and this whole thing is a hoax I would not be surprised, I would not put that past a lot of people, taking in consideration the money at stake. With the information given though, at this point I consider it a kill.

You are right that he would of never found the deer without the farmer and it was pure luck. I think our main disagreement stems from my opening question for this topic: When does a kill become a pickup? It seems no one has a definitive answer for that and I suppose it is open to interpretation as their are many variables.

It seems you feel that this “luck” factor is only a determination of ones effort and should be held in check accordingly. I feel all successful hunters are lucky, but that luck is usually a direct byproduct of hard work dedication and love for the sport and for the most part is dealt to us in a proportional ratio. But there are times when one hunters luck far exceeds the luck of another and I cannot fault him for that.. You are right in the fact that Zaft exceeded his fair ratio of luck on that day when the farmer found his deer but I feel he used an even more ridiculous amount of luck just to see a buck that caliber let alone get a shot at it. I cannot take that kill away from him just because he was incredibly lucky, Twice.

Those deer I found did not have an arrow in them and that is my point. There are many pass through fatal hits on deer that do not leave good blood trails or almost no blood trails at all. Many, many deer are found after a trail has been lost and the hunter is spot searching likely areas the deer may have gone. Ther is no arrow, no direct uninterrupted blood trail leading back the shot. Odds are it is the SAME deer but put these kills under scrutiny and there is a chance that you found someone else’s deer.

I lost a real good buck because of bad a decision or bad luck or both and I took the next day off and half a day off the next day, my dad even took a day off. We never found that brute but if someone else happened to find him on that second day and lead me to it I would have been the happiest and luckiest hunter in the world. I wouldn’t of even considered if it was a kill or not, that would have been my buck, period.

We as bowhunters get bad luck dealt to us regularly and are stoic in its presence. I don’t discount the factor luck plays in our sport and I will not penalize those who have more of it than me.

If lady luck finally gives me a whole countries worth of luck all on one chilly November mourning, I will accept it with a smile and with my head held high, after all I deserved it.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Just because he was able to tag it and claim it as his own does not mean that P&Y will accept the buck as meeting their entry guidelines.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
It wont get in the P&Y regardless to the situation. His bow had a letoff of more then 65%.
http://buckmasters.com/Buckmasters_L...eattybuck.html

Edited by - azhunter on 02/05/2002 19:19:25

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

We don't know answers to a lot of these questions, I got the impresion he looked the wrong direction and the deer wasn't that far away. I consider it a kill, I,ve read about many deer that were alot more iffy then this one.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Is it a kill? Is it a pickup? Everyone has a right to their own opinion. Some of the questions we can answer, some we can't.

Can a group of coyotes consume an entire deer overnight?...Absolutely! check out these photos


These photos were taken in 1995 and it was the third time I have seen coyotes consume an entire deer in a matter of hours. By the way the deer in the photo was consumed overnight.

I can't fault young Zaft for the coyote issue. Any animal that is left out overnight runs the risk of being consumed in certain regions of the country. Did the coyotes kill the deer? My guess would be no, coyotes usually would not attack a buck of this size unless unusually hungry. Being that there was no snow on the ground and in early fall (Oct.8th) they shouldn't have been driven to risk injury by tangling with a buck of this stature when they could find an easier meal elsewhere. On the other hand there are no absolutes in nature, but it is unlikely that they killed the buck.

Is this the same buck he shot at? I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. It would seem absurd that one would not recognize the velvet tangle around the antlers in identifying the animal. One way we would know for sure is if the DNA (has it really come to this? <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>) on the arrow that passed through the buck was matched with the animal itself.

As to recovery time; It is still unclear to me the time line between the shot and recovery. The article in Whitetail is rather vague as to when the buck was recovered. From one persective it reads like it was found the next day, but could be interpreted as two days later. I do not know the facts, on the time line, perhaps someone can fill us in.

There is a question on the affidavite for Pope & Young asking if the deer was recovered in a reasonable amount of time after the shot. It will be interesting to see how that will be interpreted.

Also it will be interesting to see if the panel scorers with agree with Mr Paplawski's assessment that the G-2 and G-3 stem from the main beam and not from one another. I have to believe they will be in agreement, but if for some strange reason they don't it will knock the score down signicantly and out of the number one spot.

Mr. Zaft was incredibly lucky on at least two counts and I won't hold that against him. Even the best bow hunters in the world need some luck sometimes to make things come together. Lady luck smiled in his direction and it appears at this time he will be haled as the bowhunter that killed the largest typical whitetail ever taken with a bow. I don't really have a problem with that I guess. What I do find distasteful is his website and the hero status it seems to me that he has bestowed upon himself. His site gives me the feeling that our sport is all about money. Perhaps I shouldn't be so adamant about it but we see the money trend flooding through our gates and it doesn't appear to be changing.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Maybe we wouldn't question this guy's &quot;kill&quot;
or &quot;pickup&quot;, if he had not portrayed himself as some sort of &quot;great whitetail hunter&quot; as he did on his web site. Enough questions are going to come into play when an animal of this size is taken, without all the self-promoted hoopla. Maybe this should be a real learning lesson for all of us if we are ever in this situation. Some people say &quot;If i kill a buck this size, to hell with what people think of me!&quot; I'm sorry, but in my opinion, this is what gives the sport a bad name. I don't mind someone making a little cash off a great trophy, but, this guy is selling replicas of his rack?! Come on guys! I think more highly of you all than that, and hope the same in return. If I were on the Anti's side, I would be laughing at all of the help that Zaft, Rompola, and others are creating for me to bash the sport with poor sportsmanship. We are sitting here arguing amongst ourselves over a trophy of a lifetime, whether it was killed or found. And it doesn't help when a high amount of self-promotion goes with it.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

The deer would not have died if Zaft had not
put an arrow into it. It is very likely that
the buck was laying up and the coyotes came
across it and chased it out into the field.
As for Zaft making money off of it. This is
America the land of enterprise. Those antlers
are his enterprise. He isn't doing anything
wrong by capitalizing on his good fortune.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

azhunter - The bow that Zaft was using is legal for P&Y entry, Mike Beatty's was not.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

stickerpt My whole point is that he never recovered the deer. He shouldn't be allowed to entire it as a trophy when he didn't recover anything but the antlers. I may be one of the few guys that believe this, but it is RIDICULOUS that people will milk their deer for as much money as they possibly can. He is selling replicas of his mount to anybody that wants to pay for them. If I shot this deer, I wouldn't want everyone and their uncle to own a mount just like mine, would you?

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

hey ive had the same situation here dad shot one unsure shot so we waited till morning we found it but meat was ruined to the point you coulndt stay ten feet away we checked it i but coulndt keep the meat id say the zaft is on the borderline

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Doesn't matter if we believe him or not. It can't be shown this deer died of anything more than natural causes, whether those natural causes are old age or coyotes. It's very easy to say after the fact that he had velvet all over... especially since that's how you found him. I got to ask this question again. What in the world is a deer doing this late in the season with all that velvet still on him. Maybe he died weeks before.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> That should stir things.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

The thing that gets me is he went and poked around the next morning and then went to work. In my neck of the woods attendance gets pretty spotty during season. Now if you come in saying you just probably killed the next world record but can't find it you best be there looking for recruits for the search party.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

This is so funny. The circumstances around this deer are ten times as fishy as anything surrounding the Rompola Buck, yet people want to trash Rompola, and defend this guy. What gives?

I'm with davidmil, this deer could have died a few weeks before, been eaten by coyotes, and found by the farmer. Zaft may have shot a huge buck in that area, but are we sure it's this one? How do you know? I would think that with velvet just hanging like that, it hadn't been hanging there long. Therefore, I would guess this deer died within a day or two of shedding velvet. The way that stuff was dangling from the rack leads me to believe that a day or two of walking through the brush would have removed those dangling strips quickly.

RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
 

Lets look at it this way. The landowner who found the deer - if he wasn't a nice guy, in all reality he could have kept this rack - legally, right ? He found it, there was nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to prove it was Zafts deer, other than Zaft's word, right ? So looking at it that way, the landowner actually gave the deer's rack to Zaft - a very generous thing to do, but had he wanted, he could have kept that rack and Zaft could have done NOTHING, am I right ?

So, if Zaft couldn't prove it was his deer in that scenario, how can he prove its his deer to P&Y ??

stickerpt -&quot; The deer would not have died if Zaft had not put an arrow into it&quot;

Now, THATS what the anti-bowhunting anti-hunting groups love to hear. I doubt you meant it like &quot;Awe, shoot at it, stick it and maybe you'll get lucky and kill it&quot; but thats what it came across the computer as.

Antler Eater - I guess coyotes can then - thanks for clearing that up.