Rocket Ultimate Steel???
08-05-2003, 12:40 PM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Rocket Ultimate Steel???
I have a new dozen of the heads. Ferrule and blades appear to be quite strong. However, I am having to do some modifying to the length of the threaded ferrule post. Barely 3-4 threads engage the female insert. What shaft was your friend using the heads on?
08-05-2003, 07:35 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vinton VA
Posts: 2,978
RE: Rocket Ultimate Steel???
Well the 75 grn heads shed blades like water off a ducks back. The new and improved black ferule 100' s are much better, but still can be prone to blade loss on severe impacts. I have not tested the 125' s yet. I think Rocket improved the 100' s to be at least a decent head, but it is pretty small.
08-05-2003, 07:52 PM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Rocket Ultimate Steel???
CJW:
Thank you for the " kick in the butt." I had been messing with my " Ultimate Steels," but had got off on some other projects and was behind time determining if I was going to get the broadheads to work and did they pass (my) quality test. Your thread gave me the boost I needed and I just completed the task.
Although you did not say you are considering using the " Ultimate Steels," and that you were wanting input from those who have used the heads; although I have not yet used the heads under actual field conditions, I will relate to you what I have determined, and has convinced me that I will be using the head this season.
ROCKET ULTIMATE STEEL 125 Gr. 3-blade
I determined what quality the head appears to be by a simple, and definitely unscientific, experiment. What I did does not determine " shock" force, just load pressure. However, I believe it gives a fairly good idea of how the head will likely perform on " headlfirst" (frontal) impact.
1. I solved the problem with the length of the ferrule post by using an insert with a thinner collar. Now engages well enough to hold the head, especially after the post is treated with " LocTite. #243."
I secure the posts of my heads in the insert using the " LocTite -#243." I also used to use the #243 in the blade channel, but this year I am going to use the " LocTite Instant Adhesive 410 Gap Filling" for the blade channel. Doing this makes for a very secure head. When I want to change the ferrule or the blades, I just soak the entire head in a can of " Acetone" until the adhesives dissolve.
2. Determining how secure the blades are in the ferrule.
a. After tightening head in the insert, I did not detect any degree of side-wobble or forward and backward movement within the channel.
b. Suspended 13.01 pounds from the blade and let hang for 1 hour. Blade did not move or disengage.
c. Without retightening the head, I suspended 29.04 pounds from the blade and let hang for 1 hour. Blade did not move or disengage.
d. Without retightening the head, I suspended 42.05 pounds from the blade and let hang for 1 hour. Blade did not move or disengage.
2. Determining strength of blade when pressure applied to side of blade.
a. Suspended 13.01 pounds off blade sitting a 90-degree angle. Blade did not bend or break
b. Suspended 29.04 pounds off blade sitting a 90-degree angle. Blade did not bend or break because insert turned within shaft. Because the insert turned, the weight was not on the blade at 90-degrees but briefly. Even so, the blade did not snap. However, when the insert/broadhead turned, the sudden dropping of the weight (29.04) still did not disengage the blade from the ferrule.
3. Rough idea of penetration capabilities.
a. Using a " leathered" and stiff (sinewy) deer hide from last season, and a 12" (cut) section of a 2315 aluminum shaft, from 6 feet from the hide I threw the shaft section mounted with the broadhead, at the hide as you would throw a knife. Broadhead easily and cleanly penetrated the hide for approx. 4" past the back of the head.
I have no idea what speed was developed by hand-throwing from 6 feet, or what the KE was, but I don' t have to tell you that I am sure neither registered on the scale in comparison to being shot from a bow.
I am not impressed with the company' s (Rocket) service, but I am impressed with my findings. I am fairly excited about using this head this season. Not (mainly) because of the obvious durability and penetration capability, but because the low-profile will probably perform near to a fieldpoint in flight, and the low profile may allow me to reduce my fletch size from 5" to 4 " . That means improved fletch clearance.
If you want to see some photos of the experiment, just click on the below listed link and click on a pic to enlarge.
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/c90...c=ph%26.view=t
Thank you for the " kick in the butt." I had been messing with my " Ultimate Steels," but had got off on some other projects and was behind time determining if I was going to get the broadheads to work and did they pass (my) quality test. Your thread gave me the boost I needed and I just completed the task.
Although you did not say you are considering using the " Ultimate Steels," and that you were wanting input from those who have used the heads; although I have not yet used the heads under actual field conditions, I will relate to you what I have determined, and has convinced me that I will be using the head this season.
ROCKET ULTIMATE STEEL 125 Gr. 3-blade
I determined what quality the head appears to be by a simple, and definitely unscientific, experiment. What I did does not determine " shock" force, just load pressure. However, I believe it gives a fairly good idea of how the head will likely perform on " headlfirst" (frontal) impact.
1. I solved the problem with the length of the ferrule post by using an insert with a thinner collar. Now engages well enough to hold the head, especially after the post is treated with " LocTite. #243."
I secure the posts of my heads in the insert using the " LocTite -#243." I also used to use the #243 in the blade channel, but this year I am going to use the " LocTite Instant Adhesive 410 Gap Filling" for the blade channel. Doing this makes for a very secure head. When I want to change the ferrule or the blades, I just soak the entire head in a can of " Acetone" until the adhesives dissolve.
2. Determining how secure the blades are in the ferrule.
a. After tightening head in the insert, I did not detect any degree of side-wobble or forward and backward movement within the channel.
b. Suspended 13.01 pounds from the blade and let hang for 1 hour. Blade did not move or disengage.
c. Without retightening the head, I suspended 29.04 pounds from the blade and let hang for 1 hour. Blade did not move or disengage.
d. Without retightening the head, I suspended 42.05 pounds from the blade and let hang for 1 hour. Blade did not move or disengage.
2. Determining strength of blade when pressure applied to side of blade.
a. Suspended 13.01 pounds off blade sitting a 90-degree angle. Blade did not bend or break
b. Suspended 29.04 pounds off blade sitting a 90-degree angle. Blade did not bend or break because insert turned within shaft. Because the insert turned, the weight was not on the blade at 90-degrees but briefly. Even so, the blade did not snap. However, when the insert/broadhead turned, the sudden dropping of the weight (29.04) still did not disengage the blade from the ferrule.
3. Rough idea of penetration capabilities.
a. Using a " leathered" and stiff (sinewy) deer hide from last season, and a 12" (cut) section of a 2315 aluminum shaft, from 6 feet from the hide I threw the shaft section mounted with the broadhead, at the hide as you would throw a knife. Broadhead easily and cleanly penetrated the hide for approx. 4" past the back of the head.
I have no idea what speed was developed by hand-throwing from 6 feet, or what the KE was, but I don' t have to tell you that I am sure neither registered on the scale in comparison to being shot from a bow.
I am not impressed with the company' s (Rocket) service, but I am impressed with my findings. I am fairly excited about using this head this season. Not (mainly) because of the obvious durability and penetration capability, but because the low-profile will probably perform near to a fieldpoint in flight, and the low profile may allow me to reduce my fletch size from 5" to 4 " . That means improved fletch clearance.
If you want to see some photos of the experiment, just click on the below listed link and click on a pic to enlarge.
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/c90...c=ph%26.view=t
08-05-2003, 08:46 PM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Yapank NY USA
Posts: 3,457
RE: Rocket Ultimate Steel???
Man, after reading how you tested that head I had to go back and make sure that you were the same member that started that bonebuster/ unbreakable / anecdotal thread
I have been shooting the 75 grain Ultimates. In fact they are from the same pack that 5-shot tested
. After at least 20 or 30 shots into my 3d target I have not had any blade loss. Even shot it through some .090 steel and they stayed together. They are super sharp, they fly very well, and seem tough to me - maybe that tire is a real ripper for broadheads - I don' t know. They are awful small though - there cut dia is about an inch - but the blades themselves are tiny.
probably won' t use them - but cant see them being that bad for deer.
I have been shooting the 75 grain Ultimates. In fact they are from the same pack that 5-shot tested
. After at least 20 or 30 shots into my 3d target I have not had any blade loss. Even shot it through some .090 steel and they stayed together. They are super sharp, they fly very well, and seem tough to me - maybe that tire is a real ripper for broadheads - I don' t know. They are awful small though - there cut dia is about an inch - but the blades themselves are tiny.probably won' t use them - but cant see them being that bad for deer.
08-06-2003, 02:21 AM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Rocket Ultimate Steel???
I have used heads with similar sized blades and have never attributed any problems to the blade size. If the head hits in the " pan," the deer is in as much trouble as if hit by a larger blade. I do not suppose you ever heard of the " Missile Spike?"
How about the original " Wasp Broadfield" It was a 125 grain, three-bladed head with an aluminum ferrule. The blades were modified " Schick" injector blades with a 1-1/16 inch cutting diameter. Most of the blade was buried in the ferrule, only a small portion created the cut. That head brought down many deer. I knocked down a 240 lb, 8-point buck with a " Broadfield," shot from a 51 lb. recurve.
What is the difference between 1-1/16th and 1-1/8th (a common size)? 1/16th. What is the difference between 1-1/16th and 1-3/16th? 1/8th. I will give up 1/16" or 1/8" for better aerodynamics and flight.
What drew my attention to the Rocket Ultimate Steel, were the price I paid and the design. Steel ferrule, heavy gauge stainless steel blades, and a short ferrule. As soon as the ferrule punches through, the blades are very close behind and cutting. Almost a quasi-cut-on-contact blade, but with a " Trocar" tipped ferrule and replaceable blades.
If everything goes as planned this season, I will know if the field performance of the head coincides with what I believe the head can do.
How about the original " Wasp Broadfield" It was a 125 grain, three-bladed head with an aluminum ferrule. The blades were modified " Schick" injector blades with a 1-1/16 inch cutting diameter. Most of the blade was buried in the ferrule, only a small portion created the cut. That head brought down many deer. I knocked down a 240 lb, 8-point buck with a " Broadfield," shot from a 51 lb. recurve.
What is the difference between 1-1/16th and 1-1/8th (a common size)? 1/16th. What is the difference between 1-1/16th and 1-3/16th? 1/8th. I will give up 1/16" or 1/8" for better aerodynamics and flight.
What drew my attention to the Rocket Ultimate Steel, were the price I paid and the design. Steel ferrule, heavy gauge stainless steel blades, and a short ferrule. As soon as the ferrule punches through, the blades are very close behind and cutting. Almost a quasi-cut-on-contact blade, but with a " Trocar" tipped ferrule and replaceable blades.
If everything goes as planned this season, I will know if the field performance of the head coincides with what I believe the head can do.
08-06-2003, 08:51 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: Rocket Ultimate Steel???
c903, I' m confused as to why you feel testing the heads in the manner you did correlates to their potential for blade retention during a frontal impact? Perhaps I simply misunderstood your explanation of your methodology...
I understood you to say that you suspended weight from the head with the ferrule horizontal with the blade the weight was attached to being straight down. Is this correct?
If so, wouldn' t such testing more accurately duplicate pressures the blades are likely to encounter if the ferrule was vertical and the weight suspended of the back of the blades? Otherwise, I think the test simply tells you that the blade retention lips are strong as long as they are properly supported by the tip and ferrule collar.
If my understanding is correct, perhaps a retest would yield different results as 5-shots previous testing have supported? But perhaps not, based on Rack' s experience in 3-d foam...
I understood you to say that you suspended weight from the head with the ferrule horizontal with the blade the weight was attached to being straight down. Is this correct?
If so, wouldn' t such testing more accurately duplicate pressures the blades are likely to encounter if the ferrule was vertical and the weight suspended of the back of the blades? Otherwise, I think the test simply tells you that the blade retention lips are strong as long as they are properly supported by the tip and ferrule collar.
If my understanding is correct, perhaps a retest would yield different results as 5-shots previous testing have supported? But perhaps not, based on Rack' s experience in 3-d foam...
08-06-2003, 12:13 PM
#10
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Rocket Ultimate Steel???
Rangeball:
Your question is totally appropriate, because I did do as you have asked about. But, because I was just (quickly) experimenting using a " backyard" facility, with no intent to get real technical, I did not consider that a " hanging load" of 13 lbs would represent frontal shock to any degree, so why consider it. Since I am more interested how the head will perform for personal use, even if it requires modification, I decided to determine what the heads would do at impact when actually shot into a medium. Therefore, I am going to shoot the heads after I have applied the adhesives I mentioned
My actual reason for roughly assessing the quality of the broadhead was mainly to show four other bowhunters who I hunt with. We have been using a different brand and type for quite sometime with good success. They too believe if it is not broken, do not fix it. However I can get these heads at a very good price, and they do have some features that I consider may be advantageous over some other heads. A fellow hunter is coming over today with a new bow and shafts. He bought some Zwickeys, Wensels, and still has his Cabela Pro Mags. I hurried so that I can prepare some of the " Rocket" heads for him to mount so that he can shoot the " Rockets" also. I just wanted to know if there was (initially) an obvious problem with these " Rockets" as not to waste time and effort.
I must admit that I am concerned about the blade channel. The channel is sloped upward to front of the head (not a constant depth). If shooting the head reveals that the incline at the front of the blade groove is a problem, two of the shooters I hunt with are mechanical engineers and have access to the equipment that can deepen the front of the groove. I know this may sound excessive to you, but the design of the head, the material the ferrule and blades are made of, the expected flight characteristic, and the low cost, makes it worthwhile…. to me.
As for how the heads would perform on wood, steel, and hard rubber, it would be hypocritical on my part to consider the results of an out-of-box experiment using those mediums.
If these heads fail, or show any sighgns of failing, when shot into a compressed Styrofoam target and a 3D deer, I will be the first to let you know. If they fail, it will not be the first time that I thought something would/could do, but failed. No pain, no gain!
Your question is totally appropriate, because I did do as you have asked about. But, because I was just (quickly) experimenting using a " backyard" facility, with no intent to get real technical, I did not consider that a " hanging load" of 13 lbs would represent frontal shock to any degree, so why consider it. Since I am more interested how the head will perform for personal use, even if it requires modification, I decided to determine what the heads would do at impact when actually shot into a medium. Therefore, I am going to shoot the heads after I have applied the adhesives I mentioned
My actual reason for roughly assessing the quality of the broadhead was mainly to show four other bowhunters who I hunt with. We have been using a different brand and type for quite sometime with good success. They too believe if it is not broken, do not fix it. However I can get these heads at a very good price, and they do have some features that I consider may be advantageous over some other heads. A fellow hunter is coming over today with a new bow and shafts. He bought some Zwickeys, Wensels, and still has his Cabela Pro Mags. I hurried so that I can prepare some of the " Rocket" heads for him to mount so that he can shoot the " Rockets" also. I just wanted to know if there was (initially) an obvious problem with these " Rockets" as not to waste time and effort.
I must admit that I am concerned about the blade channel. The channel is sloped upward to front of the head (not a constant depth). If shooting the head reveals that the incline at the front of the blade groove is a problem, two of the shooters I hunt with are mechanical engineers and have access to the equipment that can deepen the front of the groove. I know this may sound excessive to you, but the design of the head, the material the ferrule and blades are made of, the expected flight characteristic, and the low cost, makes it worthwhile…. to me.
As for how the heads would perform on wood, steel, and hard rubber, it would be hypocritical on my part to consider the results of an out-of-box experiment using those mediums.
If these heads fail, or show any sighgns of failing, when shot into a compressed Styrofoam target and a 3D deer, I will be the first to let you know. If they fail, it will not be the first time that I thought something would/could do, but failed. No pain, no gain!