[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

You mean this one?

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

That' s ridiculous. Mathews must really be feeling the pressure from Hoyt, why else go to such measures to bash a rival. Sad, Sad.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

I don' t see anything wrong with it, just sounds like Mathews standing up for their product, and contesting some of Hoyt' s claims, that they found to be untrue. No different from the Chevy is better than Ford is better than Dodge is better than Toyota commercials. Sounds like normal advertising to me.
Charlie

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Wow, I can' t believe that. I am a mathews fan, but if they can' t find anything better to do than totally bash the competition, good for them[:-];) No really, if they can' t run a two page add on their new bows and be able to sell, then they better come up with something new.

A 2 page ad bashing the competition seems a little grade schoolish to me. But what do I know? Don' t answer that Frank!!

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

I' m a Mathews Fan but I am also very logical. Advertising is advertising but if Hoyt' s claim is false as it appears to be then the adds substantiating that claim are fair and proper and responsible. If however in the bashing claim of Mathews is proven in error then Hoyt has the obligation and responsibility to refute that claim.

In the end I' ll still be a Mathews Fan . . . they work as great for me as the Hoyt' s do for their owners.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Settle down gents.

The current pi$$ing match is just that. Let’s look at what’s occurred here.

If I might be so BOLD. As an admitted technical bow fanatic with ton of test equipment, (High Speed Video Cameras, Shooting Machines, Apple Tuning Machine, Lasers, etc.) I test bows constantly and can tell you one thing. ALL of THE MANUFACTURERS are FULL of some Bull$**T in their ads.

I have current Hoyt' s, Mathew' s, Bowtechs, Dartons, Martins, and many others.

What Mathew' s is saying IS true in my opinion. But so what! They all say their bows need no tuning and they are all full of it! Most say that their bows are faster than they really are. Pat notice that I said most.

A Mathew’s, like any other bow needs to first be bench setup with a Laser to insure that side to side as well as vertical nock travel is as square and plumb as it can be made to be. Guess what...so do all the others if you want them to perform at their best!

Hoyt had developed a terrific riser in the Tec series and also had great limbs, but had second-rate cam performance. The light went on and they borrowed Darton’s cam designs and now have a very nice combination of having a cam worthy of their riser and limbs. Now originally Hoyt denied borrowing Darton’s design but as you can now easily ascertain Hoyt is paying royalties to Darton. The fact that Hoyt’s cam designs had previously left something to be desired takes nothing from their fine riser and limb designs, but let’s face it, the cam +1/2 is basically Darton’s. This has proved to be a fine marriage of components. Is it perfect?…nah, but pretty darn good and like the best Mathew’s and Bowtechs, the bows will outshoot the shooters. On the other hand Mathew’s ads can be backed up empirically. But who cares as the bows can outshoot the shooter.

Mathew’s has had nothing revolutionary in the last couple of years from my point of view, but again; so what? They have a highly refined and excellent shooting design with the exception of their grips IOHO. Does this mean that their bows aren’t the equal of the Hoyts….Nah, but we all like something new don’t we. That is what drives sales in the archery industry. Many of the world’s great bow hunters wouldn’t trade their MQ1s or Havotecs for anything. But back to the ad; is the Mathew’s ad truthful….IOHO YUP.

Bowtech makes exquisite bows that are a little tough on the draw for the average Joe, but are as accurate as any bow that we have ever tested. They have refined their grip this year and are truly fine pieces of equipment. I assure you that Bowtech could teach Hoyt a thing or two about cam design, but again all cams are a series of compromises.

The guy looking for Darton’s or Hoyt’s ultra smooth draw may not care for the harsher draw of the Bowtech, but if you were in fine shape and shooting at mule deer at long ranges the Bowtechs are every bit as accurate and might have an edge on the Hoyts.

So what does it all boil down to? Well Hoyt’s real coup is in their grip and riser if you ask us. The cam +1/2 is fine, but not perfect. It is on the other hand superior to what Hoyt had been offering cam wise.

Darton makes a great cam, but their risers and limbs are not the equal of Hoyt in our opinion, they shoot very, very well, but are loud and a little ugly in my opinion.

Mathews makes a fine riser and a lovely shooting bow. Their SL cams are terrific. IOHO what Mathews need is to simply narrow their grips. The Q2XL is one heck of an accurate bow.

I guess that in parting I might point out that Tiger Woods manages to prevail fairly often-using golf clubs that are by all accounts honestly considered to be inferior to what the other pros are using. There is consensus on this, but by God he seems to pull the rabbit out of the hat doesn’t he.

Bottom Line…Hoyt, Mathews, Bowtech are all much more capable that most of us are. A smooth draw cycle doesn’t insure accuracy any more than lack of hand shock does. Good consistent nock travel and a torque-free, grips do.
Most archers will gain far more from supertuning their bows than they will from making a new purchase, but then again selling you a new bow is what adverting is all about isn’t it? It is also a lot of fun for the purchaser. I say, have a few bows from each of these manufactures and then come back and tell me that you don’t love’em all, but for different reasons.

If I could only have three bows, I would have a Q2XL, an Ultratec, and a PRO 40. As you can tell, there is not a short bow in the bunch, but there are three real shooters! (my fourth would be a Darton Maverick Recurve..Loud and not too pretty, but what a shooter)

Forget the ads and shoot the bows, you will want one of each. Just be glad that there are these fine manufactures making these great products for us to all enjoy.

OK I’ll get off the stump.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Big post about it on Archery Talk.I was picking up my new Bowtech VFT EXTR. when I pointed it out to the guys.Very SAD and I can' t believe they would resort to this and hopefully Hoyt does not run an ad back at them.Hoyt is taking alot of sales away from Mathews. United together we are stronger against anti' s and we do not need this stuff.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Nubbb,

That post of yours looks familiar....especially that reference to Pat....:D

Seriously though, let me ask you this, if you have tested the new Mathews HD cam found on the LX then do your results coincide with what Mathews posted in their advertisment?

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

PABowhntr,

You are correct. This same discussion has been going on over at the Bowsite as well as at ArcheryTalk. I simply cut and pasted some of my remarks from my posts over there.

I have tested the cam +1/2 personally and love my Ultratec cam +1/2, but do agree with Mathews ad, I have watched the LX be tested and would concur as well based upon my observations. I however am not as much of a fan of the LX as I am the Q2XL.

You can tune and time the cam+1/2 for great performance, the notion that it doesn' t require this is absolute nonsense. Hoyt has built a terrific bow, but IMO has seriously misrepresented some issues for advertising purposes.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Nubb,

Thank you for the information.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Well Nubb, I' ve got to ask then. What have you done or seen done with the BowTech Duallys? Thinking about the Mathews add, I can only think that Mathews has dug a deeper hole for themselves in telling the world that the hybrid cam system is basically as dead as the dual cam bows. I' d also bet that you will never see a force draw mulitplier system on their bows either. I guess in all the world there dosen' t exist a compound bow that doesn' t need for the cam or cams to be set in a specific location for accuracy and performance. I guess I' ll stick with a dual cam and know that my time spent keeping my bow in tune will be equal to any other bow on the market. Then again maybe I' ll spend less time than most:D

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Walks,

Who said the hybrid was dead? I have loved Darton' s CPS for a long time and think Hoyt has done a great job of quieting it down. As for dual cams, I currently have a whole stable of them (including Bowtechs and Martins). I shoot a BK2 all the time with great pleasure. I am not a Patriot Dually fan however. I also love the PRO40. I am also a fan of the Q2XL and even like my Onieda.

Let' s face it, when properly set up; all of these high quality bows are superb (including the Mathews). People have to take advertising for what it is, just like magazine evaluations of bows. There are more superb bows available than one would know what to do with; there is also a fair amount of junk.

So what’s the point? Remembering that most advertising is just PROPOGANDA!!!
!

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Kind of like when Mathews first came out with their solo cams?[:o] Remember those adds?

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

My feeling is Mathews chose not to expound on how great their bows are; they' ve chosen to bash Hoyt. I don' t pay much attention to advertising. But I do feel put off by negative ads. This type of nonsense isn' t going to make me run out & buy a Mathews. That' s for sure.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Let' s face it....Compound Bows are a very mature technology!!

All " improvements" are incremental and truly quite small. Archery manufacturers are in business to sell bows period. They are always looking for a hook to sell you their latest product whether you need it or not.

Are this years bow hugely more accurate than the 2001 models?

Have scores hit great new levels?

We buy new bows because we love the novelty of it. We test bows for the fun of it.
The tinkering in search of near perfection is fun.

But in truth, who really gives a rats a$$ what the ads say?

A properly tuned cheapy two wheeler will shoot beautifully in the hands of a skilled archer.

Have Fun and TUNE YOUR BOW TO THE HIGHEST LEVEL YOU CAN, that' s the magic bullet!

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Nubbb:

You can' t say that! :D After all, we' ve GOT to sell those new models.:D

Honestly, we could probably make a decent living on bow repairs and tuning. But that wouldn' t curtail the biggest problems at hand - FIT, FORM, COMFORT and TUNE. :)

If the customer wants a new bow, we don' t emphasize any particular design. What we stress more than anything else is FIT, FORM, COMFORT and TUNE. Beyond that, you could shoot anything on the market successfully.;)

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Len,

Right you are amigo! It is truly a shame that so few archers have the benefit of someone such as yourself to steward them towards proper fit and a proper start.

While the engineers are striving for perfection at the right price point, the advertising boys are thinking up what BS they can stick in their new ads.

But I for one, am always anxious to play with the latest serious attempts to improve this rather mature product. Each year there are so many weasels claiming so called advances that you have to laugh, but then again there are usually a few nice minor improvements or sincere attempts at improving the breed that keep us buying and trying the new bows that you have GOT to sell.

I admit it, I am as guilty as anybody of wanting to play with and test the new models. That is the fun of it.... On the other hand, a well fitted, balanced, and tuned setup is such a joy to shoot be it new or old.

Plain and simple, too few archers seem to get there. They keep trying to buy what they can already have with their current bow.

As you pointed out FIT, FORM, COMFORT and TUNE are the keys to the Castle.

Cheers! Nubbb

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

you might be right about the limbs, although, I' ve had my darton for 4 years, and never had a limb problem . but - you want UGLY, just take a look at that dang riser hoyt makes!!!;)

and as far as being loud, my maverick is FAR from bein loud!

matthews is mad because hoyt made a better product? what a bunch of whiners!
but then hoyt wants to take all the credit for the cam 1/2, when they got the idea from darton? then their no better than matthews![:' (]

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

FFCT....I like that. If you do not mind I would like to mention those four little words to a customer or two when they walk in. :)

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Looks like Hoyt owner' s are the one' s doing most of the whining to me !! ;)

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Frank:

Go for it. No copyrights in this barn.:D

What this presents is the basic procedure that should be followed in setting up ANY bow. FIT the customer with the correct draw length, in the process you may have to correct his FORM (sometimes very diplomatically;)), make sure the whole set-up is COMFORTABLE to the archer (this includes things beyond draw length such as peep location), then TUNE it to the arrow while taking into consideration any form glitches that the archer may have.:)

Nubbb:

You' ve got a PM.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Thanks Len. It is nice to be able to be concise about it while at the same time having the ability to go into more detail when necessary.

Are you sure you do not want any royalties for the use of that method?

:D

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Personally i think that both companies make a great bow....and an ad in a magazine is not going to make me go out and buy a bow just because of that anyway. IMO i dont think there is anything wrong with having alittle fun with the compitition.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

There is no doubt in my mind that Mathews is feeling a little pressure from Hoyt. Every shop I' ve gone into says that the Hoyt line is selling just as, if not better then Mathews. I personally like Mathews bows, but think that the Hoyts are also nice. Mathews is just proving a point, and now it' s time to see what Hoyt is going to come back with! Mathews has done nothing wrong, but show people out in the world that you really have to look into things! I see the same thing going on in adds between Zebra twist and Winners choice! It' s all advertising and trying to win over people! Mathews in my opinion really doesn' t even need to advertise as most people in the archery world know of them and feel they are the best bow money can buy!

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Well we' ve gone from 2 cams to one cam and now a cam and 1/2.I will say after picking up a used maverick I have fallen in love with the CPS.It draws smooth,has a good valley and plenty of speed.It also has alot of draw length adjustability built in.Perhaps Darton should have done a better job marketing their bows.As for mathews they make some good bows.The LX and legacy are smooth and the valley is better.Mathews has allways done a good job marketing their products.I just think they have painted themselves into a corner with the singlecam.I think the curve for improvements has flattened out.It' s getting harder for them to invent new things to make people want too spend $700 bucks on a bow.I see them on their heels abit because they are not as much touting their bows as talking down the cam 1/2.This comes from a long time mathews shooter.

CB

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Ther' s nothing wrong with informing the public!
If somebody doesn' t expose it for what it is people will continue to buy their bows thinking ther are no timing issues!
If Mathews is wrong than it is up to hoyt to prove it and ask mathews for a retraction and an apology!
If you think for a minute that if Hoyt had a little dirt on Mathews to help give them an edge in the market place and wouldn' t use it your fooling yourself!
My brother owns the RazorTec he bought 2 months ago and he now is looking in to this!
What right does a company have to tell you there are no timing issues but it turns out there possibly are!
I' m interested to see what Hoyts reaction to this is!
It' s just like Republicans and Democrats, when one slips the other pounces. It' s Human Nature and our Animal Instinct!
You gotta Love It!;)

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Okay, this ad states that the Hoyt cam and a half system doesn' t have perfect nock travel. Now, look at the Mathews cam chart for nock travel in the ad. I am willing to bet that if I went and pulled a LX of the shelf, it wouldn' t have perfect nock travel as the ad suggests.

Now, who is trying to fool who here?????

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

BM, I just read the Hoyt response on another forum. They don' t deny that the LX has straight nock travel, they just say none of the other Mathews do. I think Nubb also posted on here that they had gotten similar results with an LX .

Hoyt' s response is interesting . Depending on how you look at it ! It will be interesting to see what you guys think. Personally I think it' s funny that Hoyt is going to be changing their 3 star advertising in favor of showing tournament wins. And although they made claims ........Mathews just blew all of them out of proportion !!;)

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

CBM

The letter I read didn' t deny or confirm the LX has level nock travel because they hadn' t tested it.


As far as the Hoyt is concerned and the star chart.


Timing-3 stars. It is an awesome bow that shoots awesome and the timing issue that some seem to be coming up with is the same issue that a 1 cam has.So the star rating would be pretty close in that regard(they both have 3).It states in the catalog that JUST LIKE A 1 CAM it requires no timing.We know that 1 cams require them to be timed, so the add at worst is just as false as Mathews claims. I have shot my bow with the cables twisted in many directions and it makes no difference in how accurate the bow is.I have my top module a little behind my bottom because I like the feel of the bow this way.



Low vibration-3 stars. No one disputes this.Both the 1 cam and cam 1/2 have 3 stars.



Speed-3 stars. I haven' t heard any complain about speed from them as well.Speed from a smooth pulling cam system is great for the person such as myself that doesn' t like heavy poundage.Both the 1 cam and 2 cam have 2 stars.This is because both need to have a hard break over to produce the same speed as the cam 1/2.


Solid wall-3 stars. Again this is accurate.This can actually be adjusted depending on what the shooter likes.Just twist the cables to rotate the modules to your desired wall.Withinin reason of course.A couple twist one way or the other.


Level nock travel-3 stars.Is it perfect?Maybe not, but it is given the same rating as a 2 cam and most 2 cams don' t have PERFECT nock travel either(again the star chart is accurate) .As far as mine, it is set up level at full draw(on a machine) and checks level in the static position.Maybe it has some up or down movement during the draw.I can' t say for sure but some say it isn' t nearly as bad as the add shows.So who is being truthull or misleading.I tend to think they are both being a bit misleading, but not lying.


cam symmetry-3 stars. Star chart says it is the same as the 2 cam.Again I have found this to be quite accurate.Unless you do as Mathews did and completely do something that you would not do to any bow,be it a 1 cam,2 cam or a cam 1/2.What they did can be done to a 1 cam.Who can' t make a cam rotate from where it was intended?


Quiet- 3 stars. The bow is extremely quiet when shot as purchased.Again the star chart is accurate.1 cams were given 3 stars also.2 cams were given 1 star.In general a 1 cam will not be nearly as quiet as a 1 cam or the cam 1/2.




Low maintenance-3 stars for the cam 1/2. 2 stars for a 1 cam and 1 star for a 2 cam.Again from my experience I can say this is an accurate assesment as well.Although,with a quality strings and cables,the issue becomes a very moot point for most bows.




Forgiving-3 stars. This is probably the best asset to this system.It does shoot the same when short drawn(up to about 3/8" ) and it come that way right out of the box.Again the star chart is accurate.



As you can see,I don' t think that Mathews proved anything with their add.Except that they are willing to do or say whatever they want, to sell a bow. Their add was imo more misleading than any of Hoyts claims.


I had nothing against Mathews bows or the company untill now.I think the add was in poor taste and didn' t need to be done in this way.They can try to claim there bows are better.That is their advertising departments job.I just don' t think that saying your competitor is lying about their bows because you are losing sales is the thing to do. I talked to the shop owner today and he can say that in his shop that Hoyt has taken up to 40% of Mathews sales.That is the reason for the add and they weren' t concerned how misleading they were being in slamming Hoyt.


I have shot many bows and shot in many states and never heard an individual,be it pro or just a regular Joe try to discredit a bow or company in this fashion(unless it is between friends in a good hearted manner).If I did,I would not have listened and turned and walked away.

This what I think we all need to do with this add.TURN AND WALK AWAY.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

After Mathews' new ad ,Hoyt now says the LX wasn' t available for testing. Hoyt didn' t place in their ad that their 3 star rating was based on 2002 or previous models. If you and I read the same thing ,Hoyt in their new statement, refers to Mathews' straightline cam which came out in 1996 (?) !
I don' t think Mathews was right for placing the ad they did, but don' t sit back and tell me that Hoyt is a saint either !! If they were , I seriously doubt they would now be changing their advertising in future publications!

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

CBM

I am not saying that anyone is a saint.

Advertising is meant to make your product look as good as possible.I don' t think that bashing another company does that but rather makes the ones doing it look childish.It is working.We are all talking about it.Now people will go to the shops to see what all the hoopla is about and while they are there they will check out both bows.A few sales will be made for both companies.


I do think that Hoyts star chart is much more accurate than the Mathews add.The add is set up to be very bias.The test was rigged,plain and simple.


Where have you seen that they are changing there strategy.I am sure that with all the wins that they will use them to advertise but I havn' t seen them pull away from there star chart.This is just good advertising imo.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

Politics and advertising go hand n hand ya gotta love ' em!!! I try not to pay attention to either one, when the commercials come on when I am watching TV I mute it.

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

TFox, Don' t know if it will offend anyone.....so over on another popular forum there is a thread called " The Hoyt Response" it has several paragraphs pasted of Hoyt responses.
Don' t get me wrong either.....like I said , I don' t agree with Mathews on this , but I think Hoyt did their part in this also. And your completely right " They both win" we are giving them the publicity they sought ! [8D]

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

If Mathews is honestly better than Hoyt (which I wouldn' t know because I don' t shoot either) than they have every right to prove it. If Hoyt lied to their customers, than I think anyone, including Mathews has the right to prove them wrong. Mike,-

RE: Has anyone seen the new mathews advertizemnt?
 

CBM


I have read the response and I like the way Hoyt has handled it so far.They sent the letter to their dealers.This gives the dealers a chance to use the info provided as they wish.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]