A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
01-31-2002 | 03:45 PM
#61
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Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Munising MI
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Straight,
Sometimes takes a while to get a point across, but I think were getting closer, maybe! In refference to the 3" miss-that's assuming the arrow would hit directly where you were aiming. Considering all the variables, anxiety, elevation, unseen branch, individual skill level, many of us might very well need to count on those 3 inches. That is why I say 3 inches is still a miss, it's not good enough when you figure in the complexity of making the shot itself.
There are some that 3 inches wouldn't really matter, but to many, it would make all the difference in the world considering the other additions to a bad shot.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
Sometimes takes a while to get a point across, but I think were getting closer, maybe! In refference to the 3" miss-that's assuming the arrow would hit directly where you were aiming. Considering all the variables, anxiety, elevation, unseen branch, individual skill level, many of us might very well need to count on those 3 inches. That is why I say 3 inches is still a miss, it's not good enough when you figure in the complexity of making the shot itself.
There are some that 3 inches wouldn't really matter, but to many, it would make all the difference in the world considering the other additions to a bad shot.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
01-31-2002 | 04:10 PM
#62
Thread Starter
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 501
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From: Munising MI
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Matt,
Shows how slow we humans are to deer!
Another thing, try going to a national 3D tournament-not the local yocal stuff-and see what speeds are winning the tournament. 282 rules the roost-especially in the upper classes, and the guys in the 310+ range are usually a long ways out of it.
The reason is, is accuracy. Even without a broadhead excess speed is not accurate enough to compete with, so most of the experienced shooters don't do it. Especially most of the pros, most shoot the same combo for ASA and IBO-280-282. The accuracy gains are a much better trade off for speed, especially when money is on the line. Add a broadhead and the accuracy thing goes out the window. Most bowhunters can't even begin to tune an arrow at 280 with a broadhead, let alone 320.
You are one of the few who must be able to, but most can't, and I hope articles like the one from Bill Winke don't encourage people to think they can all do what you do.
Maybe I'm just to picky about my equipment-who cares about 3 inches anyways?!
Maybe I shouldn't care if someone is mislead to beleive the can defy the survival actions of a whitetail deer-I might add they may be a bit more speedy than a humans reaction time.
I know I have an inherant flaw of trying to be as accurate as possible-maybe just my competitive nature.
I should probably learn to be a little looser and be satisfied with chances and almosts, but something inside of me just makes me want to plan and prepare to be my best.
The average shooter should not be shooting over 270 for hunting, but to each his own.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Shows how slow we humans are to deer!
Another thing, try going to a national 3D tournament-not the local yocal stuff-and see what speeds are winning the tournament. 282 rules the roost-especially in the upper classes, and the guys in the 310+ range are usually a long ways out of it.
The reason is, is accuracy. Even without a broadhead excess speed is not accurate enough to compete with, so most of the experienced shooters don't do it. Especially most of the pros, most shoot the same combo for ASA and IBO-280-282. The accuracy gains are a much better trade off for speed, especially when money is on the line. Add a broadhead and the accuracy thing goes out the window. Most bowhunters can't even begin to tune an arrow at 280 with a broadhead, let alone 320.
You are one of the few who must be able to, but most can't, and I hope articles like the one from Bill Winke don't encourage people to think they can all do what you do.
Maybe I'm just to picky about my equipment-who cares about 3 inches anyways?!
Maybe I shouldn't care if someone is mislead to beleive the can defy the survival actions of a whitetail deer-I might add they may be a bit more speedy than a humans reaction time.
I know I have an inherant flaw of trying to be as accurate as possible-maybe just my competitive nature.
I should probably learn to be a little looser and be satisfied with chances and almosts, but something inside of me just makes me want to plan and prepare to be my best.
The average shooter should not be shooting over 270 for hunting, but to each his own.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
01-31-2002 | 07:55 PM
#63
Joined: Feb 2003
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From:
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Straight,
Sometimes takes a while to get a point across, but I think were getting closer, maybe!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Jeff, I suppose it's possible, but for some reason I don't feel like it's happening.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
In refference to the 3" miss-that's assuming the arrow would hit directly where you were aiming. Considering all the variables, anxiety, elevation, unseen branch, individual skill level, many of us might very well need to count on those 3 inches. That is why I say 3 inches is still a miss, it's not good enough when you figure in the complexity of making the shot itself. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Two things - first many of these inaccurate shooters will miss in the direction of the movement and will actually hit dead on. Also, aiming towards the bottom of the kill zone will increase the chances of a good hit with movement, which almost always goes down first. Two, if you're missing by 3" or more at 10 yards, then you have no business hunting big game with a bow. That equate to at least a 6" miss at 20 yards and a 9" miss at 30 yards. This means that even if the deer is stationary and never moves a muscle, this type of shooting will result in many wounded and lost deer. If you can't shoot a 1" group at 10 yards - you probably shouldn't be hunting.
A person who is capable of getting within an inch of what they're aiming at, on a 10 yard shot, is going to make a killing shot on every deer at that range, jumping the string or not. Just my opinion.
Straight,
Sometimes takes a while to get a point across, but I think were getting closer, maybe!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Jeff, I suppose it's possible, but for some reason I don't feel like it's happening.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
In refference to the 3" miss-that's assuming the arrow would hit directly where you were aiming. Considering all the variables, anxiety, elevation, unseen branch, individual skill level, many of us might very well need to count on those 3 inches. That is why I say 3 inches is still a miss, it's not good enough when you figure in the complexity of making the shot itself. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Two things - first many of these inaccurate shooters will miss in the direction of the movement and will actually hit dead on. Also, aiming towards the bottom of the kill zone will increase the chances of a good hit with movement, which almost always goes down first. Two, if you're missing by 3" or more at 10 yards, then you have no business hunting big game with a bow. That equate to at least a 6" miss at 20 yards and a 9" miss at 30 yards. This means that even if the deer is stationary and never moves a muscle, this type of shooting will result in many wounded and lost deer. If you can't shoot a 1" group at 10 yards - you probably shouldn't be hunting.
A person who is capable of getting within an inch of what they're aiming at, on a 10 yard shot, is going to make a killing shot on every deer at that range, jumping the string or not. Just my opinion.
01-31-2002 | 08:10 PM
#64
Thread Starter
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 501
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From: Munising MI
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Straight,
A 1" group at 10 yards?! You just eliminated half of Michigan's bowhunters! What's the state going to do without those license sales? <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
How bout we just agree to disagree-this topic's kind of dragging out, I have a new one in mind and I can only focus on one thing. Someday we might even agree on a topic!! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
A 1" group at 10 yards?! You just eliminated half of Michigan's bowhunters! What's the state going to do without those license sales? <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
How bout we just agree to disagree-this topic's kind of dragging out, I have a new one in mind and I can only focus on one thing. Someday we might even agree on a topic!! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
01-31-2002 | 10:51 PM
#65
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,634
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From: HENDERSON KY USA
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
I will admit that I havn't read all of this thread but I think I get the main jist of it.
My thoughts are that when someone misses a deer by shooting over it that they automatically assume the deer ducked the string.Guess what,most of the time they are just clean misses due to addrenaline or misjudged yardage.
Here is a simple test for you.Go out on your practice target at 20 yards and shoot a good shot and then shoot by hitting the trigger real hard.You will see that your hammer release will have a much higher impact(most of the time) and I feel this happens a lot in the woods,combine this with the fact that even with a bow shooting 260,if you shoot a 15 yard deer for 20 that you will be about 2" high anyway.Add the 2" to a hammered release and the result is a clean miss.
Now I am not saying deer do not or can not react to a noisy bow but the problem has been blown out of proportion IMO.It doesn't take much to get a bow quiet enough to hunt with,remember that deer have weird noises going on around them all the time.
A faster bow will help in fighting the reaction time a deer has to duck,that is just plain old common sense and I don't need physics or science to prove or disprove it.If i'm shooting 270 fps and someone beside me is shooting 180 fps,that is 90 fps faster,that means if the arrow travels for a full 1 second that my arrow will be 30 yards farther.This is not accounting for the differences in speed losses of heavier arrows over lighter arrows,lighter arrows slow down faster but heavier arrows need more fletching and more spin causing more drag and that basically cancels each other out.
Hope that I didn't get into anything that has already been pointed out.
Just practice on making good shots in high pressure situations and this subject will be a relative nonissue.Friends can help with this,if most friends are like mine they will not make shooting any easier. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
My thoughts are that when someone misses a deer by shooting over it that they automatically assume the deer ducked the string.Guess what,most of the time they are just clean misses due to addrenaline or misjudged yardage.
Here is a simple test for you.Go out on your practice target at 20 yards and shoot a good shot and then shoot by hitting the trigger real hard.You will see that your hammer release will have a much higher impact(most of the time) and I feel this happens a lot in the woods,combine this with the fact that even with a bow shooting 260,if you shoot a 15 yard deer for 20 that you will be about 2" high anyway.Add the 2" to a hammered release and the result is a clean miss.
Now I am not saying deer do not or can not react to a noisy bow but the problem has been blown out of proportion IMO.It doesn't take much to get a bow quiet enough to hunt with,remember that deer have weird noises going on around them all the time.
A faster bow will help in fighting the reaction time a deer has to duck,that is just plain old common sense and I don't need physics or science to prove or disprove it.If i'm shooting 270 fps and someone beside me is shooting 180 fps,that is 90 fps faster,that means if the arrow travels for a full 1 second that my arrow will be 30 yards farther.This is not accounting for the differences in speed losses of heavier arrows over lighter arrows,lighter arrows slow down faster but heavier arrows need more fletching and more spin causing more drag and that basically cancels each other out.
Hope that I didn't get into anything that has already been pointed out.
Just practice on making good shots in high pressure situations and this subject will be a relative nonissue.Friends can help with this,if most friends are like mine they will not make shooting any easier. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
02-01-2002 | 08:14 AM
#66
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 649
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From: Almost Heaven WV
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Ok, here are my numbers...
20yds = 60ft
speed of sound = 1120fps
time for sound for travel 60ft = 60/1120 = .05sec.
Let's use Bill's reaction time of .05sec..
That gives the deer .1sec to hear the niose and begin to react. The arrow is already 30 ft and closing in on the deer...
Now here is my data: My videotape shows the deer dropping actually more than 18" but we'll use 18"...In slo-mo frame by frame it took seven frames to the lowest point of the drop. Each frame (and I asked an expert on cameras this) represents 1/30 sec...That says that she dropped 18" in 7/30 or .230sec
At 300fps the arrow is already half way there.
It's going to take another .1 sec for the arrow to travel another 30 ft...The doe would be 7.8" into the drop....
At 250fps the arrow has traveled only 25 ft and has another 35ft to go..it will reach her in .14sec and she'll be nearly 11" into the drop..
If you are aiming at the middle of the torso at broadside, the 250fps arrow will miss completely and the 300fps arrow will spine her at best.
At 10yds the numbers are less dramatic:
The 300fps arrow will reach the deer that is 1.8" into a drop and the 250fps arrow reaches her ar 3.4" into the drop. Both numbers can cause a wounding shot..
Now do this from a treestand and that 1.8" or 3.4" drop has an added angle to contend with...
Bottom line...nervous deer...aim a little low..I hold on the lower 1/3 of the torso..
These scenarios, of course, apply only if nothing else comes into play....and we all know that lots of other things can and do happen....
20yds = 60ft
speed of sound = 1120fps
time for sound for travel 60ft = 60/1120 = .05sec.
Let's use Bill's reaction time of .05sec..
That gives the deer .1sec to hear the niose and begin to react. The arrow is already 30 ft and closing in on the deer...
Now here is my data: My videotape shows the deer dropping actually more than 18" but we'll use 18"...In slo-mo frame by frame it took seven frames to the lowest point of the drop. Each frame (and I asked an expert on cameras this) represents 1/30 sec...That says that she dropped 18" in 7/30 or .230sec
At 300fps the arrow is already half way there.
It's going to take another .1 sec for the arrow to travel another 30 ft...The doe would be 7.8" into the drop....
At 250fps the arrow has traveled only 25 ft and has another 35ft to go..it will reach her in .14sec and she'll be nearly 11" into the drop..
If you are aiming at the middle of the torso at broadside, the 250fps arrow will miss completely and the 300fps arrow will spine her at best.
At 10yds the numbers are less dramatic:
The 300fps arrow will reach the deer that is 1.8" into a drop and the 250fps arrow reaches her ar 3.4" into the drop. Both numbers can cause a wounding shot..
Now do this from a treestand and that 1.8" or 3.4" drop has an added angle to contend with...
Bottom line...nervous deer...aim a little low..I hold on the lower 1/3 of the torso..
These scenarios, of course, apply only if nothing else comes into play....and we all know that lots of other things can and do happen....
02-01-2002 | 09:20 AM
#68
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 649
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From: Almost Heaven WV
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
So now, to answer your original question more accurately:
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=red>
How fast does an arrow have to be to fool the reaction time of a whitetail deer in less than 10 yards?</font id=red><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
The sound of a release will get to the deer in .027sec. Deer's raction time is 0.05sec.
0.05 + .027 = .077 sec before reaction takes place at 10yds.
30ft/.077sec = 389.6fps
The deer will hear the noise and not have a nanosecond to react....
At 20 yds you'd best be pushing 600fps...
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=red>
How fast does an arrow have to be to fool the reaction time of a whitetail deer in less than 10 yards?</font id=red><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
The sound of a release will get to the deer in .027sec. Deer's raction time is 0.05sec.
0.05 + .027 = .077 sec before reaction takes place at 10yds.
30ft/.077sec = 389.6fps
The deer will hear the noise and not have a nanosecond to react....
At 20 yds you'd best be pushing 600fps...
02-01-2002 | 09:53 AM
#70
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From:
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Cyclone,
Thanks for getting that info. Hopefully your analysis is reasonably accurate. If so, it appears that you have pretty much verified that it is impossible for a deer to move out of the way at 10 yards of a well aimed arrow going fast.
I have a question though, that I don't know the answer to. I've never personally measured this, so anyone who has please respond. I hear that the average height of a whitetail is 36" at the shoulder. I've also heard the figure of 18" for the depth of the body. Now, to fall 18" would require the deer to hit the ground with the chest when bolting. I've witnessed deer going down quite low, but I don't think I've ever seen one get any closer than 6" of the ground when bolting (judging this by the videos I've watched. What is everyone elses take on this?
One more comment. My opinion is that at 10 yards, a miss of 1.8" is going to result in a kill everytime from someone reasonably accurate. The 3.4" drop with the slower arrow will require aiming towards the bottom of the kill to assure a kill every time.
Thanks for getting that info. Hopefully your analysis is reasonably accurate. If so, it appears that you have pretty much verified that it is impossible for a deer to move out of the way at 10 yards of a well aimed arrow going fast.
I have a question though, that I don't know the answer to. I've never personally measured this, so anyone who has please respond. I hear that the average height of a whitetail is 36" at the shoulder. I've also heard the figure of 18" for the depth of the body. Now, to fall 18" would require the deer to hit the ground with the chest when bolting. I've witnessed deer going down quite low, but I don't think I've ever seen one get any closer than 6" of the ground when bolting (judging this by the videos I've watched. What is everyone elses take on this?
One more comment. My opinion is that at 10 yards, a miss of 1.8" is going to result in a kill everytime from someone reasonably accurate. The 3.4" drop with the slower arrow will require aiming towards the bottom of the kill to assure a kill every time.